BB10 Replacement? Purism's Librem 5 running PureOS Linux Now Available

For CURRENT BB10 diehards who are intentionally avoiding iOS and Android, your new phone may be here.

It's clunky. It only has 12 apps available now, but it's running real desktop Linux on a handset, it protects your privacy 100%, and it's a huge upgrade from current BB10 phones. It's still for early adopters, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy one, as it will only get better over time as more Linux apps are configured to run on the form factor.

Full specs are in the link below, but for me, the most important specs are 1) no data mining by the OS; 2) replaceable battery; 3) hardware kill switches for cell, wifi, and gps; 4) microSD storage; and 5) headphone jack. The price is currently $699.

It's not a full replacement for those dependent on iOS or Android, but it might be the perfect replacement for my Z10.

Link to Product Page: https://shop.puri.sm/shop/librem-5/

YouTube review here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1haFGa7ZyPs

What do you think?

Interesting.
Pretty bare bones. It will be interesting to see if it sells. $699.

Originally Posted by bb10adopter111

it will only get better over time

Your whole post sounds like the BlackBerry 10 script all over again. Clunky, bare-bones, not enough apps with promises they'll come eventually and priced too high. Deja Vu.

did they actually demo a call yet? This is not a daily driver people, a Z10 is way more functional. Plus alot of problems in management and staffing in the background of Purism should give you pause on how often they can update and basic function projects they can undertake.

I think its going to have to gain good functionality fast to really be usable. It sounds very early in its development right now and lacks even a calendar function at launch. I understand the reason in getting it but still seems like it needs some more time in the oven to really become a solution for many

I'm planning on buying one to experiment with.

Originally Posted by chetmanley

I'm planning on buying one to experiment with.

if you desire to experiment on a 'linux on a phone' device look at the Pine phone. I think they'll take significant mind-share away from Purism due to lower cost and transparency. there's a monthly blog to keep up. https://www.pine64.org/2019/10/05/oc...shipping-news/

Originally Posted by Bla1ze

Your whole post sounds like the BlackBerry 10 script all over again. Clunky, bare-bones, not enough apps with promises they'll come eventually and priced too high. Deja Vu.

Several big differences. Most importantly, there is already a huge active developer community committed to the platform. The only modifications needed for thousands of existing Linux apps are to adjust to the screen size and to take advantage of mobile sensors.

Also, with a simple connection to a keyboard, mouse and monitor it's already a full-featured desktop OS that can run thousands of full-featured applications (with performance limitations).

But I agree that this is not a phone designed for the masses. It's a niche device, but I would argue that it's a great BB10 replacement for anyone who wants to avoid iOS and Android.

From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.

Originally Posted by Ment

if you desire to experiment on a 'linux on a phone' device look at the Pine phone. I think they'll take significant mind-share away from Purism due to lower cost and transparency. there's a monthly blog to keep up. https://www.pine64.org/2019/10/05/oc...shipping-news/

I'm tracking the Pine phone also. Before I decide I'm going to see how the initial reviews pan out for both, but on the face of it, I'm leaning toward Librem due to extra ram and better spec camera hardware.

It definitely an early adopter's phone for now. But the premise of using a full desktop Linux with existing drivers and apps is very compelling. Out of the box you can already install and use hundreds of existing text-based apps, and the graphical ones will just require tweaking in the presentation layer, for the most part.

From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.

Originally Posted by TgeekB

Pretty bare bones. It will be interesting to see if it sells. $699.

I think that you already know the answer to that.

Originally Posted by bb10adopter111

It definitely an early adopter's phone for now. But the premise of using a full desktop Linux with existing drivers and apps is very compelling. Out of the box you can already install and use hundreds of existing text-based apps, and the graphical ones will just require tweaking in the presentation layer, for the most part.

From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.

Being a niche it still needs to sell quite a few devices to survive. That’s the problem with these projects, they don’t really have a long term chance.

Originally Posted by TgeekB

Being a niche it still needs to sell quite a few devices to survive. That’s the problem with these projects, they don’t really have a long term chance.

Of course. But it doesn't need to sell millions of units like TCL to make a profit, and it's software development costs are relatively low, as it doesn't have a lot of work to do there either. My guess is that the cost to produce the phone is much less than $200, and that they intend to cover their costs with fewer than 100K devices.

From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.

Originally Posted by bb10adopter111

Several big differences. Most importantly, there is already a huge active developer community committed to the platform. The only modifications needed for thousands of existing Linux apps are to adjust to the screen size and to take advantage of mobile sensors.

Also, with a simple connection to a keyboard, mouse and monitor it's already a full-featured desktop OS that can run thousands of full-featured applications (with performance limitations).

But I agree that this is not a phone designed for the masses. It's a niche device, but I would argue that it's a great BB10 replacement for anyone who wants to avoid iOS and Android.

From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.

I'm not gonna nitpick. I genuinely hope they do well, but I know it's not a device for me. That's a 2nd gen or 3rd gen buy in.

Originally Posted by bb10adopter111

Of course. But it doesn't need to sell millions of units like TCL to make a profit, and it's software development costs are relatively low, as it doesn't have a lot of work to do there either. My guess is that the cost to produce the phone is much less than $200, and that they intend to cover their costs with fewer than 100K devices.

From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.

I do hope it’s successful. There seems to be more talk about security lately and perhaps they can find interest. It would be nice to see something different.
I believe they’re biggest obstacle will be price. Then again, people who are truly interested in security may be business owners who can afford it.
If you get one let us know what you think!

read the former Purism CTO interview and make your decision on whether Librem will ever see a followup phone.

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...oric-Interview

What were some of the biggest issues being the "under-dog" organization in the competitive laptop/hardware space?

Not having leverage in China. Quantities matter there and getting only dozen or couple of hundred orders per month doesn't really help. That said, the Librems are heavily overpriced but that is because Purism seemingly never tried to get better deal and the South San Francisco partner abused this so that is why Purism Librems are double the price they should be. I believe that if we had more realistic prices, it would be much better for Purism not only financially but also more talking about it, more of it in wild which in turn means much more orders, more happy customers etc. The innovation is not really that hard in this space because big players don't try to really innovate as they have strong positions, so it wouldn't be that hard to be good or better then most of big players even, but quantity leverage is hard to pass by.

I’ll pick one up to play with it. I wonder what will happen if I actually try to run more than a few apps at a time. My guess is poor battery life and/or a very warm phone. Android and iOS and WebOS all are able to optimize for power because everyone uses their frameworks (including their task/thread pools), so the OS has a lot of freedom to line up work to minimize consumption. Running regular old Linux desktop apps means they won’t be able to do that as aggressively.

Also I don’t understand how memory will work. Phone shouldn’t swap, so if i port an app that allocates a lot of pages, will the OS just kill other apps like BB10 did?

Still, something fun to play with and I might make an app or two for it for fun.

Originally Posted by Bla1ze

That's a 2nd gen or 3rd gen buy in.

^^^^This -- I may look in on the 3rd if it's still around.

Originally Posted by app_Developer

I’ll pick one up to play with it. I wonder what will happen if I actually try to run more than a few apps at a time. My guess is poor battery life and/or a very warm phone. Android and iOS and WebOS all are able to optimize for power because everyone uses their frameworks (including their task/thread pools), so the OS has a lot of freedom to line up work to minimize consumption. Running regular old Linux desktop apps means they won’t be able to do that as aggressively.

Also I don’t understand how memory will work. Phone shouldn’t swap, so if i port an app that allocates a lot of pages, will the OS just kill other apps like BB10 did?

Still, something fun to play with and I might make an app or two for it for fun.

the software for power management to handle multiple apps is next to non-existent at this point. Can't really suspend state or handle background tasks at reduced power levels like any modern phone OS. Librem is really a dev device and will be for a foreseeable future.

Originally Posted by Ment

the software for power management to handle multiple apps is next to non-existent at this point. Can't really suspend state or handle background tasks at reduced power levels like any modern phone OS. Librem is really a dev device and will be for a foreseeable future.

Hmmm, that’s what I suspected. Managing power And memory on a device is tricky thing that requires cooperation from apps and shared frameworks and the OS. I’m pretty familiar with what Apple and Palm had to do for this, and how much investment went into that. I still think “desktop style apps” was a huge mistake in BB10 and would have bit them hard if they had ever gotten to the point where they had all the popular apps.

But, as you said, Librem will still be a fun toy. I’ll play.

Originally Posted by Bla1ze

I'm not gonna nitpick. I genuinely hope they do well, but I know it's not a device for me. That's a 2nd gen or 3rd gen buy in.

It's really not a device for anyone who is happy with iOS or Android. And it's not yet ready for prime time for many who would like an alternative to the duopoly but who need to see a more finished device.

Originally Posted by Ment

read the former Purism CTO interview and make your decision on whether Librem will ever see a followup phone.

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...oric-Interview

There's no question that the Purism prices are an issue, including the Librem 5. But, I think low volumes and high prices are the right strategy while they fine tune the offering for the phone.

The laptop pricing referred to in the interview are much more overpriced than the phone, IMO, because there are so many high quality, less expensive alternatives.

Originally Posted by bb10adopter111

There's no question that the Purism prices are an issue, including the Librem 5. But, I think low volumes and high prices are the right strategy while they fine tune the offering for the phone.

The laptop pricing referred to in the interview are much more overpriced than the phone, IMO, because there are so many high quality, less expensive alternatives.

I bracketed a quote above where the CTO says they mismanaged the cost component of Librem because they went with the laptop guy instead of a more proven mobile partner, perhaps they should have had whomever the Fairphone people used to source/manufacture to keep costs down using the Librem design specs.

Originally Posted by bb10adopter111

There's no question that the Purism prices are an issue, including the Librem 5. But, I think low volumes and high prices are the right strategy while they fine tune the offering for the phone.

The laptop pricing referred to in the interview are much more overpriced than the phone, IMO, because there are so many high quality, less expensive alternatives.

The ex-CTO seems to be implying that the manufacturing partner are the ones who drove the cost up. In other words, Purism may not see the benefit from a high margin.

Originally Posted by bb10adopter111

It's really not a device for anyone who is happy with iOS or Android. And it's not yet ready for prime time for many who would like an alternative to the duopoly but who need to see a more finished device.

Given that would you be able to make it your daily driver replacing your Z10?