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12-21-14 05:03 AM
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  1. gvs1341's Avatar
    I simply want to compile a list of reasons as to why legacy devices' physical buttons would be/ are redundant on BB10. Particularly when the corporation itself acknowledges that the Classic is - a means - to get the folks still using OS7 devices to switch over to BB10.

    BTW, even on my 9860 the sticky and non working back and end keys were the only keys I "had" to use because of lack of on screen swipes and taps a la BB10.

    The basic premise and logic is:
    If I am looking at the screen/ phone, why wouldn't I tap/ swipe on the screen as against a button - below - the screen!

    Do chime in and add (or subtract) from the list!

    Physical call receive button
    What's so useful about it? Like what's different/ how much "more" efficient in receiving a phone call via a key press as against a swipe?
    Are too many people talking to two people simultaneously? One physically and another on phone - and - looking down to swipe is rude/ breaks eye contact?
    OR
    Need to pick up calls while driving? Looking down to swipe = eyes off the road? Aren't headsets/ hands free available?

    Menu Button
    One still has to look at the menu options on the screen? What's the point of those three dots (menu overflow) on the screen (right bottom)?

    Trackpad
    This is the only one that can't be called totally redundant. The most frequent usage being clicking web links and text selection. Any other usage scenario (where one wouldn't have to look at the screen, LoL) where trackpad saves time/ is more efficient than using the touch screen?

    Back Button
    Again, what's different in the swipe to exit/ minimise an app as compared to the physical button? Particularly when using the trackpad to highlight the minimised app - before - hitting the back button!
    OR
    Why would one use the physical button to go back to the previous screen while - not - looking at the screen? Plus, isn't there a swipe - and - a back icon - on - the screen I'm looking at!

    End Button
    For ending calls from any screen while multitasking (like going through the Hub/ Docs etc during the call). Yep, that's somewhat useful. But how about a small system wide overlay that's always present during a call with a call disconnect icon (similar to the current music controls overlay). I'll be looking at the screen anyway, won't I?
    UNLESS
    One needs to end the call and their definition of multitasking is - driving and calling(!), cooking and calling (the phone would still become messy), writing and calling (someone should try this out, balance the phone with your shoulder and hold a small notepad and jot down something AND hit the Call End Button!), running/ jogging etc and calling (headsets are more convenient, trust me). What else?
    If using the end button to close minimised apps, again one - will - have to look at the screen - and - use the trackpad. Isn't hitting that x far simpler/ easier/ faster?

    CB10 @ Q5
    12-17-14 03:37 PM
  2. gvs1341's Avatar
    @Mods:
    Thanks for the title fix :-)

    CB10 @ Q5
    Last edited by gvs1341; 12-17-14 at 10:52 PM.
    12-17-14 03:49 PM
  3. donnation's Avatar
    It's a little late for this. It's released, Blackberry has made their stance on it, move on. Although I do agree with you.
    12-17-14 03:57 PM
  4. bbmtna's Avatar
    I'm not a fan of the belt at all, but to weigh in because it's fun.

    The only usage I can see for the actual call button and end button are for those days in the Canadian cold where wearing gloves hinders answering the phone correctly.

    That's all I got.

    Posted via CB10
    12-17-14 03:57 PM
  5. Prem WatsApp's Avatar
    I simply want to compile a list of reasons as to why legacy devices' physical buttons would be/ are redundant on BB10. Particularly when the corporation itself acknowledges that the Classic is - a means - to get the folks still using OS7 devices to switch over to BB10.

    BTW, even on my 9860 the sticky and non working back and end keys were the only keys I "had" to use because of lack of on screen swipes and taps a la BB10.

    The basic premise and logic is:
    If I am looking at the screen/ phone, why wouldn't I tap/ swipe on the screen as against a button - below - the screen!

    Do chime in and add (or subtract) from the list!

    Physical call receive button
    What's so useful about it? Like what's different/ how much "more" efficient in receiving a phone call via a key press as against a swipe?
    Are too many people talking to two people simultaneously? One physically and another on phone - and - looking down to swipe is rude/ breaks eye contact?
    OR
    Need to pick up calls while driving? Looking down to swipe = eyes off the road? Aren't headsets/ hands free available?

    Menu Button
    One still has to look at the menu options on the screen? What's the point of those three dots (menu overflow) on the screen (right bottom)?

    Trackpad
    This is the only one that can't be called totally redundant. The most frequent usage being clicking web links and text selection. Any other usage scenario (where one wouldn't have to look at the screen, LoL) where trackpad saves time/ is more efficient than using the touch screen?

    Back Button
    Again, what's different in the swipe to exit/ minimise an app as compared to the physical button? Particularly when using the trackpad to highlight the minimised app - before - hitting the back button!
    OR
    Why would one use the physical button to go back to the previous screen while - not - looking at the screen? Plus, isn't there a swipe - and - a back icon - on - the screen I'm looking at!

    End Button
    For ending calls from any screen while multitasking (like going through the Hub/ Docs etc during the call). Yep, that's somewhat useful. But how about a small system wide overlay that's always present during a call with a call disconnect icon (similar to the current music controls overlay). I'll be looking at the screen anyway, won't I?
    UNLESS
    One needs to end the call and their definition of multitasking is - driving and calling(!), cooking and calling (the phone would still become messy), writing and calling (someone should try this out, balance the phone with your shoulder and hold a small notepad and jot down something AND hit the Call End Button!), running/ jogging etc and calling (headsets are more convenient, trust me). What else?
    If using the end button to close minimised apps, again one - will - have to look at the screen - and - use the trackpad. Isn't hitting that x far simpler/ easier/ faster?

    CB10 @ Q5
    If someone is able to operate the Classic coming straight from the Bold, and no idea about swipes and gestures, they've done well.

    Bold users then will get the hang of it (grasp the gestures), and can be weaned off the trackpad and buttons (for most of the tasks, eventually completely). Just the text editing will be superior with trackpad, no doubt.




      Zzzzwipetypetapped from The Maskport - Zzzzmoqin'....  
    12-17-14 03:58 PM
  6. gvs1341's Avatar
    It's a little late for this. It's released, Blackberry has made their stance on it, move on. Although I do agree with you.
    Actually quite a few folks around here were asking/ wanting some form of tool belt in full touch form factor. And I didn't want to repeatedly write all this in all those threads! :-)

    CB10 @ Q5
    12-17-14 04:11 PM
  7. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    12-17-14 06:20 PM
  8. redlightblinking's Avatar
    I simply want to compile a list of reasons as to why legacy devices' physical buttons would be/ are redundant on BB10. Particularly when the corporation itself acknowledges that the Classic is - a means - to get the folks still using OS7 devices to switch over to BB10.

    BTW, even on my 9860 the sticky and non working back and end keys were the only keys I "had" to use because of lack of on screen swipes and taps a la BB10.

    The basic premise and logic is:
    If I am looking at the screen/ phone, why wouldn't I tap/ swipe on the screen as against a button - below - the screen!

    Do chime in and add (or subtract) from the list!
    Because pushing a button is faster than the other option.
    Because you're wearing gloves in the winter.
    Because it's easier and can be done just by feel.

    And this is all assuming the phone is already ringing. If you are making a call.....you save even more time.

    Next.

    Physical call receive button
    What's so useful about it? Like what's different/ how much "more" efficient in receiving a phone call via a key press as against a swipe?
    Are too many people talking to two people simultaneously? One physically and another on phone - and - looking down to swipe is rude/ breaks eye contact?
    OR
    Need to pick up calls while driving? Looking down to swipe = eyes off the road? Aren't headsets/ hands free available?
    Seems like you're asking the same question again, so the answer is the same: it's faster, more consistent, and can be done by feel....with gloves.
    What do hands free headsets have to do with anything?

    Menu Button
    One still has to look at the menu options on the screen? What's the point of those three dots (menu overflow) on the screen (right bottom)?

    Trackpad
    You can still use those if you like to take more time. Perhaps if you're retired. Maybe you're on the beach and just don't want to leave. But for the rest of us counting every nano-second we have to bang out income-producing communications, the slight motion and pressure of the thumb to do EVERYTHING beats any glass align and swipe/touch.

    Trackpad
    This is the only one that can't be called totally redundant. The most frequent usage being clicking web links and text selection. Any other usage scenario (where one wouldn't have to look at the screen, LoL) where trackpad saves time/ is more efficient than using the touch screen?
    I guess you don't own a bold and didnt' watch the video today. The trackpad is also a shortcut button that brings up menus...the ones it KNOWS you want to use next....and a second push executes that function. Again...speed. speed. speed. While one handed walking through an airport.

    Back Button
    Again, what's different in the swipe to exit/ minimise an app as compared to the physical button? Particularly when using the trackpad to highlight the minimised app - before - hitting the back button!
    OR
    Why would one use the physical button to go back to the previous screen while - not - looking at the screen? Plus, isn't there a swipe - and - a back icon - on - the screen I'm looking at!

    [
    This is probably the most used button on my 9900. In constant use because it's perfectly located under the thumb to quickly reverse web pages, to go back to previous screen, and to get to home screen. The back key on the glass screen is a reach for the thumb (if holding right handed) and the entire belt allows you to just rest your thumb over it and glide from key to key....as opposed to a glass screen that forces you to pick up and then re-touch to avoid unwanted action.

    Not sure what you're asking about not looking at the screen. Again....speed. speed. speed. accuracy. accuracy. accuracy.

    End Button
    For ending calls from any screen while multitasking (like going through the Hub/ Docs etc during the call). Yep, that's somewhat useful. But how about a small system wide overlay that's always present during a call with a call disconnect icon (similar to the current music controls overlay). I'll be looking at the screen anyway, won't I?
    UNLESS
    One needs to end the call and their definition of multitasking is - driving and calling(!), cooking and calling (the phone would still become messy), writing and calling (someone should try this out, balance the phone with your shoulder and hold a small notepad and jot down something AND hit the Call End Button!), running/ jogging etc and calling (headsets are more convenient, trust me). What else?

    CB10 @ Q5
    Sounds like you're making up extreme reasons that a clumsy person might accidentally once per year press the hangup button on their phone.....as opposed to your face doing it when you put the phone to your head. Do you have this same problem with home phones?


    If using the end button to close minimised apps, again one - will - have to look at the screen - and - use the trackpad.

    CB10 @ Q5
    Why do you have to "look at the screen" The whole point of a physical button that you feel is to NOT have to look at the screen.

    [ Isn't hitting that x far simpler/ easier/ faster?

    CB10 @ Q5
    Are you kidding me? A slight squeeze of the thumb after muscle memory slightly moves it into place of the end key is MUCH easier than doing a quarter inch motion to minimize....THEN.....reach for the app and touch a tiny "X". Christ...I just lost money thinking about it.
    Xenolock likes this.
    12-17-14 06:43 PM
  9. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Why did they have to make the trackpad so tiny . Why not the 9900 trackpad ? not an epic fail but it is a fail.
    12-17-14 06:50 PM
  10. redlightblinking's Avatar
    Why did they have to make the trackpad so tiny . Why not the 9900 trackpad ? not an epic fail but it is a fail.
    How is it a fail if it works? If they made it too big it would make the screen smaller and of course bring out the silly "phone for yesterday" morons even more.
    12-17-14 06:51 PM
  11. momofteme's Avatar
    I know it seems odd to some of you, but some of us still actually do occasional manual/outside labor.

    I would estimate that 5-10% of my phone calls are answered with my nose, because my hands are either filthy/greasy/sweaty/ or covered in gloves.

    Some of us still use a phone and we are absolutely elated at the thought of one button to push.

    End call is the same answer.

    I have seen classic fans be called old, luddites, dumbphone lovers, all sorts of derogatory terms today, because we might prefer a button over a swipe.

    I am tired of it myself.
    Last edited by momofteme; 12-17-14 at 07:29 PM.
    ChainPunch likes this.
    12-17-14 07:10 PM
  12. Bbnivende's Avatar
    How is it a fail if it works? If they made it too big it would make the screen smaller and of course bring out the silly "phone for yesterday" morons even more.
    No the phone would have been a small fraction taller. A square screen is a square screen. I doubt very much that this little nub has the feel of a real track pad but I await for an actual 9900 / Classic owner to correct me.
    12-17-14 07:17 PM
  13. Bbnivende's Avatar
    No the phone would have been a small fraction taller. A square screen is a square screen. I doubt very much that this little nub has the feel of a real track pad but I await for an actual 9900 / Classic owner to correct me.
    Each to his own but the Classic certainly does not have a Passport build quality IMHO.
    12-17-14 07:22 PM
  14. redlightblinking's Avatar
    Each to his own but the Classic certainly does not have a Passport build quality IMHO.
    Have you held both units? Just wondering how you can make this statement. Even if Classic has a bit less build quality....it costs..........less.
    12-17-14 07:39 PM
  15. Bbnivende's Avatar
    True it costs less than a Passport. I have a 9900 and I tried a demo model. It just seems to me like a cheap out. Certainly not iconic.
    12-17-14 07:41 PM
  16. redlightblinking's Avatar
    True it costs less than a Passport. I have a 9900 and I tried a demo model. It just seems to me like a cheap out. Certainly not iconic.
    Where did you get a hold of a real working model? If it's the same build as the 9900...how is it a cheap out?
    12-17-14 08:09 PM
  17. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Just a demo at Bell. It is definitely does not have the build quality of a 9900 but that is my subjective opinion. Others may feel differently. I was disappointed.

    I do not understand the trackpad though . It is as if they took a trackpad from the smallest Curve and grafted it on the largest Bold. It does not have the look and feel of the trackpads from the 2011 devices.

    Just my opinion - actual experiences may vary.
    Last edited by Bbnivende; 12-17-14 at 08:39 PM.
    12-17-14 08:19 PM
  18. gvs1341's Avatar
    Because pushing a button is faster than the other option.
    Because you're wearing gloves in the winter.
    Because it's easier and can be done just by feel.

    And this is all assuming the phone is already ringing. If you are making a call.....you save even more time.

    Next.

    Seems like you're asking the same question again, so the answer is the same: it's faster, more consistent, and can be done by feel....with gloves.
    What do hands free headsets have to do with anything?

    You can still use those if you like to take more time. Perhaps if you're retired. Maybe you're on the beach and just don't want to leave. But for the rest of us counting every nano-second we have to bang out income-producing communications, the slight motion and pressure of the thumb to do EVERYTHING beats any glass align and swipe/touch.

    I guess you don't own a bold and didnt' watch the video today. The trackpad is also a shortcut button that brings up menus...the ones it KNOWS you want to use next....and a second push executes that function. Again...speed. speed. speed. While one handed walking through an airport.

    This is probably the most used button on my 9900. In constant use because it's perfectly located under the thumb to quickly reverse web pages, to go back to previous screen, and to get to home screen. The back key on the glass screen is a reach for the thumb (if holding right handed) and the entire belt allows you to just rest your thumb over it and glide from key to key....as opposed to a glass screen that forces you to pick up and then re-touch to avoid unwanted action.

    Not sure what you're asking about not looking at the screen. Again....speed. speed. speed. accuracy. accuracy. accuracy.

    Sounds like you're making up extreme reasons that a clumsy person might accidentally once per year press the hangup button on their phone.....as opposed to your face doing it when you put the phone to your head. Do you have this same problem with home phones?

    Why do you have to "look at the screen" The whole point of a physical button that you feel is to NOT have to look at the screen.

    Are you kidding me? A slight squeeze of the thumb after muscle memory slightly moves it into place of the end key is MUCH easier than doing a quarter inch motion to minimize....THEN.....reach for the app and touch a tiny "X". Christ...I just lost money thinking about it.
    ...
    I definitely agree with the your key point: you really are the person who's trying to save "every nano second"!

    You read what I wrote, albeit hurriedly, and therefore didn't comprehend it properly. :-)

    Usage with gloves scenario I agree with, but then Android devices with capacitive keys should be at a disadvantage too, both in terms of usage, and sales.

    Handsfree was in reference to receiving/ sending calls while driving/ jogging etc.

    The trackpad brings up menus? Trackpad is used to highlight/ select/ execute the options & menus that open up via the physical menu button. You select and click through that little list of options without looking at them/ "walking through the airport"?

    The upward swipe to minimise apps starts exactly from the same physical location below the screen where the tool belt buttons would be, and the swipe isn't supposed to be till the top of the screen to be a chore/ nuisance.

    To close that app - I need to look at the screen while navigating to that particular active frame and then hit the back/ end button. Or maybe you don't keep many active frames up on your screen.

    While looking at/ reading something on the screen with the device in my hand, it definitely is not a cumbersome chore to use my thumb to swipe back to previous page or tap the back icon - because the phone is in my hand anyway and I am looking at it too!

    We're just talking about redundant features on an all touch device.

    On a touch screen device my thumb is already somewhere in the vicinity of the screen and I'm looking at the screen anyway!

    You definitely misread what I wrote about the End Button.

    Ciao! :-)

    *****
    These two posts might be the longest I've ever written on any online forum.

    And I definitely won't write anything this lengthy again, because my time is precious.

    But somehow I don't fuss over the "nano seconds"! ;-)

    CB10 @ Q5
    BigBadWulf likes this.
    12-18-14 12:36 AM
  19. gvs1341's Avatar
    Hopefully more and more people will realise this over time.

    CB10 @ Q5
    12-18-14 03:04 AM
  20. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    Hopefully more and more people will realise this over time.

    CB10 @ Q5
    No, hopefully the phone will sell well enough to cover at least development costs.
    12-18-14 06:47 AM
  21. --TommesJay--'s Avatar
    Very very very very very very simple: muscle memory. It's always simpler and more convenient and therefore faster (especially blindly!) to hit a dedicated physical button. I have always loved those on the Bold and I still miss them on the Z10 even after almost 2 years.

    That's all I have to say.

    Just to add:
    Think of gaming with a PlayStation. You master these games 100% blindly to the controll unit. And that's only possible because there are physical gamepads with physical buttons. Swap out a real PlayStation gamepad with a large touch screen slab that displays the same buttons. Night and day. Not only will you never be able to play as good as before (not even remotely), but you will also hate the new gaming experience.

    It's basically the same with the tool belt and always was.
    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by --TommesJay--; 12-18-14 at 07:59 AM.
    Xenolock and clickitykeys like this.
    12-18-14 07:03 AM
  22. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    If you spend more time looking at your phone than typing, you want to maximize the screen area; if you spend more time typing, editing, navigating menus and talking on your opine you want to maximize efficiency with your hands, which means using both hands at once on dedicated keys.

    The only way to resolve this argument is with a series of task-based benchmark tests that can be used to compare all touch devices with different flavors of physical keyboard devices. Then I think we could begin to agree on which devices are better for different tasks.

    Posted via CB10
    12-18-14 07:14 AM
  23. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    If you spend more time looking at your phone than typing, you want to maximize the screen area; if you spend more time typing, editing, navigating menus and talking on your opine you want to maximize efficiency with your hands, which means using both hands at once on dedicated keys.

    The only way to resolve this argument is with a series of task-based benchmark tests that can be used to compare all touch devices with different flavors of physical keyboard devices. Then I think we could begin to agree on which devices are better for different tasks.

    Posted via CB10
    Not sure why there's an argument, other than to justify one's own personal preference to others.
    12-18-14 07:23 AM
  24. allengeorge's Avatar
    The toolbelt increases UX complexity. It's not 100% clear how the trackpad/menu etc. button should work in all apps and in all UI elements, as a dev you now have to consider:
    1. Devices with touchscreen only
    2. Devices with a touch-sensitive keyboard
    3. Devices with a touchscreen, trackpad and menu/end keys

    Designing a consistent, easy-to-grasp UX for all these use-cases is non-trivial. I'm not sure most developers will bother doing the work - especially if their target market isn't the "optimized for every minute" individual.
    12-18-14 11:42 AM
  25. momofteme's Avatar
    I can certainly understand the developers point of view. I wouldn't think it would be much different, than having a well done windows app, with both mouse function and well thought out tab focus, and hot letters for keyboard use. But, I know nothing about developing phone apps.

    All that said...I don't care.

    I want physical buttons on my PHONE. I will take the app hit that may or may not follow along with my choice.

    The only non native app I use with any regularity is google maps. I do also have a td ameritrade app for my investments, but I rarely use it on my phone.

    I know hundreds of people who only want phone email text and internet...fart apps are fun but otherwise who cares?

    That is one of the problem with all of the reviews of the classic, the reviewers are cell phone junkies, they need to be to do there jobs well, and I understand the reasons they may not like the phone, or any BB for that matter, but they are not the target audience, neither is someone who desires alot of apps.

    The market is reaching saturation, a non geek can't tell the difference between a moto-x droid ultra, S5, Iphone, lg whatever, on and on and on. There is only one way to get a keyboard on a smart phone, and I don't understand why people can't see the value in that.
    12-18-14 04:11 PM
35 12

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