03-21-12 12:22 AM
74 123
tools
  1. bbmme's Avatar
    If rim ever gets bought out by anything other then a Canadian, wp would be the phone of choice for me eh.
    03-18-12 11:32 PM
  2. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    The most epic reading comprehension failure I've ever seen on this forum.

    He asked which market was the top market... The consumer market or the business market. He was not talking about the companies or OSes in question.

    The iPhone phenomenon clearly illustrates which market is running things in mobile right now. It's all about consumer, even increasingly so in the workplace these days.

    And to the person upthread. Those apps are third party apps, they aren't stock functionality. Last time I went into an AT&T store and clicked on WLM on a BB7 device it went to AppWorld and wanted me to install. Third party refers to the app not being integrated into the OS as a simple feature of the OS - like the WP7 Messaging Hub. In that case, there is literally nothing to install. FBC and WLM is built into the base OS. It will work even if you have 0 applications installed, just like the stock email client or browser will work.
    Man, why is it so hard to understand that Facebook,Twitter, Google Talk, Yahoo Messenger and WLM come as part of the OS, install any OS for a 9900 on your PC and they'll be there and they're fully integrated into the OS. The 3 I M apps even get their own keyboard shortcuts, G, Y and X
    Last edited by belfastdispatcher; 03-19-12 at 02:21 AM.
    03-19-12 02:19 AM
  3. ubizmo's Avatar
    The most epic reading comprehension failure I've ever seen on this forum.

    He asked which market was the top market... The consumer market or the business market. He was not talking about the companies or OSes in question.
    You're right; I blew it. I agree that the consumer market is dominant, and that RIM didn't see this until it was well in progress. However, I'd still challenge the "obscure power users" characterization of the BB target market.

    And to the person upthread. Those apps are third party apps, they aren't stock functionality. Last time I went into an AT&T store and clicked on WLM on a BB7 device it went to AppWorld and wanted me to install. Third party refers to the app not being integrated into the OS as a simple feature of the OS - like the WP7 Messaging Hub. In that case, there is literally nothing to install. FBC and WLM is built into the base OS. It will work even if you have 0 applications installed, just like the stock email client or browser will work.
    And to repeat that person's point: These are native apps. When you install a new OS, they come baked in, unless you opt out of them in the install or shrink them out. And of course you can delete them later. They are made by RIM. The fact that one of them was missing on a phone in an AT&T store doesn't change any of that. Carriers can and do veto apps and features that other carriers allow. That doesn't change the fact that they are native apps.

    I agree, however, with your point that:

    In short, the ecosystem is the selling point - on a whole.
    At least, it's getting that way. I think there are still plenty of users who aren't quite tuned into the whole ecosystem concept, but I have no doubt that their numbers are dwindling. And this is an area where WP, though still small, is showing promise.
    03-19-12 12:35 PM
  4. BoldtotheMax's Avatar
    Belfast, why do you always come off as your opinions as facts? Every post I read from you seems as though you just know everything about every product. Have you honestly even used a WP7 phone? It really is a slick experience.

    I say that loving my Android phone and have always liked my BB phones as well. Seems as you are just so closed minded.....IMO, LOL!

    I used a Nokia Lumina from time as my wife rocks one and it does a lot. 7.5 Mango is really amazing and it is only going to get better.
    I get that you are a huge BB fan, but sometimes wish you would come off your soapbox.

    Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using Tapatalk
    03-19-12 12:35 PM
  5. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    Man, why is it so hard to understand that Facebook,Twitter, Google Talk, Yahoo Messenger and WLM come as part of the OS, install any OS for a 9900 on your PC and they'll be there and they're fully integrated into the OS. The 3 I M apps even get their own keyboard shortcuts, G, Y and X
    Those apps are separate apps, not stock functionality.

    Those apps integrate into iPhones and Android devices as well.

    That's not the point.

    Uninstall all apps on a WP7 device and you can still WLM and facebook chat, cause it's part of the base OS. NOthing needs to be installed to do that.

    On a BB you have to install them.

    Like I said, I had a BB, and I've tried opening them on OS7 devices in AT&T/T-Mobile stores and they always redirect to the BB App World to install.

    They're no different than bloatware intalled on an Android phone, if preloaded, with the advantage that you can easily uninstall them (unlike on many Android devices). That's a completely different thing from the same things on a Windows Phone. Notwithstanding the fact that the services are implemented completely different on the phone, as well...
    Last edited by N8ter; 03-19-12 at 01:04 PM.
    03-19-12 01:01 PM
  6. mmcpher's Avatar
    Of all the OS's competing against BBOS, for me WP is the most interesting alternative. It is a different look and feel, simpler and more attuned to touchscreen use (I still like to use the 9900 keyboard though). And it is Microsoft, a company that knows how to work with app developers and who have the resources to hang in over the long haul. A lot depends on how well Windows 8 goes over on desktops and new tablets. If Microsoft succeeds there, they will have a real incentive to PC and Office users to keep it all in shop. I have used MS and Office products at home and work for years. Some of the products are great, others less so. But until know I've used Blackberry for my phone and tablet and have had to "go back" to the old days of finding which 3rd party apps work best with Blackberry, and then made sure they all play nice together. It is easier just to let Microsoft do it. And let them handle the upgrades, too. There always will be a segment of the consuming population that get more out of cobbling things together themselves, picking and choosing and staying on top of things. A lot of other people like as much as possible to be done for them.
    03-19-12 01:38 PM
  7. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Those apps are separate apps, not stock functionality.

    Those apps integrate into iPhones and Android devices as well.

    That's not the point.

    Uninstall all apps on a WP7 device and you can still WLM and facebook chat, cause it's part of the base OS. NOthing needs to be installed to do that.

    On a BB you have to install them.

    Like I said, I had a BB, and I've tried opening them on OS7 devices in AT&T/T-Mobile stores and they always redirect to the BB App World to install.

    They're no different than bloatware intalled on an Android phone, if preloaded, with the advantage that you can easily uninstall them (unlike on many Android devices). That's a completely different thing from the same things on a Windows Phone. Notwithstanding the fact that the services are implemented completely different on the phone, as well...
    By your explanation BBM would also be a "third party" app. They are exactly the same but I get the feeling you'll never understand that.

    "Uninstall all apps on a WP7 device and you can still WLM and facebook chat, cause it's part of the base OS. NOthing needs to be installed to do that"

    This is basically the definition of bloatware, functions that you might not want or need and you can't delete them.
    03-19-12 01:51 PM
  8. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    By your explanation BBM would also be a "third party" app. They are exactly the same but I get the feeling you'll never understand that.

    "Uninstall all apps on a WP7 device and you can still WLM and facebook chat, cause it's part of the base OS. NOthing needs to be installed to do that"

    This is basically the definition of bloatware, functions that you might not want or need and you can't delete them.
    No. It's not. Cause it adds no bloat to the device.

    The way the CHat functionality works on WP7 is that it gets routed through the Windows Live Server, so it doesn't need a separate connection for FBC and WLM. It all works via something similar to a web service, so you only really need a thin client on the device to provide a user interface and facilitate notifications.

    It's not like BBM which is a completely different full application on the device, or WLM/Yahoo/Google Talk/Facebook/Twitter/etc. etc. Windows Live Hooks into itself, FB, Twitter, LinkedIn and other services and simply routes that over via a Web Service or updates them via a background task.

    It's not bloat at all. You can simply turn it off in the settings, as well. The reason why a lot of the core functionality in WP7 is so damn fast is precicely because there really isn't a ton of code there. They were very smart in how they leveraged their services and integrated them into the OS. It means the base apps on the phone use very little resources and the phone's performance stays very very high even after extended use and days/weeks/months between reboots/restarts - Not something RIM can claim of its BBs.

    BBM is basically another app on a BB phone. It is not part of the OS, either. It is just pre-installed for convenience, the same way OEMs pre-install facebook and Twitter on Android phones. The same as any other bloatware. WP7 devices ship with Bloatware as well (TeleNav, MobiTV, etc.), they're just uninstallable (takes 1.5-2 seconds to uninstall them).

    Do you understand that?

    What you're telling me is that something like Windows Live Essentials pre-installed on a Windows PC is equivalent to Windows Explorer, which is a base Windows component. That's sort fo the difference between BBM and that other stuff on BB and the Messaging Hub on WP7.
    Last edited by N8ter; 03-19-12 at 02:41 PM.
    03-19-12 02:38 PM
  9. emirozmen's Avatar
    In terms of UI WP takes the cake!
    03-19-12 02:42 PM
  10. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    No. It's not. Cause it adds no bloat to the device.

    The way the CHat functionality works on WP7 is that it gets routed through the Windows Live Server, so it doesn't need a separate connection for FBC and WLM. It all works via something similar to a web service, so you only really need a thin client on the device to provide a user interface and facilitate notifications.

    It's not like BBM which is a completely different full application on the device, or WLM/Yahoo/Google Talk/Facebook/Twitter/etc. etc. Windows Live Hooks into itself, FB, Twitter, LinkedIn and other services and simply routes that over via a Web Service or updates them via a background task.

    It's not bloat at all. You can simply turn it off in the settings, as well. The reason why a lot of the core functionality in WP7 is so damn fast is precicely because there really isn't a ton of code there. They were very smart in how they leveraged their services and integrated them into the OS. It means the base apps on the phone use very little resources and the phone's performance stays very very high even after extended use and days/weeks/months between reboots/restarts - Not something RIM can claim of its BBs.

    BBM is basically another app on a BB phone. It is not part of the OS, either. It is just pre-installed for convenience, the same way OEMs pre-install facebook and Twitter on Android phones. The same as any other bloatware. WP7 devices ship with Bloatware as well (TeleNav, MobiTV, etc.), they're just uninstallable (takes 1.5-2 seconds to uninstall them).

    Do you understand that?

    What you're telling me is that something like Windows Live Essentials pre-installed on a Windows PC is equivalent to Windows Explorer, which is a base Windows component. That's sort fo the difference between BBM and that other stuff on BB and the Messaging Hub on WP7.
    You're getting cofused, I never said they're part of the OS code, I just said they're native apps as opposed to third party apps as you called them.

    They are native apps that once installed the integrate into the OS pretty deep.

    Third party apps imply they are made by a third party and they're not, they're made by RIM and they're preinstalled with the OS.

    Facebook, Twitter and I M clients are made by Rim therefore native apps, end of story.
    03-19-12 03:13 PM
  11. T
    I find that the RIM versions of apps are better. For example, the RIM version of AIM works perfectly with BlackBerry notifications and profiles. You're also able to link your AIM contacts with your BlackBerry contacts. Can't do that with the AOL version of AIM.
    03-19-12 03:50 PM
  12. Dapper37's Avatar
    There's a great read about WP8 titled the death of the desk top, at the globe and Mail if someone can paste it here. Totaly relavent. I can't paste here anymore
    Mostly the article is very kind to MS and what they are trying to do, it does liken the future desktop/mobile OS a bit Frankenstinish at one point.
    Last edited by Dapper37; 03-19-12 at 10:55 PM.
    03-19-12 10:51 PM
  13. torches's Avatar
    Comparing BBOS to WP7 is slightly unfair...BBOS is a legacy OS that's coming towards the end of its life-cycle, as mentioned before. However, one could argue that is RIM's fault for allowing it to fall behind the pack over these years.

    On the issue about physical vs virtual KB: whatever works best for you. However, I don't think you can deny that a physical KB > virtual KB when it comes to typing long email/messages; virtual KBs, although have come a long way, still cannot compare. I have no doubt, though, one day they will top physical KBs. It really boils down to what's important in a smartphone for you: there are those who cannot live w/o one (me!) and those who can, or are willing to give up the luxury of one for an improved ecosystem of apps, media, games etc etc...

    On the topic of RIM vs MS, some of the points made are spot on. MS has the advantage of a huge ecosystem + brand, and the resources to build it. RIM, on the other hand, has its obvious issues surrounding its ecosystem which can only get worse as RIM slowly dies in the public's eyes; whether BB10 can rectify this remains to be seen.

    P.S. do people on this site REALLY believe there is some secret agenda against RIM behind the media? Come on guys, the reason media bashing against RIM occurs is pretty self-explanatory, is it not...
    03-20-12 12:43 AM
  14. Dapper37's Avatar
    Fairness aside. Apple, google, Microsoft = good, RIM = bad in the eyes of the American Media anyway. They just don't stop kicking someone that's down, who's down is up to their perspective. People wonder why their kids become bullies? Their parents do the same thing.
    In fact MS wp may not even take off in the US, let alone the rest of the world. RIM has plenty of countries around the world where they are still #1, yet in the eyes of the American Media its a done deal. I'm not saying the American Media wants to kill RIM. I'm saying they don't know any better. They do it by their nature, circling the waggons around the home town heros like they always have. But if your American I can see why you don't see it that way. Yet the facts speak for themselves.
    To be sure, i'm not talking about Americans here but their media. It's very similar to the way fox news beats on the the Dems and nbc and the rest, beat up on the Republicans. It doesn't matter what's right or wrong, its how they want to see things, how they want things to work out.
    Last edited by Dapper37; 03-20-12 at 04:26 AM.
    03-20-12 01:19 AM
  15. hurds's Avatar
    New Windows 8 marks impending death of the desktop as we know it - The Globe and Mail

    The one thing about ecosystems I think people forget is it seems pretty US-centric.

    A lot of these ecosystems don't exists across the world. Which is why I think the 'requirement' for Netflix and hulu arent that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. I'm sure the percentage of americans that even use netflix or hulu is pretty neglibable.

    I really don't see how Windows has a better ecosystem than RIM. I actually think the term ecosystem is stupid because its so ambiguous.

    I think the same story thats constantly being reported in the media about RIM could be said about Windows, but the media perpetuated story about RIMs downfall wouldnt be so compelling if you talk about windows.

    I couldn't find any other sources but from wikipedia, from 2007-2010 RIM went from 12 to 47 million in phone sales while windows went from 14 to 12. Really seems like RIM is on a 'death spiral' like the media talks about all the time.

    I haven't used a new windows phone yet except for in-store diplays but I could imagine the novelty of the metro UI wearing off pretty quickly and then just becoming annoying.
    03-20-12 02:03 AM
  16. torches's Avatar
    I agree completely, and I think you've nailed the point on it's head. I am not saying it's justified the way mainstream media conducts itself sometimes, but that's how its operated for a long time and I don't think "RIM bashing" is any exceptional case, or agenda on behalf of those reporting.

    P.S. I am not from the US, so I wouldn't know
    03-20-12 02:31 AM
  17. Dapper37's Avatar
    New Windows 8 marks impending death of the desktop as we know it - The Globe and Mail

    The one thing about ecosystems I think people forget is it seems pretty US-centric.

    A lot of these ecosystems don't exists across the world. Which is why I think the 'requirement' for Netflix and hulu arent that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. I'm sure the percentage of americans that even use netflix or hulu is pretty neglibable.

    I really don't see how Windows has a better ecosystem than RIM. I actually think the term ecosystem is stupid because its so ambiguous.

    I think the same story thats constantly being reported in the media about RIM could be said about Windows, but the media perpetuated story about RIMs downfall wouldnt be so compelling if you talk about windows.

    I couldn't find any other sources but from wikipedia, from 2007-2010 RIM went from 12 to 47 million in phone sales while windows went from 14 to 12. Really seems like RIM is on a 'death spiral' like the media talks about all the time.

    I haven't used a new windows phone yet except for in-store diplays but I could imagine the novelty of the metro UI wearing off pretty quickly and then just becoming annoying.
    Good point, RIM has been out around the world getting countries, local apps, content going for a good wile now. It's said that the Playbook is enjoying a good life in India due to local content on the platform. That matters!
    03-20-12 02:39 AM
  18. Villain's Avatar
    I think comparing the wp7 OS and BBOS is like comparing a new 2012 mustang GT to an early 90's mustang.

    Don't get me wrong... I love RIM, I want RIM to be on top, I work for a provider on blackberry tech support so RIM getting back to the top is a big wish for me.

    RIM's biggest downfall imo is... "Apps" and having to much of a big head refusing to evolve. it's to easy to port apps between ios, android, wp7. (even lower OS's like Symbian and bada kill RIM's appworld)
    03-20-12 08:13 AM
  19. ubizmo's Avatar
    New Windows 8 marks impending death of the desktop as we know it - The Globe and Mail

    The one thing about ecosystems I think people forget is it seems pretty US-centric.

    A lot of these ecosystems don't exists across the world. Which is why I think the 'requirement' for Netflix and hulu arent that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. I'm sure the percentage of americans that even use netflix or hulu is pretty neglibable.

    I really don't see how Windows has a better ecosystem than RIM. I actually think the term ecosystem is stupid because its so ambiguous.
    In the grand scheme of things, what the developed world wants today, the developing world wants tomorrow. I agree that the ecosystem concept is currently emerging in the developed world, but that doesn't make it unimportant or merely "US-centric." Netflix and Hulu are things that I personally have little use for, but what makes them important is the fact that large numbers of people in the developed world not only want them or their international counterparts but expect them in mobile devices. But that's just one part of the ecosystem.

    The larger part is cloud-based cross-device sync and integration. MS is doing that; Apple is doing it; Google is doing it. RIM isn't yet doing it because, of the companies just mentioned, RIM is the only one that has been strictly about phones for most of its history. So integrating a BB with anything else always means getting it to work with someone else's stuff. And that works fine until someone else becomes a direct competitor.
    03-20-12 09:21 AM
  20. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    In the grand scheme of things, what the developed world wants today, the developing world wants tomorrow. I agree that the ecosystem concept is currently emerging in the developed world, but that doesn't make it unimportant or merely "US-centric." Netflix and Hulu are things that I personally have little use for, but what makes them important is the fact that large numbers of people in the developed world not only want them or their international counterparts but expect them in mobile devices. But that's just one part of the ecosystem.

    The larger part is cloud-based cross-device sync and integration. MS is doing that; Apple is doing it; Google is doing it. RIM isn't yet doing it because, of the companies just mentioned, RIM is the only one that has been strictly about phones for most of its history. So integrating a BB with anything else always means getting it to work with someone else's stuff. And that works fine until someone else becomes a direct competitor.
    In the past Rim has made their push email available to other platforms at no extra cost via Blackberry Connect, it seems now days nobody wants to give Rim anything, Rim has only themselves to rely on.

    I mean Skype and Netflix really can't make an app for Blackberry or at least for the PlayBook? Really?
    03-20-12 09:27 AM
  21. Joe4pal's Avatar
    I used BlackBerrys from 08-the end of 2011 before switching to Windows Phone 7. It was supposed to be a temporary thing but honestly RIM does not come anywhere near Microsoft. This is honestly the best cell phone I have ever had and the integration is amazing. If anyone has any questions feel free to PM me I will be more then happy to answer them for you.

    Also the argument that it is the developers against RIM is invalid. The developers looked at the long term and said there is no profit to be made here we are done. Also BBos 5-7 apps will not work with BB10 correct? So why waste time developing for a platform that is not guaranteed to succeed?
    Last edited by Joe4pal; 03-20-12 at 09:52 AM.
    03-20-12 09:31 AM
  22. ubizmo's Avatar
    I mean Skype and Netflix really can't make an app for Blackberry or at least for the PlayBook? Really?
    Exactly. We sometimes here that they're unwilling to commit resources to developing for a platform that's uncertain, but that doesn't add up. Netflix is in the WP7 Marketplace, after all, and WP7 is still uncertain too.

    As for Skype, it's easier to understand, now that MS owns it. I really do believe that RIM is MS's first target, so they have an interest in keeping it away. If RIM fails, MS is positioning itself to pick up a lot of the pieces, in terms of corporate business and emerging markets. So I tend to think the Skype situation is just another example of MS hardball.
    03-20-12 09:36 AM
  23. Dapper37's Avatar
    I see a future that has room for all the current 4 OS in mobile. The importance of apps is on the decline. Soon it won't be worth it, to not have an app on each OS (currently it is). The ability of the OS will drive its future functions. The market is just that large!
    03-20-12 09:38 AM
  24. berryaddictnoza's Avatar
    There's a great read about WP8 titled the death of the desk top, at the globe and Mail if someone can paste it here. Totaly relavent. I can't paste here anymore
    Mostly the article is very kind to MS and what they are trying to do, it does liken the future desktop/mobile OS a bit Frankenstinish at one point.
    New Windows 8 marks impending death of the desktop as we know it - The Globe and Mail

    Great (and funny!) article. Glad I bought a Windows 7 machine, works fine so far.... I (bearly) lived through Vista, and don't need to re-live it again.
    03-21-12 12:22 AM
74 123
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD