View Poll Results: How do you reset your BlackBerry?

Voters
182. You may not vote on this poll
  • Good old fashioned Battery Pull

    72 39.56%
  • Soft Reset via app

    14 7.69%
  • Alt/Shift/Delete

    30 16.48%
  • Double Alt/Shift/Delete

    11 6.04%
  • You're supposed to reset it?

    11 6.04%
  • Battery pull in emergency only -otherwise Alt/shift/del

    42 23.08%
  • Other ('splain, if you'd like)

    2 1.10%
11-24-10 09:56 AM
54 123
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  1. exelant's Avatar
    Alt-Shift-Delete. If that doesn't do the trick, then a battery pull. Just curious, I notice some CB members do regular resets and or battery pulls. Are there recommendations for this to maintain optimal performance or is it a matter of preference?
    I think it is preference - but that is based on monitoring memory and keeping it over a minimum of 12mb. Many of us run about 25mb give or take 5mb.
    08-09-08 01:16 PM
  2. patrick.waugh's Avatar
    What you guys fail to realize (read my other post) is that you are NOT freeing up memory at all, you are just changing the amount displayed free, and not just pending garbage collection.

    The JVM collects memory "only when needed, or idle" so that you don't have to wait on the GC process.

    It's not a "maybe or maybe not" situation, it's how it works - fact. It has to do with the memory architecture, and the way that the JVM (java virtual machine works).

    Stating otherwise, when you do not know what you are talking about is irresponsible, and just perpetuates a myth.

    Tens of thousands of buisness berrys get used for YEARS witrhout having a battery pulled.

    If you want to waste your time forcing a GC, then just run the "Memory Cleaner" app, and then you don't have to power cycle (which makes yoiu wait, and wears on the electronics).

    The ONLY time you need to pull a battery is if you are locked up, and cannot soft-reset. OR in certain circumstances when trying to reinstall the OS after bricking your berry. Anyone who tells you different does not know what they are talking about, hardware or software.

    If you have issues, and they are fixed by a battery pull, instead, first try a power down.

    I have NEVER pulled the battery on my 8820 - EVER, and I program them and often test alpha software and run beta OS's etc.
    08-09-08 01:45 PM
  3. exelant's Avatar
    I changed the way I do things because of your posts, Patrick. I will only pull my batterey in case of a lock-up, and that has only happened one time to me. I like the memory cleaning utility; one can check and see the memory it releases - except that you seem to be saying the memory number we have been looking at is meaningless. Am I wasting my time doing a regular reset once a day, or even looking at the memory number. Are you suggesting I not look at the free memory or reset my Curve to bring the free memory number up?
    08-09-08 02:41 PM
  4. jerry12's Avatar
    Pactrick I will try it your way & see what happens if I need to I will do a soft reset.what you are saying is about what the uscc blackberry tects have told me they said the phone would collect its on memory when it needs more.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    08-09-08 03:13 PM
  5. patrick.waugh's Avatar
    I changed the way I do things because of your posts, Patrick. I will only pull my batterey in case of a lock-up, and that has only happened one time to me. I like the memory cleaning utility; one can check and see the memory it releases - except that you seem to be saying the memory number we have been looking at is meaningless. Am I wasting my time doing a regular reset once a day, or even looking at the memory number. Are you suggesting I not look at the free memory or reset my Curve to bring the free memory number up?
    Sadly, those on the Pearl without the soft-reset program are stuck, but good.

    Yes, you are wasting your time. The JVM will GC whatever memory it needs when you need it.

    Sometimes when you have left to many apps open (for example), or some beta program has run "file free" to zero, you WILL need to soft-reset (or power cycle if desired), unless you want to wait a year because then the JVM does not have enough free memory to do anything. But you still don't need a battery pull.

    In a rare case where you have installed some beta software which has changed its use of persistent store (added/deleted vars), AND you have not deleted the old version before installing the new, you may need to power down completely, to clear some "stuck" condition, after deleting the application. There is some persistent or semi-persistent things we do not have programatic access too, like the new mail indicator, which if stuck might require a battery pull, if powering down does not clear it. I'm still not entirely clear on how those work because RIM is a bit mysterious about those indicators.

    Pactrick I will try it your way & see what happens if I need to I will do a soft reset.what you are saying is about what the uscc blackberry tects have told me they said the phone would collect its on memory when it needs more.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Yeap.
    08-09-08 05:39 PM
  6. John Yester's Avatar

    Tens of thousands of buisness berrys get used for YEARS witrhout having a battery pulled.

    A large number also do pull there battery's to help fix problems. (RIM First step in Trouble Shooting...) And have never had hardware problems.....


    Also you have never seemed to reply in the RIM recommendation thread.. Why is that......

    Have you seen the response I got from RIM. They don't say to NOT pull the battery... but via the manual and also website. they explain the differences in a pull vs. reset...... Have you dicussed any your info with anyone from RIM... I would be interested in there response....


    Also here is there email they sent me.....


    Hello John,

    Thank you for contacting BlackBerry Customer Support regarding the different ways to reset a BlackBerry smartphone.

    Here is a link to an article in our BlackBerry Technical Solution Center that contains a description of the difference between a hard and soft reset and the reasons for using each of them.

    Article Title: KB03903

    Article Number: Differences between hard, soft, and master resets


    Link: BlackBerry Search Results

    The information contained in this article may be used for your reference regarding the issue, however we are unable to provide you with an official statement advising one type of reset over another.

    Hopefully the information in this document will answer your questions.

    Should you require further information on this subject, please don't hesitate to contact us.

    Thank you again for contacting us, John.

    We appreciate your interest in the BlackBerry solution and hope you have a great day.

    Sincerely,

    *******
    BlackBerry Customer Support
    Research In Motion Limited
    Tel:
    NA Toll Free: 1-877-255-2377
    UK Toll Free: 0808 100 7466
    Europe: +44 1753 558400
    Worldwide: +1-519-888-6181
    Email: help@blackberry.net
    Web: BlackBerry _______________
    Last edited by yester18; 08-09-08 at 09:14 PM.
    08-09-08 09:07 PM
  7. patrick.waugh's Avatar
    A large number also do pull there battery's to help fix problems. (RIM First step in Trouble Shooting...) And have never had hardware problems.....
    According to who exactly? You? Rumor control? The information I gave you is based on statements made by current corporate admins (see the admin forums), who are administering thousands of blackberries.


    Also you have never seemed to reply in the RIM recommendation thread.. Why is that......
    Sorry, I'm not monitoring or posting on every forum in the world. I do have a life.


    Have you seen the response I got from RIM.
    Is this like a trick question? Like I monitor your email. =)


    They don't say to NOT pull the battery... but via the manual and also website. they explain the differences in a pull vs. reset......
    And your point is... ?


    Have you dicussed any your info with anyone from RIM... I would be interested in there response....
    As I have previously discussed, my information comes from an in depth knowledge of Java, the JVM, and the RIM API on the device. Your "facts" come from where exactly??? And your "facts" are what exactly??? You seem to be lacking any facts or statements here, so not sure why you even posted.


    Also here is there email they sent me.....

    <snip>
    Differences between hard, soft, and master resets
    Link: BlackBerry Search Results

    The information contained in this article may be used for your reference regarding the issue, however we are unable to provide you with an official statement advising one type of reset over another.

    Hopefully the information in this document will answer your questions.
    Note their BOLD disclaimer. Moreover, note that that post doesn't tell you anything. If you want the real story based on the hardware, and JVM, read what I posted. If you want to believe rumor, or post your own version of reality go for it. What do I know, I just program them and understand their architecture after an in depth study of their developer manuals and years of computer development experience, while you have.... errr what exactly???
    08-09-08 09:50 PM
  8. tmember's Avatar
    I do a soft reset once every time this kind of post appears. Otherwise I forget. I just did it and feel so much better.
    08-09-08 10:13 PM
  9. John Yester's Avatar
    According to who exactly? You? Rumor control? The information I gave you is based on statements made by current corporate admins (see the admin forums), who are administering thousands of blackberries.




    Sorry, I'm not monitoring or posting on every forum in the world. I do have a life.




    Is this like a trick question? Like I monitor your email. =)




    And your point is... ?




    As I have previously discussed, my information comes from an in depth knowledge of Java, the JVM, and the RIM API on the device. Your "facts" come from where exactly??? And your "facts" are what exactly??? You seem to be lacking any facts or statements here, so not sure why you even posted.




    Note their BOLD disclaimer. Moreover, note that that post doesn't tell you anything. If you want the real story based on the hardware, and JVM, read what I posted. If you want to believe rumor, or post your own version of reality go for it. What do I know, I just program them and understand their architecture after an in depth study of their developer manuals and years of computer development experience, while you have.... errr what exactly???

    To anyone who uses a blackberry. Your treating everyone like dirt on here regarding this.... People have used these for many many years and have never damage the phones electronics at all..... You have been stating the same reasons as well. but what is backing it up.... I can type up all technical stuff as well and preach to everyone as well.... does it mean anything no, not at all..... It's all BS in your mind...... It's all good you know technical aspects of the device, but it doesn't mean nothing..... Christ we are talking about resetting the device to help fix problems... Your making it sound like we are disarming a toxic bomb.... Stressing NOT and NEVER... well good for you... but as you can tell, but have not responded to those threads.... not sure why...... Some people don't care, and they shouldn't it doesn't cause any damage at all...... And if you say different then I would like some info from RIM engineer's... I want hard evidence to you accusations.. Give me that.....


    You can view what you want.... But seems odd with anyone posting FACTS from RIM. and also basically tell you they don't care what you have to say. You have not responded why..... So making the comment like you have a life, that is all good , but why don't you acknowledge to what the company that makes these Phones has to say.....


    No trick question at all.... In the Blackberry Battery pull recommendation thread, which I am assuming now you have not read, I posted it there..... I can post the link for you if you like. or I can do what you do, and say "read my posts".......... and search for a hour......

    My point is that in RIM manual.. Which most consumers read.... and they are not programmers like your self and don't understand all you technical jargan nor do they car.... I hope you got one with your phone and also have read there web site... but I do recall you saying that RIM doesn't recommend Battery pulls and it is frowned upon..... You stated that you should NOT pull a battery... What makes you think so.... Will the phone blow up will it not work anymore.... It's all BS man....... I guess you can try so hard to make a point on what YOU want people to do it your way.... but it doesn't matter what they do.... Really does it.... Some see gain and some do not.......Mostly gain.....


    I posted because as everyone else on here I have the right to, and so do you.... Facts I don't need to have any technical programming statements to make a point.... I go by the manufacture, they made the device and they will honor it with the warranty it has... They don't seem to worried about it, not sure why you are......


    The Bold part... if you would have read te other thread... I made it that way to make a point.... RIM " Are unable to provide you with an official statement advising one type of reset over another."

    Email them and see what response you get.... Yeah they made be the same... But I have the origanl email if you would like me to forward it off to you....



    This whole battery pull thing seems to be a big pet peeve to you. I am glad...... Because no matter what it does it will not cause any damage and yes it helps out vs. a reset....... You can think what you want. But don't post like you are forcing people and scaring them as a result of pulling the battery.......


    Oh I just pulled my battery just for you buddy......
    08-09-08 10:23 PM
  10. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    Reseting twice in a row is like pushing the reset button on your computer twice in a row, and serves no purpose at all.
    Actually, that is false under OS 4.2.x.x. and 4.3.x.x. Those two versions had the built in ability to do a warm reset where the OS would cycle the device, but on the way back up the OS would not have to do a complete reload of it's core. That's the main reason why on the first ALT+SHIFT+DEL you don't see it hourglass like you do on a battery pull. Now, if you do the same procedure within 5-10 secs after the BB gets back to the homescreen, it will do a full reset (same as battery pull). With that said, as of OS4.5 and with every BETA so far on the market that I've seen, when you do a ALT+SHIFT+DEL, the BB will go through a full reboot which is similar to a battery pull.

    I think that if you really are this great BB programmer/admin/whatever, you'd realise and agree that before OS4.5 all previous OSs didn't have very good memory reclaim control. Even the Memory Clearn App (which only takes care of sensative cached info, not really reclaiming app-unreleased memory on quits) was introduced in 4.3. Even 4.3 had issues with memory leaks and unreleases. Actually, it's kind of false in a way to call it a leak, because it's more of the JVM simply not releasing memory that it's claiming for app useage. Now, with 4.5, the last few releases anyway, memory optimization has been pretty good. The device will actually do proper cleanup of used memory and release what it doesn't use. It still claims a little for normal opperation, but it doesn't keep taking and taking without giving back. It is A LOT more stable then before. I hate to say it, but this is more then likely to the fact that RIM is too cheap and stupid to have put enough memory in prior devices and with the introduction of a more memory intensive OS version (i.e. 4.5's new abilities) they had to finally get over their lazyness and for once optimize the memory management of the OS.

    So, in closing, some of the info you posted Patrick is, in fact, false unless you show the underlying facts. While a lot of the community has disagreed as to should be the standard practice for battery pulls, it's obvious that even RIM's support suggests one even to clear up the uncertainty when they have you on the phone. In all honesty, it's no different then someone calling me up and saying they can't get online with their PC. The first thing I have them do is reboot the PC. It's an easy action and does not require me to ask the person on the phone to test things such as network connectivity, IP stack IP assignment, etc. They reboot, and if they are up, then it was just normal instability and as long as it doesn't reoccur repetatively in a short period of time, there's no issues. This is why we have all come to the idea of "have you tried a battery pull yet" and why in the past with older OSs the release and reclaiming of used memory has always been associated with pulling the battery. The more recent soft reset options are just that... new and within 2-3 OS revision changes, even that was changed by RIM to more closely resemble a full battery pull (i.e. 2 soft resets required in 4.2/4.3 and only 1 required to trigger the same restart type in OS4.5).

    Hope that's clear now... if it's not... I guess you need to go back and reread all those manuals a bit more carefully. Not only that, but remember that "book smarts" is definatly not the same as "experience smarts". Pay close attention to how the device behaves under each OS version and you'll notice little details that RIM doesn't "publish".
    08-10-08 01:31 PM
  11. bmcclure937's Avatar
    Actually, that is false under OS 4.2.x.x. and 4.3.x.x. Those two versions had the built in ability to do a warm reset where the OS would cycle the device, but on the way back up the OS would not have to do a complete reload of it's core. That's the main reason why on the first ALT+SHIFT+DEL you don't see it hourglass like you do on a battery pull. Now, if you do the same procedure within 5-10 secs after the BB gets back to the homescreen, it will do a full reset (same as battery pull). With that said, as of OS4.5 and with every BETA so far on the market that I've seen, when you do a ALT+SHIFT+DEL, the BB will go through a full reboot which is similar to a battery pull.

    I think that if you really are this great BB programmer/admin/whatever, you'd realise and agree that before OS4.5 all previous OSs didn't have very good memory reclaim control. Even the Memory Clearn App (which only takes care of sensative cached info, not really reclaiming app-unreleased memory on quits) was introduced in 4.3. Even 4.3 had issues with memory leaks and unreleases. Actually, it's kind of false in a way to call it a leak, because it's more of the JVM simply not releasing memory that it's claiming for app useage. Now, with 4.5, the last few releases anyway, memory optimization has been pretty good. The device will actually do proper cleanup of used memory and release what it doesn't use. It still claims a little for normal opperation, but it doesn't keep taking and taking without giving back. It is A LOT more stable then before. I hate to say it, but this is more then likely to the fact that RIM is too cheap and stupid to have put enough memory in prior devices and with the introduction of a more memory intensive OS version (i.e. 4.5's new abilities) they had to finally get over their lazyness and for once optimize the memory management of the OS.

    So, in closing, some of the info you posted Patrick is, in fact, false unless you show the underlying facts. While a lot of the community has disagreed as to should be the standard practice for battery pulls, it's obvious that even RIM's support suggests one even to clear up the uncertainty when they have you on the phone. In all honesty, it's no different then someone calling me up and saying they can't get online with their PC. The first thing I have them do is reboot the PC. It's an easy action and does not require me to ask the person on the phone to test things such as network connectivity, IP stack IP assignment, etc. They reboot, and if they are up, then it was just normal instability and as long as it doesn't reoccur repetatively in a short period of time, there's no issues. This is why we have all come to the idea of "have you tried a battery pull yet" and why in the past with older OSs the release and reclaiming of used memory has always been associated with pulling the battery. The more recent soft reset options are just that... new and within 2-3 OS revision changes, even that was changed by RIM to more closely resemble a full battery pull (i.e. 2 soft resets required in 4.2/4.3 and only 1 required to trigger the same restart type in OS4.5).

    Hope that's clear now... if it's not... I guess you need to go back and reread all those manuals a bit more carefully. Not only that, but remember that "book smarts" is definatly not the same as "experience smarts". Pay close attention to how the device behaves under each OS version and you'll notice little details that RIM doesn't "publish".
    Thank you for an alternative and factual response It is nice to see some information backing up an opinion...
    08-10-08 02:43 PM
  12. waydavis's Avatar
    I usually use the alt del shift to reset the phone but on occasion I just do a battery pull!

    Charlie
    This dosen't work for me on the 8120, unless I'm doing something wrong.
    08-10-08 03:00 PM
  13. bmcclure937's Avatar
    This dosen't work for me on the 8120, unless I'm doing something wrong.
    You are unable to do this key-combo on the Pearl for a soft reset.

    You need to get the 'Soft Reset Application'
    08-10-08 03:03 PM
  14. patrick.waugh's Avatar
    My posts are accurate, and do not refer to older beta OS's. No one cares about the behavior of an OS that is not in service. So how that worked is irrelivent to the discussion. The point is that battery pulls are not now required, which I support with the fact that I have never had to do it - EVER.

    If you want to pull yours unnecessarily, be my guest. Its your Berry. Many people choose to ignore facts and stick with superstition. And since you've never seen RIM's source code I don't think you can really judge it. Having coded to many other API's I thiink they've done a great job putting out info for developers. If you don't perhaps you should look into their partner program.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    08-10-08 03:38 PM
  15. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    My posts are accurate, and do not refer to older beta OS's. No one cares about the behavior of an OS that is not in service. So how that worked is irrelivent to the discussion. The point is that battery pulls are not now required, which I support with the fact that I have never had to do it - EVER.
    Perhaps you need to go back and reread my post. I see reading comprehension is not a forte. The BETA releases that I was refering to were the 4.5 versions. The previous 4.2.x.x and 4.3.x.x are most definitely "released" versions and they behave just as I've stated above. Firt 3 finger salute is a soft reset, an immediate one after that is a full reset (just like a battery pull). Bottom line, once 4.5 is released to the public for general use, you really won't have to pull the battery anymore on a QWERTY BB because the ALT+SHIFT+DEL will be a "full reset" not a warm one.

    Let me enlighten you on another fact if you don't believe me. On a BB which has OS 4.2.x.x (take your pick what version), do a soft keyboard reset (make sure it's the first one so it doesn't hourglass) and look in the system log and see how the reset is referenced... that's right... WARM RESTART DETECTED. While you're at it, also check out the memory available before you do that reset, then check it afterwards, you'll noticed that it hasn't changed... just as I expressed in my previous post. Now do another reset quickly after it and make sure it's a full one... check the logs (no warm reset referenced) and memory get released as well, just like a battery pull reset would.

    And since you've never seen RIM's source code I don't think you can really judge it. Having coded to many other API's I thiink they've done a great job putting out info for developers. If you don't perhaps you should look into their partner program.
    I'm not going to go into details here, but just remember who brought community users the 8830 ringer boost under OS4.5.
    08-10-08 05:19 PM
  16. John Yester's Avatar
    My posts are accurate, and do not refer to older beta OS's. No one cares about the behavior of an OS that is not in service. So how that worked is irrelivent to the discussion. The point is that battery pulls are not now required, which I support with the fact that I have never had to do it - EVER.

    If you want to pull yours unnecessarily, be my guest. Its your Berry. Many people choose to ignore facts and stick with superstition. And since you've never seen RIM's source code I don't think you can really judge it. Having coded to many other API's I thiink they've done a great job putting out info for developers. If you don't perhaps you should look into their partner program.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

    Your posts are not accurate at all.. Patrick, explain why your stories always are changing one minute it's battery pulls can damage your device then the next minute you state that if you want to do it, then it's fine..... What is the reason you don't seem to agree with RIM.... You use your technical jargon to give people a run around of a true answer..... It's all BS bro.....


    Some people may respect your answers and state wow this guy knows his stuff......But in all reality you really don't care what others seem to say and always think your right.....

    No body cares that you have never had to do a battery pull. but for us it fixes problems I don't know how you seem that is not right...... just don't bash us on something we do is RIGHT and not WRONG


    I know some people who always think they're right. And they're not content in simply believing they are the ultimate authority on any topic you might care to bring up. They have to point out how you're wrong about it. I've often wondered why they feel it's necessary to do this. Why can't they simply bask in the personal knowledge that they know the answer without trying to prove that you're wrong?
    It's interesting to watch the dynamics at play when two characters who are both like this get together. Talk about the irresistible force meeting the immovable object! Usually, they can't be friends, at least for very long. It's just too hard to relate to someone who won't let you prove him wrong because he's too busy trying to prove you're wrong.
    Last edited by yester18; 08-10-08 at 06:12 PM.
    08-10-08 06:05 PM
  17. yester5's Avatar
    I have never had to crap in a public toilet, and I've heard that if you do, you can catch all sorts of STD's. So with my unlimited expertise, I recommend that no one should EVER use a public toilet, because I have never done it...EVER!!! If you want to tempt fate and do it, then go right ahead, but if you do, you are all much dumber than me.
    That is all....I HAVE SPOKEN!
    sheeeesh...lighten up for pete's sake.
    Last edited by yester5; 08-10-08 at 06:58 PM.
    08-10-08 06:22 PM
  18. Optid's Avatar
    I like to double soft reset everyday.
    11-18-08 05:39 PM
  19. landsart's Avatar
    which one is the shift key ?
    11-18-08 10:02 PM
  20. mbey32's Avatar
    is it really that bad to pull the battery. sometimes i have to do it two tmes in a day. is it messing up my phone in some way that i dont know about. oh and by the way im a newbie and i really loooove this site. i have learned so much about my curve 8310. thank you so much
    Last edited by mbey32; 11-19-08 at 06:05 AM.
    11-19-08 06:01 AM
  21. johnmorganjr1's Avatar
    Double reset for me. I hate battery pulls.
    11-19-08 08:23 AM
  22. wibblyw's Avatar
    Reseting twice in a row is like pushing the reset button on your computer twice in a row, and serves no purpose at all.

    Remember, the "file free" number is meaningless, as it only shows part of available memory. If your berry needs more, it will garbage collect it, and it is a complete waste of time to reset for this reason.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I agree. Most people simply don't understand how the garbage collection works. Caching can be good too and SPEED THINGS UP, depending on how it's been implemented :-). But I have had BB's lock up completely, and a battery pull recovered it. Soft reset is preferable IMO if it'll do the job.

    With my Bold, I find it loses the plot on 3G sometimes (full signal, BIS connected, but no data flows). Cycling the radio on and off seems to restore it for a while (as does a soft reset). Point is, even a soft reset isn't always required...

    Another point though - I find the voicemail icon defaults to "on" after a reboot on all the later OS versions. Really irritating, as the only way to clear it seems is to leave myself a voicemail and then delete it. I even have a string applied to a hot key to do most of the work. A PITA though.
    11-19-08 09:01 AM
  23. wibblyw's Avatar
    If you want to waste your time forcing a GC, then just run the "Memory Cleaner" app, and then you don't have to power cycle
    The Memory Cleaner app in the BB security Options doesn't seem to force a GC (free memory is little affected). It seems more to do with looking specifically for cached user data to be purged from memory. Did you mean some other app?

    But as you say, what's the point or forcing a GC anyway!

    I have noticed the browser slows down when the browser cache gets big. Bad cache management there...
    11-19-08 09:08 AM
  24. MasterXell's Avatar
    Double soft every day. For me, a battery pull is a special ritual. When I do a battery pull, I usually light some candles, put on some ethereal music, and place the BB on a makeshift altar. Then, after I pull the battery, I kneel down in front of the altar out of respect to the battery pull ritual.
    Lol, now that is taking it to a whole new level. I never thought of a pull as anything like a Ritual, but hey. To each his own.
    02-10-09 11:27 PM
  25. chaddeus's Avatar
    Double soft every day. For me, a battery pull is a special ritual. When I do a battery pull, I usually light some candles, put on some ethereal music, and place the BB on a makeshift altar. Then, after I pull the battery, I kneel down in front of the altar out of respect to the battery pull ritual.
    lol... Battery pull will also cure any mental illness...

    - Charles
    05-18-10 07:07 AM
54 123
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