08-02-14 04:20 PM
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  1. spikesolie's Avatar
    They're buying:

    • The best brand-image on the market and an aspirational product for many.
    • Access to the best app ecosystem on the market.
    • The best after-sale support system on the market (Apple Stores, Genius Bar, etc).
    • The best-supported device by third parties.
    • Seamless integration with other Apple products.
    • A platform where ease-of-use and user experience is a very high priority.


    Keep in mind that this is coming from an Android guy who refuses to buy Apple products. There's no denying Apple's many strengths. I'm a DJ, and I use a laptop along with a DJ controller and software to DJ. My controller can actually be hooked up to an iPad or iPhone instead of a laptop and has full functionality! I hate to admit it, but I can't even get that on Android! And that's just one of many, MANY examples of what Apple's rigid standardization and market position allows and encourages developers and third parties to do with aftermarket accessories, software, and usage models.



    Regarding BB: BB simply cannot price BB10 handsets at low prices - because they have to bear all the costs of their own OS, ecosystem, and of course, developing and manufacturing the hardware too, they MUST be able to sell their devices at a premium price in order to be successful. That's why you aren't likely to see a $499 or even $599 Passport - BB will have to price it towards the higher end of the market in order to recoup all of the development costs.

    Companies that make Android or Win Phones can compete on price, because they aren't paying for OS or ecosystem development - they just have to get the OS working on the hardware they put together and do some industrial design of the case. It's a completely different business model, but one where BB cannot play effectively in, which is why BB is trying to focus on regulated enterprises, where they believe they can still get the premium for their devices.
    None of the jargon you listed actually justifies the PHONE ITSELF! For example the ecosystem you talk about doesn't come free.
    The best brand image has little to do with the quality phone either. Jargon just jargons

    Posted via CB10
    07-24-14 12:34 AM
  2. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    None of the jargon you listed actually justifies the PHONE ITSELF! For example the ecosystem you talk about doesn't come free.
    The best brand image has little to do with the quality phone either. Jargon just jargons
    You call it jargon, but sales numbers say that a huge number of smartphone buyers CARE about those things, even if you do not.

    And your "for example" is pretty meaningless. I said they have ACCESS to the best app ecosystem, and they do - I never said it was free. But BB, for example, can't get many of those apps at ANY price, and, yes, a great many of them are things that CAN'T be done from a web browser.

    Whether those things matter to YOU personally is irrelevant - they clearly matter to the smartphone market in general, and that's what we're talking about here.
    JeepBB, TGR1, LuvULongTime and 4 others like this.
    07-24-14 01:26 AM
  3. chalx's Avatar
    Simply, Blackberry cannot position itself anywhere near Apple. If they cannot find revenue in price segment between $200 - $400, they should consider to offer some other OS.
    Sent from my RM-892_eu_finland_202 using Tapatalk
    07-24-14 01:50 AM
  4. --TommesJay--'s Avatar
    Don't be mad bro, i've read some of your other posts, and now i get it. You're that guy. Calling people stupid or telling them to shut up just because they disagree with your opinions, tisk tisk.

    And no, you STILL don't get my post, that much is clear my friend.

    Now shut up. ( that's an homage )
    Oh yeah I totally get your point. BlackBerry should just go for a lower price to hit more demand like let's say Xiaomi (which is wrong) because if Xiaomi can afford that, BlackBerry can too (which is also wrong). Because after all the Passport has some internals that are a tad lower end than in competing phones, like let's say a Snapdragon 800 instead of an 801 you find in 350 Dollar China phones. And the reason why BlackBerry should go for lower price points is because people don't care about the cost structure behind their products. Oh and that custom designed 1:1 full hd screen, 4 microphones, stereo speakers, a Paratek antenna for best in class reception, the capacitive hardware keyboard and things like that don't count in the specs department, even though you won't find them in any competing phone (safe the speakers and microphones in a few premium priced devices).

    And no we don't talk opinions here. Comparing BlackBerry to a Xiaomi concerning price/internals ratio is just stupid idiocy.
    07-24-14 02:21 AM
  5. SenorPistachio's Avatar
    Your opinion mate.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by SenorPistachio; 07-24-14 at 03:17 AM.
    07-24-14 03:00 AM
  6. Katika99's Avatar
    We are talking about blackberry smartphone and price etc.. and I read some stupid things like " go to hell because you don't deserve a Passport "... smh

    Some guys here are crazy.

    Posted via my Q10
    07-24-14 03:31 AM
  7. JeepBB's Avatar
    We are talking about blackberry smartphone and price etc.. and I read some stupid things like " go to hell because you don't deserve a Passport "... smh

    Some guys here are crazy.

    Posted via my Q10

    Oh, that level of slightly-disconnected-from-reality abuse is routine round here. LOL

    Welcome to CrackBerry!
    Rello, Tre Lawrence, TGR1 and 1 others like this.
    07-24-14 03:44 AM
  8. --TommesJay--'s Avatar
    We are talking about blackberry smartphone and price etc.. and I read some stupid things like " go to hell because you don't deserve a Passport "... smh

    Some guys here are crazy.

    Posted via my Q10
    Sounds crazy at first but if you actually read up on it it does make sense. Yes we're talking prices. And what's really crazy is when people demand from BlackBerry to offer devices at prices Chinese Android-OEMs offer phones at. Anyone who claims that and only judges something like a Passport by the chipset it uses doesn't deserve one, YES.

    It's like complaining that 100 g Parmigiano Reggiano costs the same as 250 g young Cheddar cheese, because after all you can eat both and both have the same amount of proteine in them. Lol

    In almost every industry in the world western companies have the problem to compete with dirt cheap Chinese offerings these days.
    spikesolie likes this.
    07-24-14 06:23 AM
  9. ed_209's Avatar
    In almost every industry in the world western companies have the problem to compete with dirt cheap Chinese offerings these days.
    That mob based in Cupertino seem to be doing alright
    07-24-14 07:09 AM
  10. --TommesJay--'s Avatar
    That mob based in Cupertino seem to be doing alright
    Of course they do. Because an iPhone is far from being barebone hardware.
    spikesolie likes this.
    07-24-14 08:12 AM
  11. reeneebob's Avatar
    None of the jargon you listed actually justifies the PHONE ITSELF! For example the ecosystem you talk about doesn't come free.
    The best brand image has little to do with the quality phone either. Jargon just jargons

    Posted via CB10
    Those lower specs run the phone more smoothly than any phone with twice the specs. Because Apple has optimised the OS for its commissioned components.

    After using spec'd out the wazoo Android phones over the years, I've never had a smooth and efficient phone experience like on my iPhone. Even on my 4 iOS 7 ran smoothly. Slower than on my 5? Sure. Still smoother than my GS3 ran android with touchwiz and 3 times the specs? Absolutely.

    Don't think for one second that OS optimization can't make up for 'lower specs'. If anything I'd say the ability to do more with less is pretty damn impressive.

    Hell, speaking of optimization, I unplugged my Q5 and 5S last night at 1130 before bed. When I woke up this morning, in idle standby the 5S was still at 100% (and that's on iOS 8 beta 4, not even a final release OS) and my Q5 was at 91%. I have no social media running on the Q5 and we get no enterprise mail overnight so in standby mode doing far less work with none of the accounts I have on my iPhone, the Q5 blew through almost 10% battery sitting with its screen off.

    Not as bad as my Z10 (nothing I've owned can ever match the brutal battery performance of the Z10) but that's a small thing that matters to me. And don't get me wrong, I'm not disappointed in the battery on the Q5. But it's pretty impressive that a beta release of the OS for a phone that most people here claim discharges battery if you look at it wrong can idle that efficiently.

    As it is I'm regularly making it from 11PM to 11PM on both phones with substantial battery to spare so I'm happy. But you asked about the specs, and low specced iPhone performed as smoothly as the most smoothly operating Android phone I've ever used, the HTC One M8...and that phone has over double the 'power'.

    Posted via CB10
    07-24-14 10:37 AM
  12. ed_209's Avatar
    Of course they do. Because an iPhone is far from being barebone hardware.
    Isn't that the point? No one can compete with China in terms of manufacturing costs, so firms have to differentiate product? Like it or not, Apple do this with their brand and their design and do it very well.

    Xiaomi use what is now a very ubiquitous mobile OS. But their hardware is far from the "barebones" Android landfill we're used to seeing from China.
    07-24-14 10:49 AM
  13. SenorPistachio's Avatar
    Sounds crazy at first but if you actually read up on it it does make sense. Yes we're talking prices. And what's really crazy is when people demand from BlackBerry to offer devices at prices Chinese Android-OEMs offer phones at. Anyone who claims that and only judges something like a Passport by the chipset it uses doesn't deserve one, YES.

    It's like complaining that 100 g Parmigiano Reggiano costs the same as 250 g young Cheddar cheese, because after all you can eat both and both have the same amount of proteine in them. Lol

    In almost every industry in the world western companies have the problem to compete with dirt cheap Chinese offerings these days.
    It's fun to lie right? Cause that's not what i said.

    Maybe i should try it in German.
    07-24-14 11:07 AM
  14. spikesolie's Avatar
    You call it jargon, but sales numbers say that a huge number of smartphone buyers CARE about those things, even if you do not.

    And your "for example" is pretty meaningless. I said they have ACCESS to the best app ecosystem, and they do - I never said it was free. But BB, for example, can't get many of those apps at ANY price, and, yes, a great many of them are things that CAN'T be done from a web browser.

    Whether those things matter to YOU personally is irrelevant - they clearly matter to the smartphone market in general, and that's what we're talking about here.
    Can blackberry run those same app? Yes. I don't care about what the market is buying. I've seen it first hand several reasons why the market would choose apple.

    We are comparing phones.. not ecosystems, not brand image to look cool... JUST THE PHONES. the guy argued he'd pay for a note because of the top line spec... and my point is outside of tech savvy communities, a lot of people do not even know how to relate those spec parts. They like apple because they are used to it or it satisfied their needs.. and samsung because it's the alternative to apple. Extreme alternative. Pretty much anything people hate about apple is reversed in Samsung.

    My point is the majority of people I've met with iPhones didn't buy it for
    1. Ecosystem
    2. Integration.

    Most of them do not even know what to integrate of with. They just equate phone = iPhone.

    So if I told someone I needed a new phone, which I did back when I was looking, 100% of the answers were... get an iPhone. no one told me why I should.

    How many people even know how to relate the A7 chip to snapdragons or what exactly snapdragon is?

    Posted via CB10
    ladeberry likes this.
    07-24-14 11:58 AM
  15. --TommesJay--'s Avatar
    It's fun to lie right? Cause that's not what i said.

    Maybe i should try it in German.
    What about speaking clear then? You were the one to bring up Xiaomi as a prime example of how it's done right and talked about their specs/price ratio, claiming that everything else being equal Xiaomi chooses to push down the price in favor of more shipments.

    If all you wanted to say is "BlackBerry should price the Passport at 499-599 off contract" then just say it, leave it at that and especially leave out all that Xiaomi crap.
    spikesolie likes this.
    07-24-14 11:59 AM
  16. spikesolie's Avatar
    Those lower specs run the phone more smoothly than any phone with twice the specs. Because Apple has optimised the OS for its commissioned components.

    After using spec'd out the wazoo Android phones over the years, I've never had a smooth and efficient phone experience like on my iPhone. Even on my 4 iOS 7 ran smoothly. Slower than on my 5? Sure. Still smoother than my GS3 ran android with touchwiz and 3 times the specs? Absolutely.

    Don't think for one second that OS optimization can't make up for 'lower specs'. If anything I'd say the ability to do more with less is pretty damn impressive.

    Hell, speaking of optimization, I unplugged my Q5 and 5S last night at 1130 before bed. When I woke up this morning, in idle standby the 5S was still at 100% (and that's on iOS 8 beta 4, not even a final release OS) and my Q5 was at 91%. I have no social media running on the Q5 and we get no enterprise mail overnight so in standby mode doing far less work with none of the accounts I have on my iPhone, the Q5 blew through almost 10% battery sitting with its screen off.

    Not as bad as my Z10 (nothing I've owned can ever match the brutal battery performance of the Z10) but that's a small thing that matters to me. And don't get me wrong, I'm not disappointed in the battery on the Q5. But it's pretty impressive that a beta release of the OS for a phone that most people here claim discharges battery if you look at it wrong can idle that efficiently.

    As it is I'm regularly making it from 11PM to 11PM on both phones with substantial battery to spare so I'm happy. But you asked about the specs, and low specced iPhone performed as smoothly as the most smoothly operating Android phone I've ever used, the HTC One M8...and that phone has over double the 'power'.

    Posted via CB10
    Well wasn't that my point? The guy says when he buys a note he's paying for the top of the line spec... and what exactly is he paying for the passport? And I'm saying specs do not mean much if the os is optimized. Which is why I brought in the apple debate. What do people pay for in the phone itself?

    The apple phone isn't anywhere near top spec'd but it almost never lagged on me when I use one.. if it was lagging like a phone made in 2005 people wouldn't buy it .

    Posted via CB10
    reeneebob likes this.
    07-24-14 12:03 PM
  17. --TommesJay--'s Avatar
    Can blackberry run those same app? Yes. I don't care about what the market is buying. I've seen it first hand several reasons why the market would choose apple.

    We are comparing phones.. not ecosystems, not brand image to look cool... JUST THE PHONES. the guy argued he'd pay for a note because of the top line spec... and my point is outside of tech savvy communities, a lot of people do not even know how to relate those spec parts. They like apple because they are used to it or it satisfied their needs.. and samsung because it's the alternative to apple. Extreme alternative. Pretty much anything people hate about apple is reversed in Samsung.

    My point is the majority of people I've met with iPhones didn't buy it for
    1. Ecosystem
    2. Integration.

    Most of them do not even know what to integrate of with. They just equate phone = iPhone.

    So if I told someone I needed a new phone, which I did back when I was looking, 100% of the answers were... get an iPhone. no one told me why I should.

    How many people even know how to relate the A7 chip to snapdragons or what exactly snapdragon is?

    Posted via CB10
    So true, exactly my experience as well. This whole ecosystem BS is overrated if you think about average Joe and Jane. Tech savvy people in communities like these always ask questions like "why would someone whos so heavily invested in the iOS or Android ecosystem switch to BlackBerry?" when in reality the "investment" the majority of average people in their phones have is like a few songs, videos, photos, contacts, calendar and email, all you can move to ANY phone.
    07-24-14 12:08 PM
  18. reeneebob's Avatar
    Well wasn't that my point? The guy says when he buys a note he's paying for the top of the line spec... and what exactly is he paying for the passport? And I'm saying specs do not mean much if the os is optimized. Which is why I brought in the apple debate. What do people pay for in the phone itself?

    The apple phone isn't anywhere near top spec'd but it almost never lagged on me when I use one.. if it was lagging like a phone made in 2005 people wouldn't buy it .

    Posted via CB10
    Ah okay got ya. I was listening to a conference call when I was answering so I misread.
    07-24-14 12:10 PM
  19. deptech's Avatar
    That just makes no sense. Most people don't JUST look at something and pass judgment and make opinions. Some people look at something, read the specs, read reviews and do as much research as they can. Then they make judgements and form opinions. So you don't make opinions on a new car unless you drive it? Despite the fact that you can read all about it's specs, look at pictures, etc.
    So if I don't like an SUV (too big, gas hog, just don't like the look, whatever) because I prefer a car, even though I never drove an SUV, I have no right to judge it or make an opinion?
    Not actually using an object, no matter what that object is, does not automatically mean you can not make an INFORMED decision of whether that device is bad, good, stupid or whatever.
    What makes no sense is why you choose to comment in such a manner. Many people have already passed judgment on the Passport without having used the device, and that is with very limited information. The proof is in the comments of the originally posted article (see link in original post), and that is the issue I presented, it's real and it has already happened. Again, it has nothing to do with what you replied to above, perhaps a miscommunication.

    Z30 on 10.2.1 in Kitchener (Canada)
    07-24-14 12:13 PM
  20. lift's Avatar
    What makes no sense is why you choose to comment in such a manner. Many people have already passed judgment on the Passport without having used the device, and that is with very limited information. The proof is in the comments of the originally posted article (see link in original post), and that is the issue I presented, it's real and it has already happened. Again, it has nothing to do with what you replied to above, perhaps a miscommunication.

    Z30 on 10.2.1 in Kitchener (Canada)
    I will say it again. Almost everybody on this forum has not used a Passport. You included. They have all made opinions and comments about the device and have made informed decisions as to whether they are going to buy it or not. Almost everyone here has also passed judgement, good and bad. So again, what are you trying to say? Just because YOU haven't used it, nobody else can make a decision, judgement or opinion because they haven't used it either?
    07-24-14 12:29 PM
  21. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    So true, exactly my experience as well. This whole ecosystem BS is overrated if you think about average Joe and Jane. Tech savvy people in communities like these always ask questions like "why would someone whos so heavily invested in the iOS or Android ecosystem switch to BlackBerry?" when in reality the "investment" the majority of average people in their phones have is like a few songs, videos, photos, contacts, calendar and email, all you can move to ANY phone.
    Nah... easy access to content is key IMHO. Folks might not use the term "ecosystem" when they make decisions, but I believe the platforms that tackle this issue invariably win. When BBRY had a better ecosystem, it did well.

    As mobile devices become better business and casual hubs, it is key to have access to extended tools that a healthy ecosystem brings. A good, well-connected ecosystem encourages consumers to buy other pieces, and profitability is achieved and maintained.

    BBRY can make excellent devices till the cows come home, but until the ecosystem problem is figured out, it'll be tough going. Samsung doesn't use Android because it especially loves green mascots. It has several OS options.
    TgeekB and JeepBB like this.
    07-24-14 12:34 PM
  22. TGR1's Avatar
    Dude you're hilarious. I don't expect a 699 pricetag on this, more like 599, but that aside, the problem BlackBerry REALLY faces are people like you that have no idea about what goes into developing such a phone as the Passport and see it as overpriced because it doesn't have the very latest chipset or lacks an USB standard (which is by the way remained to be seen). Lol. The cost of those standardized parts you get for a few bucks fifty doesn't say anything about the quality of the final product, except, well, you're an Android OEM, especially located in China.

    I give up on you and let them price the thing at 599 or even 649, which would be nothing but right.
    You are correct about the reality of resources being put in but to be blunt, you are missing the forest for the trees. What you mentioned doesn't matter to the average consumer. In most eyes, it's BBRY's problem to deal with. You even see it all the time on this forum. "Why can't BBRY..." What they want is an attractive phone with features they either need/desire at a really good price. What BBRY has to put into it is irrelevant when they see Item A that is kinda the same as Item B but a lot more money. And unfortunately that is the dilemma for BBRY and handset makers who put a lot of originality into their stuff. If it doesn't resonate with the customer, it's not a strong selling point.
    SenorPistachio likes this.
    07-24-14 01:04 PM
  23. spikesolie's Avatar
    You are correct about the reality of resources being put in but to be blunt, you are missing the forest for the trees. What you mentioned doesn't matter to the average consumer. In most eyes, it's BBRY's problem to deal with. You even see it all the time on this forum. "Why can't BBRY..." What they want is an attractive phone with features they either need/desire at a really good price. What BBRY has to put into it is irrelevant when they see Item A that is kinda the same as Item B but a lot more money. And unfortunately that is the dilemma for BBRY and handset makers who put a lot of originality into their stuff. If it doesn't resonate with the customer, it's not a strong selling point.
    Idk I think if marketed well originality and quality shines through
    Apple is always praised for their "premium look and FEEL". I've never seen Sammy praised for being premium looking

    Posted via CB10
    07-24-14 02:16 PM
  24. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    Nah... easy access to content is key IMHO. Folks might not use the term "ecosystem" when they make decisions, but I believe the platforms that tackle this issue invariably win. When BBRY had a better ecosystem, it did well.

    As mobile devices become better business and casual hubs, it is key to have access to extended tools that a healthy ecosystem brings. A good, well-connected ecosystem encourages consumers to buy other pieces, and profitability is achieved and maintained.

    BBRY can make excellent devices till the cows come home, but until the ecosystem problem is figured out, it'll be tough going. Samsung doesn't use Android because it especially loves green mascots. It has several OS options.
    All good points. You and Troy hit the nail on the head with the value add of the ecosystem. With that said I think from a corporate ecosystem perspective, Blackberry competes a lot better, and this is where Chen is focusing.

    From a consumer perspective, a lot of folks in this thread are focusing on off contract pricing. But in many established markets most folks still buy phones on contracts. I really think that contract pricing will be the key here. History has taught us that $199 on a 2 year is too expensive for a BB10 device with mid-range HW. They'll need to get their introductory pricing in at $150 IMO, with a reduction to $99 after 4-6 months.

    In terms of off contract pricing in emerging markets, I don't think it is really an issue as premium devices are not really prevalent. If someone wants the BB10 experience then they can pick up a Z3.
    07-24-14 08:10 PM
  25. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Price wise the Passport can cost 500 or 600$ off-contract and it would probably make no real difference.
    The demand for such a device is probably very inelastic, therefore pricing it too cheap, isn't necessary.

    Everything that exceeds the 600$ immensely, is something I would consider a fail in terms of pricing though.
    Yes the demand is inelastic, but people buying high-end devices aren't stupid.
    The overall package from the competition in the 600$+ sector is just better and if BlackBerry prices the Passport outside of the market (and at 700$ I'd say that it is already overpriced) then they will get punished for it.

    Now the Classic is something different alltogether....
    If BlackBerry prices the Classic higher than 400$ ( + - 50, more or less), then it would be completely ridiculous.
    The cheap Curves are one of the reasons BlackBerry made into the business world.
    I already doubt that the demand for a device like the Classic is actually as high as some people imagine, but what I doubt even more, is that a business would order the Classic en masse, if it costs 500+$.

    If the Classic is the phone that should put BlackBerry back into the business world (long dominated by iOS by now), then the pricing needs to be aggressive (for a BlackBerry at least).

    Anyhow, the Passport should cost 600$ (+ - 50 at max) and the Classic 400 (rather -50, no +50).

    Posted via CB10
    JeepBB likes this.
    07-25-14 04:59 AM
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