[bh7171]

BB10 was really only usable for the maases with the release of BB10 2.1. If I remember correctly it took almost 1 year for this update to be widely available. Before this you had to be a true BlackBerry fan to work around many different issues.
Too late in the game for most former BlackBerry corporate buyers evaluating the OS for their company. In the Tech world it is very hard to get the opportunity for a second impression.

You are correct. AT&T F'd BlackBerry to no end delaying the 10.2.1 release. It was over for developers and many customers due to that delay. It's history and was a damn shame. I know I personally went back to my 9900 until it released.

[brookie229]

Without supporting Lithuanian nor featuring Dark Mode, it was doomed to fail.

......even though it was buttery smooth.

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

You are correct. AT&T F'd BlackBerry to no end delaying the 10.2.1 release. It was over for developers and many customers due to that delay. It's history and was a damn shame. I know I personally went back to my 9900 until it released.

Correction: AT&T received the update late. Then had to make sure the update would not cause any issues. They found a few and BlackBerry had to make a few changes for the AT&T System, than back to AT&T and than release. So yup it was delayed.

[bh7171]

Correction: AT&T received the update late. Then had to make sure the update would not cause any issues. They found a few and BlackBerry had to make a few changes for the AT&T System, than back to AT&T and than release. So yup it was delayed.

What a load of crap. Apple's #1 and smart advantage over BlackBerry 10, Windows and Android is their autonomy to release updates. Everyone else waits for these mysterious BS carrier releases. I really hope you don't believe BlackBerry delayed releases and updates on BlackBerry 10. Or Android OEM's delay updates and security patches. The carriers here in the US have always blown on anyone but Apple.

[maltesh]

What a load of crap. Apple's #1 and smart advantage over BlackBerry 10, Windows and Android is their autonomy to release updates. Everyone else waits for these mysterious BS carrier releases. I really hope you don't believe BlackBerry delayed releases and updates on BlackBerry 10. Or Android OEM's delay updates and security patches. The carriers here in the US have always blown on anyone but Apple.

And for that ability for Apple to control updates, Cingular/AT&T demanded four years of exclusivity on the iPhone.

If they hadn't demanded that, there probably wouldn't be two major operating systems for mobile now. There'd be one.

[i_plod_an_dr_void]

No, it was good, but way far from being the best.

No, it was the best mobile OS, it outshone both Apple and Android by a long shot, I dumped them both in favor of BB10 at the time.

[i_plod_an_dr_void]

I even remember a quote from somewhere from the developer community that game and app development was actually easier and faster on BB10 then on the other platforms (a credit to the QNX RTOS and microkernel OS origins?). The developer went on to say that they could easily port those games later to the other systems.

[app_Developer]

I even remember a quote from somewhere from the developer community that game and app development was actually easier and faster on BB10 then on the other platforms (a credit to the QNX RTOS and microkernel OS origins?). The developer went on to say that they could easily port those games later to the other systems.

I would love to read why that developer thought that was true!

The SDK was pitiful compared to Microsoft or palm or Google or Apple. It wasn’t even close.

[i_plod_an_dr_void]

I would love to read why that developer thought that was true!

The SDK was pitiful compared to Microsoft or palm or Google or Apple. It wasn’t even close.

I think you are talking about BlackBerry pre-BB10 days, the pre-bb10 BlackBerry devices were using Java and had much less by way of pre-built JAVA SDK than the "C" libraries that BB10 did.

This isn't the original quote I'm thinking of but somewhat supportive of my original comment and a handy one nonetheless:

"Still, BlackBerry might not actually care what developers target their apps to, whether it's Android 2.3 Dalvik APIs, QNX C++ native, Adobe Air/Flash, or Java.

Oh, and then there's the WebWorks platform SDK as well. BlackBerry 10 is a literal smorgasbord of multi-vendor API's, probably the richest of all the mobile OSes currently available."

https://www.zdnet.com/article/blackb...-than-android/

[app_Developer]

I think you are talking about BlackBerry pre-BB10 days, the pre-bb10 BlackBerry devices were using Java and had much less by way of pre-built JAVA SDK than the "C" libraries that BB10 did.

No, my team was working on a BB10 app.

Before the android porting tool came out, the easiest thing to port to BB10 was actually openGL games. But that's because OpenGL was the same on BB10 as on any other phone. The fact that openGL games were the easiest thing to port was funny when you consider the slogan at the time that BB was about "tools, not toys"

The rest of the BB10 SDK (for anything not an openGL game) was really incomplete, inconsistent, and very limited compared to what was available in that same year or before from everyone else. We went to the BBJam in Orlando right before the expected launch and they were still figuring out how the location API should work! It was not good. Also the Dev alpha phones we got were actually running a PBOS build still. It was a mess. We didn't even get a working build of Cascades until after the original launch date for the phone.

Yes, they supported 4-5 different ways to port apps over, but personally I'd have preferred 1 or 2 that actually worked properly and completely. Microsoft was the best SDK around that time, but unfortunately their OS died. Apple was 2nd.

[Eumaeus]

Developer tools... apis, documentation, simulators... take time and personnel, neither of which BB was able to bring to bear. There was the famous “I give up” open letter from a dev in the Playbook era, and BB10’s “native, android, flash, html5” mishmash caused more confusion and fragmentation than flexibility.

[app_Developer]

Developer tools... apis, documentation, simulators... take time and personnel, neither of which BB was able to bring to bear. There was the famous “I give up” open letter from a dev in the Playbook era, and BB10’s “native, android, flash, html5” mishmash caused more confusion and solution than flexibility.

I can't believe they were still pushing mobile Flash when even Adobe themselves had disavowed mobile Flash already! That was quite interesting. Flash had no business on thin phones that don't have fans and have finite battery capacity. Anybody at BB who had ever visited a Flash site and heard his/her laptop fans go on full tilt should have put 2 and 2 together!

But, yes, of course, Microsoft was building from their best-in-class IDE that they've been developing for decades. Their .Net framework already had massive investment behind it. Their compiler teams alone are probably larger than the entire BB10 staff at its height. Apple, similarly, has more people working on LLVM and Xcode alone than BB10 probably had doing the whole SDK or maybe even the whole OS.

So, agreed, it's a bit unfair to compare them. But it's also important to understand how far behind they were on dev tools when BB10 came out.

[Eumaeus]

app_Developer, just for the record, you have been a voice of expertise, experience, and sane sense on these boards for many years. I have always valued your comments.

[app_Developer]

app_Developer, just for the record, you have been a voice of expertise, experience, and sane sense on these boards for many years. I have always valued your comments.

Well, thank you, that's kind of you.

I found the Playbook open letter you were talking about (It's kind of funny): https://web.archive.org/web/20130408...02/you-win-rim

The BB10 SDK was a newer version of the Playbook stuff. (BB10 itself was really a newer version of PBOS).

So by the time the Z10 shipped, the SDK was better than Jamie Murai's experience. But it was still pretty rough. I think the sim did still require VMware. Maybe they had it working on VirtualBox also. I can't remember. That's not necessarily their fault, since they didn't have a desktop OS to host their own tools on (like Apple and Microsoft do)

[Eumaeus]

Well, thank you, that's kind of you.

I found the Playbook open letter you were talking about (It's kind of funny): https://web.archive.org/web/20130408...02/you-win-rim

The BB10 SDK was a newer version of the Playbook stuff. (BB10 itself was really a newer version of PBOS).

So by the time the Z10 shipped, the SDK was better than Jamie Murai's experience. But it was still pretty rough. I think the sim did still require VMware. Maybe they had it working on VirtualBox also. I can't remember. That's not necessarily their fault, since they didn't have a desktop OS to host their own tools on (like Apple and Microsoft do)

Your last point is spot-on. Steve Jobs taunted RIM by saying that they were faced with the transition from a phone company to an integrated platform. Back in 2009 or so, the derision here was epic. But he was right, and your point is but one aspect of it. Apple could write one simulator for an entirely known hardware platform. MS had a harder job, targeting an OS platform with an infinite variety of hardware, but they were used to that. RIM could not possibly compete.

That BB10 was as compelling as it was, is some kind of tech-Epic poetry... in the hero rises to super-human feats, against all odds, but it is too late.

[D BB]

Maybe some of you, didn't understand the meaning of "best os" the best isn't the one where app programming is easier. Otherwise the best would probably be Symbian or KaiOS. It's all about the user experience from a professional perspective. I remember iOS 3/4 at the beginning and there were a lot of tasks that it didn't (full email client) same for Android and WP. BB10 without third party apps does it all, and it's faster and beautiful. From a gamer point of view it was probably the worst or one of

Posted via Classic

[i_plod_an_dr_void]

I can't believe they were still pushing mobile Flash when even Adobe themselves had disavowed mobile Flash already! That was quite interesting. Flash had no business on thin phones that don't have fans and have finite battery capacity. Anybody at BB who had ever visited a Flash site and heard his/her laptop fans go on full tilt should have put 2 and 2 together!

But, yes, of course, Microsoft was building from their best-in-class IDE that they've been developing for decades. Their .Net framework already had massive investment behind it. Their compiler teams alone are probably larger than the entire BB10 staff at its height. Apple, similarly, has more people working on LLVM and Xcode alone than BB10 probably had doing the whole SDK or maybe even the whole OS.

So, agreed, it's a bit unfair to compare them. But it's also important to understand how far behind they were on dev tools when BB10 came out.

Blackberry yanked adobe air late in 2014 or whenever 10.3.1 was released...so no they were not still promoting it (yes Adobe flash was deprecated in favor of Adobe Air, but similar things)... the power consuming issues were with Iphones as Apple decided (flash) wasn't good enough apparently - the user community howled that Apple would not adapt Flash - many many howled their annoyances. Yes they went to html 5.0 implementation instead (but it was early then and nobody was using it yet because flash was widespread at the time) but so did BlackBerry. I think BlackBerry's browser had the best implementation of HTML 5.0 standards at the time. I don't think BlackBerry was working on the whole SDK by themselves... they were working with and using multi platform QT and its C++ tools. I'm guessing @DonHB ? was mentioning a huge base of the discontinued Symbian developers familiar with QT might have been available if the timing had been better. Obviously a VM was needed since BB10 was based on QNX so no surprises there, and developing directly on the phone was not and is still not doable or practical. So they used Eclipse for desktop development and VMWare as well for testing for Windows/OSX/ and Linux, not understanding why that in itself is an issue. Sure BlackBerry was smaller than Microsoft and Apple, but they partnered with domain experts to build the BB10 ecosystem.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Maybe some of you, didn't understand the meaning of "best os" the best isn't the one where app programming is easier. Otherwise the best would probably be Symbian or KaiOS. It's all about the user experience from a professional perspective. I remember iOS 3/4 at the beginning and there were a lot of tasks that it didn't (full email client) same for Android and WP. BB10 without third party apps does it all, and it's faster and beautiful. From a gamer point of view it was probably the worst or one of

Posted via Classic

The problem is you are comparing iOS and Android from 2008 with BB10 in 2013.....

In 2013 iOS and Android were very mature and stable platform... security could have been better (has gotten better). But in the end they did what "people" wanted, including a LOT of professionals.

I'll admit that BB10 had a lot of potential and could have been great OS. But it's a done deal that it wasn't great at lauch... because it was a total flop. By the time 10.2 rolled around, developer were gone... big percentage of apps in BBW were last updated in 2013. And most of enterprise had moved on as well... And Chen was cutting development to maintenance mode already.

It's clear that the number of people that want an experience without 3rd Party Apps is tiny... and won't support the development of an OS like BB10.

[Summer_Moon]

Had it had app support it was and is to this day superior to the latest Android or iOS version. Android and iOS are really just annual iterations of old operating systems. BlackBerry 10 was the most modern. Windows also had a lot of potential that was wasted due to developers swooned by Apple, Google and the carrier agreements. Money talks and BS walks..

We could say this about WebOS too. Just think... BBOS 10, Windows Mobile (Phone, whatever you want to call it), WebOS. All with their best functions mashed together into one - Winweb OS 10.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

We could say this about WebOS too. Just think... BBOS 10, Windows Mobile (Phone, whatever you want to call it), WebOS. All with their best functions mashed together into one - Winweb OS 10.

Still think if BlackBerry had outbid HP for WebOS... they would have saved three years and about $5 Billion dollars....

[Summer_Moon]

Still think if BlackBerry had outbid HP for WebOS... they would have saved three years and about $5 Billion dollars....

HP really wasted WebOS. I remember I was so upset with HP that I called them and bitched them out about it. They called me back several times trying to claim that they were working on developing WebOS to be better or something like that.

[app_Developer]

Blackberry yanked adobe air late in 2014 or whenever 10.3.1 was released...so no they were not still promoting it (yes Adobe flash was deprecated in favor of Adobe Air, but similar things)... the power consuming issues were with Iphones as Apple decided (flash) wasn't good enough apparently -

10.3.1! Out of the gate BB was pushing an idea that was not practical in phones. And Air was just the same bad design extended. Adobe's designs were not at all efficient. There were easy to use, though. But they don't work on phones or tablets.

the user community howled that Apple would not adapt Flash - many many howled their annoyances. Yes they went to html 5.0 implementation instead (but it was early then and nobody was using it yet because flash was widespread at the time) but so did BlackBerry. I think BlackBerry's browser had the best implementation of HTML 5.0 standards at the time.

The power and heat issues weren't just on iPhone. If you ran Flash on Android back then the phone would get uncomfortably hot. Even laptops would get hot (Heat being a very obvious indication of energy usage).

QNX was also pushing Flash/Air in cars, and that works OK. Cars have great ventilation and a LOT of power. So it's a different situation.

I don't think BlackBerry was working on the whole SDK by themselves... they were working with and using multi platform QT and its C++ tools. I'm guessing @DonHB ? was mentioning a huge base of the discontinued Symbian developers familiar with QT might have been available if the timing had been better.
Obviously a VM was needed since BB10 was based on QNX so no surprises there, and developing directly on the phone was not and is still not doable or practical. So they used Eclipse for desktop development and VMWare as well for testing for Windows/OSX/ and Linux, not understanding why that in itself is an issue. Sure BlackBerry was smaller than Microsoft and Apple, but they partnered with domain experts to build the BB10 ecosystem.

yeah, like I said none of this was necessarily BB's fault. But the developer experience was disjointed because it involved so many different parts made by many different people. And BB did not have a cohesive or efficient or even stable strategy around bringing all that together.

Phones became powerful computers with apps that became much more complicated and sophisticated than what we had in the Symbian/BBOS/Brew days. The game came to Microsoft and Apple in that respect. Xcode is a direct descendant of the dev tools we had on NeXT in 1987. And Visual Studio is even more mature than that because of massive investments in it. Both companies also have their own programming languages and frameworks and compilers, all of which are heavily optimized and coordinated. With iPhone, you are using Apple CPUs with Apple compiler compiling your code written in Apple's own language and linked against bespoke Apple frameworks. Everything fits together and its all very efficient.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

HP really wasted WebOS. I remember I was so upset with HP that I called them and bitched them out about it. They called me back several times trying to claim that they were working on developing WebOS to be better or something like that.

Maybe... or maybe the simple truth is it was too late, even back then?

[thinkdan]

Man I miss those days. New OSs, features, form factors, were coming out regularly. It was exciting. These days is all meh...

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Man I miss those days. New OSs, features, form factors, were coming out regularly. It was exciting. These days is all meh...

In the end... most people just want things to work.

It's easy to experiment when a market is new and things aren't very stable and set.

You look at folding displays... how much has been spent (or stolen) on the development of these devices. And yet it could be years before they become common place.