02-11-12 11:38 PM
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  1. soo007's Avatar
    just some food for thought.

    What if the generation bb devices were powered by intel chips?
    i think it would be the single greatest technological boost for bb devices by just adopting intel. mobile graphic chip vendors would gladly supply chips for intel-based systems (you'd have to be mentally ******** to refuse intel)

    popular myth: intel cannot compete in the mobile space because their chips run too hot and are inefficient (reminds me on the days when macs were powered by power-pc cpu's and ifanboys used to brag "macs are 5x faster than wintel machines").

    fact: intel by now is excellent at efficiency and just getting better. besides they are the only one to have the manufacturing capabilities that the others simply cannot match (not even samsung, amd, tsmc, etc); and intel has deep experience with the pains relating to excessive heat (remember the pentium 4 days?) something arm manufacturers lack and are about to deal with.

    yes right now current os7 devices are inferior and unreliable (and awful at battery life) and as of right now the 9900 is my last bb device. that medfield-based motorola looks great by the way.

    but this could change if rim goes intel the same way motorola did. my wishful thinking is that bb10 devices have been delayed because the company is working on a "medfield" prototype.

    any thoughts?
    01-26-12 07:42 AM
  2. lnichols's Avatar
    Microsoft is making Windows 8 to function with ARM based chips. ARM is so far ahead of Intel in mobile/tablet phone computing chips. Signing up with Intel would be like RIM's staying with Marvell way past their prime, i.e. a disaster. IMHO.
    howarmat and quik4life like this.
    01-26-12 08:05 AM
  3. soo007's Avatar
    Microsoft is making Windows 8 to function with ARM based chips. ARM is so far ahead of Intel in mobile/tablet phone computing chips. Signing up with Intel would be like RIM's staying with Marvell way past their prime, i.e. a disaster. IMHO.
    i don't mean disrespect to you and you are that intel is way behind arm

    for now.....

    i am gonna frame your comments and pull them back out in 4 years (maybe 3) and laugh at it (and laugh at you)
    01-26-12 08:15 AM
  4. kg4icg's Avatar
    I think someone hasn't learned the way of the cpu.

    Let's see, Intel is about to release IvyBridge which is 22nm cpu's, Arm on the otherhand hasn't come down to that scale yet.

    Meanwhile, Intel is starting developement on it's next step in cpu evolution in which the cpu's will be on the 14nm scale. Currently there is no one with the R&D and production facilities that even come close to what Intel can do with cpu's and nand memory.

    Don't forget, Intel also makes there own SSD's too.
    01-26-12 10:44 AM
  5. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    The CPU fight is for nextgen+1 phones. Intel's not ready ... yet.
    01-26-12 10:49 AM
  6. BBThemes's Avatar
    call me a little biased cos im from the UK, but ARM has a monopoly on the chip design right now. ARM is only a design house though, with people like qualcomm and TI using the architecture, so in theory its in the hands of companies like that who suceeds, but if we`re being honest, apple uses ARM in the iPad, iPhone and iPod ranges, so they arent going anywhere
    01-26-12 11:06 AM
  7. JR A's Avatar
    I think a RIM+Intel alliance would make for one formidable force to reckon with.

    ARM may be leading in the mobile chip world for now, but the sum of RIM and Intel would make for much more than just what they are individually on their own.

    I'd like to see it happen and see what they can do, especially since Intel is in the Silicon Valley, RIM would be knocking on Apple's back porch. What a way to step on the fertile Silicon Valley soil...
    01-26-12 11:35 AM
  8. BBThemes's Avatar
    I think a RIM+Intel alliance would make for one formidable force to reckon with.

    ARM may be leading in the mobile chip world for now, but the sum of RIM and Intel would make for much more than just what they are individually on their own.

    I'd like to see it happen and see what they can do.
    the issue with that is that PB (effectively BB10) runs very well on ARM, so why take the risk?
    01-26-12 11:37 AM
  9. tack's Avatar
    Actually Intel is partnering to release phones in 2012. LG is releasing the first Medfield phone soon. Motorola has also said they will release one. The early results look promising, although a lot is not known yet:

    Intel phones ‘fastest ever’ - Telegraph

    There is a good write up about it here:
    How will Intel do in the phone market? | SemiAccurate

    I think Intel will be become a tough competitor for ARM. It takes the sleeping giant time to wake up, but when they do, look out. Their market is challenged in that mobile devices are stealing PC and laptop market share. They have to enter the space in a big way. They know chips and have tons of cash. I would like to see them put out a tablet chip so Windows 8 will run x86 applications on tablets and PC's. That would be great for corporations.

    I actually think a BB and Intel combination would be a great combo and way to BB to differentiate. They could use a marketing partnership with Intel anyway. Intel could really help them in this area, and it adds credibility instantly in the consumer/less tech savvy space. However, Intel has to put out chips with both power and power efficiency. BB people want battery life!

    Would an x86 Intel chip hurt application compatibility? The LG phone will run Android 4.0, but will it run all Android Apps?
    app_Developer likes this.
    01-26-12 11:51 AM
  10. app_Developer's Avatar
    Would an x86 Intel chip hurt application compatibility? The LG phone will run Android 4.0, but will it run all Android Apps?
    We have Android running on Intel here in the office. Most apps work fine (the ones written to the dalvik vm), but the ones that use the NDK require recompiling.

    Short answer, it wouldn't be a big deal for Android devs to support Intel. Or for that matter, it wouldn't be a big deal for Apple either since they already have the infrastructure for this (of course it's very unlikely that Apple would do this, since they use their bespoke chips now).

    The BB angle with Intel is interesting. Intel tried to make Meego go, but it didn't. Maybe BB10 is the answer?
    01-26-12 12:55 PM
  11. app_Developer's Avatar
    the issue with that is that PB (effectively BB10) runs very well on ARM, so why take the risk?
    Because you'd have a very large company (Intel) in your camp, and the possibility of developing some interesting custom products down the road. Samsung and Apple are not taking Intel seriously at all in mobile, and Microsoft is not really committed to them either. There is an interesting gap there that RIM could fill.

    These are the sorts of big ideas that I hope Heins is thinking about.
    01-26-12 01:03 PM
  12. lewis71980's Avatar
    no. Not particularly awesome.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    01-26-12 02:45 PM
  13. Blacklac's Avatar
    That is definitely an interesting thought that never crossed my mind...
    01-26-12 02:58 PM
  14. lnichols's Avatar
    i don't mean disrespect to you and you are that intel is way behind arm

    for now.....

    i am gonna frame your comments and pull them back out in 4 years (maybe 3) and laugh at it (and laugh at you)
    So they should go behind for the short term, when they are already getting hammered for using not the latest and greatest, because your assumption that Intel will be better in 3 to 4 years?! That's not laughable? Sorry but RIM needs to go with what is mass market and better now for scale, pricing, and performance IMHO. Nothings says that they can't migrate to Intel down the road when Intel proves themselves in the mobile space, but I really don't want RIM to beta test Intel chips in products I use (Sandy Bridge???). Qualcomm probably is the best bet for a truly integrated SoC for wireless devices as they have years of experience in this and power management. I'm not saying that Intel won't pass them at some point, but I don't think RIM should even look at them until they are close to or surpassing ARM based chips available. Medfield is a 32 nm chip design, The Qualcomm Krait (which is the most likely RIM nextGen candidate) is 28 nm design. Even the OMAP5, which would be a pin for pin replacement of the OMAP4 in the Playbook and be simple for RIM to implement is 28 nm design.
    01-26-12 03:36 PM
  15. BBThemes's Avatar
    Medfield is a 32 nm chip design, The Qualcomm Krait (which is the most likely RIM nextGen candidate) is 28 nm design. Even the OMAP5, which would be a pin for pin replacement of the OMAP4 in the Playbook and be simple for RIM to implement is 28 nm design.
    also dont forget Nvidia use ARM chips, their Tegra 3 uses a quad core ARM cortex A9, also as soon as big.LITTLE starts landing into phones, intel wont really stand a chance, as its meant to reduce power useage by up to 70% by selecting cores itself.

    also only ARM as you say have available 28nm chip designs
    01-26-12 04:00 PM
  16. soo007's Avatar
    I agree with all of you that Intel is not yet ready. Right now its hard to see Intel becoming a major player, if not the horseman, in the mobile space.
    Remember that a lot of things can drastically change in a mere 3 years

    It unthinkable to have RIM struggle for life and look now
    Steve Jobs looked fairly robust (R.I.P.)
    The HTC Dream was the only Android device in the market

    Also keep in mind that the whole nm thing is not the most important aspect in chip design (its like judging a car by how many rpm's it can crank out).

    I am calling it......Intel will become at least a major player.
    BB10.1 (or 11) or iPhone 6S with Intel anyone? Android 5.0?
    01-26-12 05:50 PM
  17. BBThemes's Avatar
    I agree with all of you that Intel is not yet ready. Right now its hard to see Intel becoming a major player, if not the horseman, in the mobile space.
    Remember that a lot of things can drastically change in a mere 3 years

    It unthinkable to have RIM struggle for life and look now
    Steve Jobs looked fairly robust (R.I.P.)
    The HTC Dream was the only Android device in the market

    Also keep in mind that the whole nm thing is not the most important aspect in chip design (its like judging a car by how many rpm's it can crank out).

    I am calling it......Intel will become at least a major player.
    BB10.1 (or 11) or iPhone 6S with Intel anyone? Android 5.0?
    i get your point that nobody knows what the future holds, but i think intel need to worry more about losing the pc market than ARM do about losing mobile market. ARM is making its way into PC`s, thats Intels biggest issue right now.

    As for the nm of the chip, the lower the nm the smaller/thinner the phone can be, add big.LITTLE into the mix with power reduction and thats also a smaller battery needed (in theory) for the same life. which would also lead to a thinner phone. i would say though that as chips will be more powerful, the power reduction from the chip will more than likely be more an ability to keep the battery the size they are now, rather than reduce them if that makes sense.
    01-26-12 06:31 PM
  18. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    i get your point that nobody knows what the future holds, but i think intel need to worry more about losing the pc market than ARM do about losing mobile market. ARM is making its way into PC`s, thats Intels biggest issue right now.

    As for the nm of the chip, the lower the nm the smaller/thinner the phone can be, add big.LITTLE into the mix with power reduction and thats also a smaller battery needed (in theory) for the same life. which would also lead to a thinner phone. i would say though that as chips will be more powerful, the power reduction from the chip will more than likely be more an ability to keep the battery the size they are now, rather than reduce them if that makes sense.
    This is exactly why Intel Needs to get into the Mobile market and fight with ARM,

    ARM is encroaching on business, because ARM can meet the needs of the vast majority of business users since really most could be using P3's and be just fine for their day to day tasks.

    Intel Striking a partnership with RIM COULD work, assuming Intel has been working on getting patents and licenses for LTE so they can produce all in one solutions, Intel has the R&D, and the clout to come into the market hard, they have a server back end that they could be working with RIM to create better BES servers, more efficient, better features, more hardware level encryption, etc.

    Combine that with Intels Memory storage division and maybe they would make for a good partnership like Samsung and Apple have[had] with eachother,

    The question is, HAS QNX ever been ported to x86?
    01-26-12 07:22 PM
  19. mithrazor's Avatar
    i get your point that nobody knows what the future holds, but i think intel need to worry more about losing the pc market than ARM do about losing mobile market. ARM is making its way into PC`s, thats Intels biggest issue right now.

    As for the nm of the chip, the lower the nm the smaller/thinner the phone can be, add big.LITTLE into the mix with power reduction and thats also a smaller battery needed (in theory) for the same life. which would also lead to a thinner phone. i would say though that as chips will be more powerful, the power reduction from the chip will more than likely be more an ability to keep the battery the size they are now, rather than reduce them if that makes sense.
    But you also have to take into account that x86 architecture tends to require more energy than its ARM counterpart. So they might have a better manufacturing process. But they'll need it to be competitive on the battery consumption front.

    Also from what I've read, it takes much longer to design a x86 chip also. And being even a half year off, can be crucial to their success.

    I'm not too sure on my second point. Someone with actual processor knowledge can correct me if wrong. But I still see ARM being the better way to go.
    01-26-12 07:25 PM
  20. soo007's Avatar
    This is exactly why Intel Needs to get into the Mobile market and fight with ARM,

    ARM is encroaching on business, because ARM can meet the needs of the vast majority of business users since really most could be using P3's and be just fine for their day to day tasks.

    Intel Striking a partnership with RIM COULD work, assuming Intel has been working on getting patents and licenses for LTE so they can produce all in one solutions, Intel has the R&D, and the clout to come into the market hard, they have a server back end that they could be working with RIM to create better BES servers, more efficient, better features, more hardware level encryption, etc.

    Combine that with Intels Memory storage division and maybe they would make for a good partnership like Samsung and Apple have[had] with eachother,

    The question is, HAS QNX ever been ported to x86?

    oh sure that QNX can run on x86 otherwise I would not have thought of "Intel + QNX"

    QNX Realtime Operating System (RTOS) software, middleware, development tools and services for superior embedded design

    A bit on chip production.
    Good luck to ARM manufacturers with tuning gate threshold voltages. oh sure they can go to 28nm how about getting consistent threshold voltages when things get very small?
    By the time they get their 28nm chips Intel will have 22nm chips well into their mid life cycle and ready to begin 14nm chip production (and yes they don't have to deal with threshold voltages with Ivy Bridge and they won't have to deal with it for quite some time).
    01-26-12 07:36 PM
  21. paris.williams's Avatar
    you know what i think would be truly cool? a QNX / BB10 powered phone sporting quad core exynos or TI processor
    01-26-12 10:01 PM
  22. twburger's Avatar
    I agree that a melding of RIM BB + QNX + Intel would be a force that could dominate markets both in phone and tablet products. However, a few things will have to happen.

    Intel needs to improve power use performance and currently is working hard to catch up to ARM. It does look promising.

    QNX needs to be supported by RIM like the original QNX creators. More developers are becoming leery of QNX in that it may become a niche product with little support or orphaned altogether. RIM needs to make certain the developer community has faith in QNX and popularizes it. The poor PlayBook sales are due to lack of developer support as compared to Android.

    BlackBerries running QNX + Intel have to be designed so much better than anything else including the phone who's name can not be said by BB users (iPhone) that mass exodus like the Haliburton announcement start happening to Apple. Android phones are quickly catching up to BB security abilities and so will not be enough to keep government and corporate clients. This is on top of RIM lifting the lid for India and Saudi Arabia recently and allowing them to peek into users email.

    When all BB apps run on all of the phones, tablets and even the desktop (QNX does run on Intel desktops) Apple's and Google's advantages will disappear. We will have to continue to wait and see.
    02-11-12 05:35 PM
  23. missing_K-W's Avatar
    Intel and QNX are strategic partners, as well as Texas Instruments whose OMAP4 currently powers the PlayBook.

    Anything that powers future QNX devices would most likely come from a strategic partnership which is currently in place,due to the high level optimization these relationships allow for
    Last edited by missing_K-W; 02-11-12 at 05:52 PM.
    02-11-12 05:47 PM
  24. twburger's Avatar
    "HAS QNX ever been ported to x86?"

    Yes, I used to develop on an Intel based server running QNX.
    02-11-12 05:52 PM
  25. missing_K-W's Avatar
    "HAS QNX ever been ported to x86?"

    Yes, I used to develop on an Intel based server running QNX.
    I would assume yes as x86 support is shown on the site.....Search the QNX site

    QNX Realtime Operating System (RTOS) software, middleware, development tools and services for superior embedded design

    X86 QNX runtime kit link below -

    http://www.qnx.com/download/group.html?programid=11560
    Last edited by missing_K-W; 02-11-12 at 06:11 PM.
    02-11-12 06:05 PM
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