12-16-19 10:33 AM
45 12
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  1. Rebellwin's Avatar
    I just recently found out about E, formerly known as eelo, a mobile operating system that is built from Android but without any built-in Google services.

    The purpose of this is to keep the Android interface intact, but without the tracking, personalized ads, and selling of user data that Google does.

    I personally love this idea, and would like to see BlackBerry phones paired up with this operating system. Since it's built from Android, it is designed to work seamlessly with Android smartphones without losing any app functionality. In fact, there are currently around 90 Android phones that are compatible with E, and if you have a compatible phone you can download the OS and test it for yourself. I'll post the list here: https://doc.e.foundation/devices/

    How do you guys feel about this potential, BlackBerry hardware/services + EOS combination? I personally reached out to the developer of EOS, who is the developer of Mandrake Linux btw, to request if the recent/Android BlackBerry devices could be compatible with E. If you support this idea, I'd recommend doing the same.

    Info from E website: https://e.foundation/
    Developer contact: contact@e.email
    Last edited by Rebellwin; 11-23-19 at 10:28 AM.
    11-22-19 05:52 PM
  2. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Not possible. BB hardware is designed to accept only OS files cryptographically signed by BB Ltd, so third-party OSs cannot be installed, and BB Ltd. has zero interest in being involved in putting third-party OSs on its hardware.
    11-23-19 12:17 PM
  3. Rebellwin's Avatar
    Not possible. BB hardware is designed to accept only OS files cryptographically signed by BB Ltd, so third-party OSs cannot be installed, and BB Ltd. has zero interest in being involved in putting third-party OSs on its hardware.
    Are you suggesting that BlackBerry cannot cryptographically sign EOS files? Besides, EOS is identical to Android, since it was built from Android. It just isn't loaded with Google services by default. It's also an optional download, unless you buy a phone from the E foundation preconfigured to run EOS on it.
    11-23-19 01:33 PM
  4. howarmat's Avatar
    BB phones will not run another android version. Only what BB designs from their devs. if you want to another OS/ROM then BB is not for you and you should buy something else.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-23-19 01:57 PM
  5. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Are you suggesting that BlackBerry cannot cryptographically sign EOS files?
    No, I am saying that they WILL NOT. The fact that they are contractually prohibited from doing so isn't the only reason - they would also become legally responsible for that code. They will not get involved, and any OS changes require their involvement.

    It's been widely understood for more than a decade that BB hardware is not the choice for anyone wanting to make their own changes to the OS, because BB specifically prevents that.
    11-23-19 02:35 PM
  6. Rebellwin's Avatar
    No, I am saying that they WILL NOT. The fact that they are contractually prohibited from doing so isn't the only reason - they would also become legally responsible for that code. They will not get involved, and any OS changes require their involvement.

    It's been widely understood for more than a decade that BB hardware is not the choice for anyone wanting to make their own changes to the OS, because BB specifically prevents that.
    Sure, they prevent that. They can also change it. The same way they chose to use Android os, they can choose to run EOS. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect this to just happen easily. There has to be enough support for it. If BlackBerry is serious about privacy and security like they claim they are, then they will move away from Android and Google. We know the only reason they moved to Google in the first place was because BlackBerry os was not profitable any more. There was literally no other choice if they wanted to continue making phones. Not because it was not secure. In fact it's been widely agreed on by tech reviewers that the Android BlackBerrys are the least secure out of all BlackBerry phones. I'm suggesting a more secure alternative to Google without sacrificing the familiarity and ease of Android.
    11-23-19 02:51 PM
  7. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    BB Ltd isn't in the smartphone business and hasn't been since 2016. They left the business because their sales were falling and they couldn't make it profitable. They then licensed their name, some tech, and their version of the OS to 3 licensees, who have all failed to turn a profit and have abandoned the project. That's the end of the line.

    BB has no interest in pouring money into a line of business that they spend hundreds of millions of dollars to get away from, and one that's continued to prove to be unprofitable. They're focused on other lines of business where they have a chance at significant profits, but these aren't consumer-based products. BB won't be going back to the consumer hardware market, and they're not going to mess with the products of their licensees. They'd be sued if they did, but even if that wasn't the case, that's not who BB Ltd. is.

    BB is content to let the existing devices run out their useful lives, but they won't be doing anything extra.
    11-23-19 09:38 PM
  8. Rebellwin's Avatar

    BB won't be going back to the consumer hardware market, and they're not going to mess with the products of their licensees. They'd be sued if they did, but even if that wasn't the case, that's not who BB Ltd. is.

    BB is content to let the existing devices run out their useful lives, but they won't be doing anything extra.
    Makes sense, but I'm not talking about the hardware market. This is about software. What about the licensees? TCL doesn't have to go out of their way to allow compatibility on BlackBerry Androids with EOS. I'd hardly call it doing anything extra. They have nothing to lose really, as E foundation is non profit. They're not doing business with these smartphone manufacturers. They're simply making them compatible. The licensing is for BlackBerry, not for Android. I don't see how they would get sued for any of that? (Talking about TCL, not BlackBerry).
    11-24-19 06:45 AM
  9. Rebellwin's Avatar
    BB phones will not run another android version. Only what BB designs from their devs. if you want to another OS/ROM then BB is not for you and you should buy something else.
    BlackBerry was for me when it wasn't running Android. It's not a bad os by any means, but considering Google's obsession with our data, I find it difficult to have one and feel secure. Thank you guys for your insight though. Was wanting to see how anyone else felt about this possibility.
    11-24-19 06:51 AM
  10. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    The TCL hardware is still designed to require BB Ltd's signature, and BB Ltd doesn't want some other OS running on phones with its brand name on it.

    Look, you're about the thousandth person to come up with a version of this idea, and make all of the same arguments, but it's never going to happen. And when I say "never", I'm not exaggerating to make a point, I'm being literal.
    John Albert likes this.
    11-24-19 12:21 PM
  11. the_boon's Avatar
    The TCL hardware is still designed to require BB Ltd's signature, and BB Ltd doesn't want some other OS running on phones with its brand name on it.

    Look, you're about the thousandth person to come up with a version of this idea, and make all of the same arguments, but it's never going to happen. And when I say "never", I'm not exaggerating to make a point, I'm being literal.
    What about taking say an SD625 from another Android device and putting it in a KEYone (or 636 for LE or 660 for KEY2) would that render the device as if it's a generic Android phone where the CPU came from?
    11-24-19 12:54 PM
  12. conite's Avatar
    What about taking say an SD625 from another Android device and putting it in a KEYone (or 636 for LE or 660 for KEY2) would that render the device as if it's a generic Android phone where the CPU came from?
    Nope.
    11-24-19 04:21 PM
  13. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Makes sense, but I'm not talking about the hardware market. This is about software. What about the licensees? TCL doesn't have to go out of their way to allow compatibility on BlackBerry Androids with EOS. I'd hardly call it doing anything extra. They have nothing to lose really, as E foundation is non profit. They're not doing business with these smartphone manufacturers. They're simply making them compatible. The licensing is for BlackBerry, not for Android. I don't see how they would get sued for any of that? (Talking about TCL, not BlackBerry).
    TCL cannot control the OS permissions on their phones. BlackBerry Limited still controls the keys 100%. If someone wanted to pay BlackBerry enough money, guaranteed, it might be something they would consider, but that's the only scenario where it could happen.

    BlackBerry would only sign an OS if they were 1) paid to do it; and 2) performed a full security audit to ensure that it was properly hardened.

    Also, there would be no updates available unless BlackBerry was paid to review that code and sign each update as well.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    11-24-19 04:28 PM
  14. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    What about taking say an SD625 from another Android device and putting it in a KEYone (or 636 for LE or 660 for KEY2) would that render the device as if it's a generic Android phone where the CPU came from?
    If you tamper with any element of a BlackBerry phone that involves the OS it will not pass the hardware root of trust based OS integrity test at startup, and it simply will not boot. You could, if you just wanted the form factor, replace the entire system board and just keep the sensors and case, but that's the only way you could bring another OS to the BlackBerry form factor. But you'd be responsible for all connections and the drivers for the sensors speakers and screen, as well as the OS.

    Also, while you could do that for a personal phone, as an extreme hobbyist, you couldn't manufacture such phones as BlackBerry devices without a license from BlackBerry.

    But, if you bought used phones and modded them like that, I'm sure you could find some buyers! I just don't know if you could make money at it.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    11-24-19 04:36 PM
  15. the_boon's Avatar
    If you tamper with any element of a BlackBerry phone that involves the OS it will not pass the hardware root of trust based OS integrity test at startup, and it simply will not boot. You could, if you just wanted the form factor, replace the entire system board and just keep the sensors and case, but that's the only way you could bring another OS to the BlackBerry form factor. But you'd be responsible for all connections and the drivers for the sensors speakers and screen, as well as the OS.

    Also, while you could do that for a personal phone, as an extreme hobbyist, you couldn't manufacture such phones as BlackBerry devices without a license from BlackBerry.

    But, if you bought used phones and modded them like that, I'm sure you could find some buyers! I just don't know if you could make money at it.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    Ok but you're saying the opposite of what conite is saying, that it can be done.

    However, how would we know if say in the case of the KEYone, that another phone that has the same processor would also have the exact same motherboard dimensions, meaning plug and play.

    Sounds like too much of a long shot to me but if I were to experiment with such a thing, I'd grab a Priv and another device running on an 808 but that's been updated to a newer version of Android like Nougat or Oreo.

    But still, it sounds like a stretch that I'd just be able to swap motherboards and the thing would just work like a charm
    11-24-19 05:27 PM
  16. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Ok but you're saying the opposite of what conite is saying, that it can be done.

    However, how would we know if say in the case of the KEYone, that another phone that has the same processor would also have the exact same motherboard dimensions, meaning plug and play.

    Sounds like too much of a long shot to me but if I were to experiment with such a thing, I'd grab a Priv and another device running on an 808 but that's been updated to a newer version of Android like Nougat or Oreo.

    But still, it sounds like a stretch that I'd just be able to swap motherboards and the thing would just work like a charm
    No. Conite is talking about loading the OS on the TCL-manufactured device, which can't be done. I'm talking about throwing out the TCL internals and replacing them entirely. You would only have the case, battery, camera, speakers, microphone and screen.

    In automotive terms, I'm talking about ripping out the engine, transmission, exhaust system, electronics, etc., just leaving the body, battery, headlights, steering wheel, seats, etc.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    11-24-19 05:32 PM
  17. co4nd's Avatar
    Most people want Google services.
    11-24-19 06:01 PM
  18. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Most people want Google services.
    Exactly. There's only a very, very tiny niche of people who are willing to give up all of the features and services that Google offers in their bid for more privacy (ironically, some people in this niche go ahead and install similar apps from other, less-audited companies, which I've always found bizarre), and it's not enough to be profitable, as every pro-privacy phone that's made it to the market has failed financially.

    Neither BB nor TCL has any interest in doing anything that isn't profitable, so any idea or proposal has to start with a very realistic look at that idea's profitability, based not on "I think it should..." or "there ought to be a way" but rather based on the 10+ years of sales history, and on BB's and TCL's current financial situations.

    This idea is a complete non-starter from BB's point of view, and since BB controls the OS files that will run on the hardware, that's where this idea starts and stops.

    Of course, you could (assuming you had the capital) design an entirely new motherboard to replace the existing one and then install on it whatever you liked, but you're talking tens of millions of dollars in development and manufacturing at the very minimum. Unless you're a bored billionaire looking for a way to dispose of large sums of money, there's no path to profitability there.
    11-24-19 08:51 PM
  19. the_boon's Avatar
    No. Conite is talking about loading the OS on the TCL-manufactured device, which can't be done. I'm talking about throwing out the TCL internals and replacing them entirely. You would only have the case, battery, camera, speakers, microphone and screen.

    In automotive terms, I'm talking about ripping out the engine, transmission, exhaust system, electronics, etc., just leaving the body, battery, headlights, steering wheel, seats, etc.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    Right, so say for example you dissect a Priv and throw in the motherboard of an LG G4 which had the same processor but maybe got Android Nougat.

    But with all the custom PKB components, who knows if it would play nice with the alien motherboard.
    11-24-19 09:07 PM
  20. pgg101's Avatar
    I don't see the point in having Android without Google Services. It's like circa 2014 using the Android runtime on BB10. Not interested in that. I'd rather use iOS than a non-Google certified Android.
    pdr733 and cribble2k like this.
    11-24-19 10:56 PM
  21. Rebellwin's Avatar
    I don't see the point in having Android without Google Services. It's like circa 2014 using the Android runtime on BB10. Not interested in that. I'd rather use iOS than a non-Google certified Android.
    The point is there's very little other choice on the market. It really comes down to an iPhone or Android. There are reasons to dislike both. I might be in the "minority" of people who support this idea, but that's only because BlackBerry has branded their devices as the most trustworthy, secure, and private. If they have no interest in furthering that agenda, then I'd say that's false advertising for the brand. I wouldn't even suggest it if I didn't think it was something that could be done, but business is business. I understand why they wouldn't go the route of something they'd consider non-profitable.
    11-25-19 01:04 AM
  22. cribble2k's Avatar

    BlackBerry would only sign an OS if they were 1) paid to do it; and 2) performed a full security audit to ensure that it was properly hardened.
    Citation needed.....
    11-25-19 04:28 AM
  23. nevilleadaniels's Avatar
    BB phones will not run another android version. Only what BB designs from their devs. if you want to another OS/ROM then BB is not for you and you should buy something else.
    EOS can run on older phones such as the Passport. And Blackberry have been looking into this since they still have a considerable stock of older phones including the Passport and the Classic.

    As to wether they would do it or not is another matter.
    Last edited by nevilleadaniels; 11-25-19 at 10:49 AM.
    11-25-19 04:55 AM
  24. kvndoom's Avatar
    The point is there's very little other choice on the market. It really comes down to an iPhone or Android. There are reasons to dislike both. I might be in the "minority" of people who support this idea, but that's only because BlackBerry has branded their devices as the most trustworthy, secure, and private. If they have no interest in furthering that agenda, then I'd say that's false advertising for the brand. I wouldn't even suggest it if I didn't think it was something that could be done, but business is business. I understand why they wouldn't go the route of something they'd consider non-profitable.
    Multiple companies (Microsoft, BlackBerry, Amazon) threw billions of dollars each at alternatives to the duopoly and failed horribly. Every failed phone OS since the iPhone debuted has had one thing in common: lack of a thriving app store. No matter how good the OS is (and I'll be the first to tell you that bb10 was the best OS ever), if it doesn't meet customer needs as a platform it can't survive. Amazon tried the "Android without Google Play" thing already.

    Just think if they had put that money towards world hunger.
    11-25-19 05:30 AM
  25. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    The point is there's very little other choice on the market. It really comes down to an iPhone or Android. There are reasons to dislike both. I might be in the "minority" of people who support this idea, but that's only because BlackBerry has branded their devices as the most trustworthy, secure, and private. If they have no interest in furthering that agenda, then I'd say that's false advertising for the brand. I wouldn't even suggest it if I didn't think it was something that could be done, but business is business. I understand why they wouldn't go the route of something they'd consider non-profitable.
    That’s just how life goes. We’re not entitled to additional choices when people literally, don’t choose it, when those people had the chance and refused to.
    11-25-19 07:33 AM
45 12

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