07-09-10 05:50 AM
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  1. godzilla07's Avatar
    I think there are plenty of new users out there who will see the new RIM offerings and jump on board.

    there is a huge Slider market, will the 9800 capture it don't know
    there is also a fan base for Flip phones, RIM could capture that.

    Then you have people who get Blackberries as their first smartphone because they want the perceived durability of a smaller screen over a full screen.

    Many people are coming back from iPhones/Androids NOW with more options and a smoother OS, they will still come back maybe more.


    OH! and QNX was open source before RIM purchased it so they could already have 6 months of development before making the purchase, so it wont exactly be like NeXt but we can hope that it does something for the platform and make RIM a consumer contender.
    RIM may be getting new users, but it's the low-end. Their revenue per device is lower than what it was during their heyday.

    Your reasoning for the smaller screen is pretty laughable. They don't get BlackBerrys because the screen is more durable because it's smaller. They get one because they're cheap or work gave them one. Also, touchscreens don't shatter like they used to. Gorilla Glass is pretty widespread (save the iPhone), and you can beat on the screen with a pen without causing a mark.

    I don't see anyone coming back from Android. I don't see anyone coming back from the iPhone except for AT&T users.

    "The slider market" and "the flip market" don't really exist. I don't see many people holding onto their 82xx devices because they enjoy the flip form factor. RIM went with the slider form factor because they felt it would fit their needs best. The legendary BlackBerry keyboard coupled with a touchscreen. Not because of "the huge slider market."
    07-05-10 06:33 PM
  2. T
    What does it matter why anyone buys anything? Is it foolish to buy a Cadillac when you can get by in a 1976 Ford Pinto?
    It's more like this: if you want a gaser, you buy a gaser. You don't tell the diesel manufacturer to start making gasers. Even if, ultimately, more people choose gasers over diesels, there will always be a steady market for diesels.
    07-05-10 06:35 PM
  3. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    RIM may be getting new users, but it's the low-end. Their revenue per device is lower than what it was during their heyday.

    Your reasoning for the smaller screen is pretty laughable. They don't get BlackBerrys because the screen is more durable because it's smaller. They get one because they're cheap or work gave them one. Also, touchscreens don't shatter like they used to. Gorilla Glass is pretty widespread (save the iPhone), and you can beat on the screen with a pen without causing a mark.

    I don't see anyone coming back from Android. I don't see anyone coming back from the iPhone except for AT&T users.

    "The slider market" and "the flip market" don't really exist. I don't see many people holding onto their 82xx devices because they enjoy the flip form factor. RIM went with the slider form factor because they felt it would fit their needs best. The legendary BlackBerry keyboard coupled with a touchscreen. Not because of "the huge slider market."


    I said Perceived durability, I agree it is laughable but it is what I hear as a negative for large screen devices ALL THE TIME.

    You need to look more, I have a client who is ALL Mac, they had BB's adopted the iPhone and 3 months later they are BB's again.
    This forum also has many people who at least claim to have gone and come back.

    The Slider Market IS large, HTC pre Andriod used to pump out sliders left right and centre. and the Flip Market is not a Pearl market but the people still using the Audiovox's and the Motorola's the Pearl flip got a couple flip people, but because you like touch screen, doesn't mean a market for flip phones doesn't exist, I would bet the age group is the 35+ group.


    RIM is still doing well on gross margin as long as they keep that up be they low/mid range phones or the high end flag ships, they will remain profitable.
    07-05-10 06:51 PM
  4. godzilla07's Avatar
    I said Perceived durability, I agree it is laughable but it is what I hear as a negative for large screen devices ALL THE TIME.

    You need to look more, I have a client who is ALL Mac, they had BB's adopted the iPhone and 3 months later they are BB's again.
    This forum also has many people who at least claim to have gone and come back.

    The Slider Market IS large, HTC pre Andriod used to pump out sliders left right and centre. and the Flip Market is not a Pearl market but the people still using the Audiovox's and the Motorola's the Pearl flip got a couple flip people, but because you like touch screen, doesn't mean a market for flip phones doesn't exist, I would bet the age group is the 35+ group.


    RIM is still doing well on gross margin as long as they keep that up be they low/mid range phones or the high end flag ships, they will remain profitable.
    Flip people don't care about smartphones. They don't want the fancy features of a smartphone, even a BlackBerry. There aren't devotees to the slider form-factor like you think there are. A vertical slider is also a different beast than the regular horizontal slider also.

    The markets you talk about are pretty much non-existent. So try again.
    07-05-10 07:01 PM
  5. avt123's Avatar
    It's more like this: if you want a gaser, you buy a gaser. You don't tell the diesel manufacturer to start making gasers. Even if, ultimately, more people choose gasers over diesels, there will always be a steady market for diesels.
    Yes, but this had nothing to do with what you said. You said "people are foolish for buying something they think is cool". Kilted asked "why does it matter why someone buys something".

    How does this relate to your diesel and gas analogy?
    07-05-10 07:09 PM
  6. T
    Yes, but this had nothing to do with what you said. You said "people are foolish for buying something they think is cool". Kilted asked "why does it matter why someone buys something".

    How does this relate to your diesel and gas analogy?
    Not really. I said people are foolish for buying a device just because they think it LOOKS cool; that's kind of like judging a book by its cover. (Just my opinion.) I also said I think many of the things many people think are "cool" are foolish. (Let's face it, people thought enron, maddoff, and subprime mortgages were cool, but that's another subject.)

    But still, the analogy is applicable to the general climate of the topic and many topics on the forum. So many threads are about how BlackBerries should be more like androids and iphones, and how RIM ostensibly would/should like to be like those companies. I never said don't like a pinto or don't like a Cadillac. But don't tell the diesel manufacturer to make pintos or cadillacs.

    Implying that the BlackBerry is the pinto, and the android is the Cadillac is propaganda. The Blackberry is the armored truck or freightliner tractor. Let the android be the pinto or the cadillac. Neither pinto nor cadillac will ever be the armored truck or tractor. Even if BlackBerry is merely a diesel benz sedan, it's still not the cadi gaser, nor should it be.
    07-05-10 07:37 PM
  7. alby4ever's Avatar
    Many people are coming back from iPhones/Androids NOW with more options and a smoother OS, they will still come back maybe more.
    Again with the making up of facts, when every news article or report says otherwise.
    07-05-10 07:39 PM
  8. devGOD's Avatar
    I still don't get it. If you want a Blackberry that looks and performs like an iPhone..why not just buy an iPhone?
    Tell that to all the Storm 1 and 2 users ... and don't forget all the BB users that have iphone themes
    07-05-10 08:02 PM
  9. eth555's Avatar
    RIM needs to do something and do something fast. It seems as though lately they have been over promising and under delivering on everything from software, hardware, build quality, network outages, and not being able to get products out in a timely fashion. By the time OS 6 gets out Android will be out with 3.0 (Gingerbread). Same way with the rumored Storm 3 specs, by the time it launches Android will be onto 1.5-2 ghz dual core processors.


    Here is a more recent article. Apparently the shareholders are starting to get nervous about RIM's current product offerings also.

    June 25 2010 - Wall Street Journal - Research In Motion Shares Sink On Mixed 1Q Results

    Research In Motion Shares Sink On Mixed 1Q Results >RIMM - WSJ.com


    lol

    On 18 August 2009, Fortune Magazine named RIM as the fastest growing company in the world with a growth of 84% in profits over three years despite the recession.

    Research In Motion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    07-05-10 08:31 PM
  10. hoong's Avatar
    There sure a lot of rant going on here

    IMHO I think RIM is well position in this smart phone growth, they have devices from low end to high end, even though right now they are loosing out on the high end space, they are capturing the low end market.

    And Blackberry started out as smartphones for the enterprise and civil department (senate, fire fighter, police) and I hardly ever see a friend of mine holding a BB that is not given by his/her company. Apple take the lead as it jump right into the consumer segment and brings desktop look and feel to a phone with it's browser and iTune. Android like the old MS tries to provide an alternative with an open market (clone versus Mac).

    As what will RIM do to capture more high end device market from the consumer? Well, they have bought some businesses like webkit from Torch and a Unix like microkernel from QNX, oh and map system from Dash. And just recently they have announce in their blog they are working on features to enable consumer to bring their own blackberry to work. Some leaked info on enable BIS device to managed from web (wipe/backup/password lock), probably something like MobileME from Apple. And they open up the push architecture to all developers.

    RIM is stronghold in enterprise and trying to move in on consumer, and Apple/Google Android is stronghold in consumer and trying to move in on enterprise. So comparing them now is really out of the scope. BES is also not only a policy server, it also a VPN to the BB devices and corporate been using it for their ERP/CRM/Workflow deployment, and they can also route company calls thru it.

    Enough said, that's what the company behind the devices are doing, what phone to choose is purely depends on your needs and preference.
    07-05-10 08:33 PM
  11. linds0390's Avatar
    will the curve 8530 be able to receive the 6.0 update?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-05-10 09:08 PM
  12. kilted thrower's Avatar
    Not really. I said people are foolish for buying a device just because they think it LOOKS cool; that's kind of like judging a book by its cover. (Just my opinion.) I also said I think many of the things many people think are "cool" are foolish. (Let's face it, people thought enron, maddoff, and subprime mortgages were cool, but that's another subject.)

    But still, the analogy is applicable to the general climate of the topic and many topics on the forum. So many threads are about how BlackBerries should be more like androids and iphones, and how RIM ostensibly would/should like to be like those companies. I never said don't like a pinto or don't like a Cadillac. But don't tell the diesel manufacturer to make pintos or cadillacs.

    Implying that the BlackBerry is the pinto, and the android is the Cadillac is propaganda. The Blackberry is the armored truck or freightliner tractor. Let the android be the pinto or the cadillac. Neither pinto nor cadillac will ever be the armored truck or tractor. Even if BlackBerry is merely a diesel benz sedan, it's still not the cadi gaser, nor should it be.
    You're reading into this way too much. AVT and Alby hit it with their comments. You said you think it's foolish for people to buy a device just because they think it's cool. So my question is because I like the aesthetics of the Cadillac over the Ford Pinto, that makes me foolish. Or I just purchased a new 42" plasma screen TV because I thought it looked pretty cool mounted on my wall...much cooler than my previous 27" nonHD TV...according to you this makes me foolish. I mean, the 27" was getting me by just fine hooked up to cable.

    I also assume that you will not be buying a new Blackberry ever that appeals to you that looks better than the one you have now?

    And there is no comparing Blackberry to Android and armored vehicles and fighter planes and which Decepticon is tougher than the other one.

    My statement was that Blackberrys are far more seen by adolescents and kids than iPhones and Droids, so it's nonsense to say Blackberrys are for business and iPhones are toys. And to say people are foolish for buying devices (I'm throwing this out there for any device) because of aesthetics is foolish is nonsense judgementalism.

    I suppose it's not worth arguing about though.

    p.s. I'm getting the 9800 because it looks cool. I know, I know...that makes me foolish.
    07-05-10 11:10 PM
  13. T
    My statement was that Blackberrys are far more seen by adolescents and kids than iPhones and Droids
    ... at the school you work at, right? Smart kids! Must be a school for the gifted, lol.
    07-05-10 11:23 PM
  14. Moonbase0ne's Avatar
    You're reading into this way too much. AVT and Alby hit it with their comments. You said you think it's foolish for people to buy a device just because they think it's cool. So my question is because I like the aesthetics of the Cadillac over the Ford Pinto, that makes me foolish. Or I just purchased a new 42" plasma screen TV because I thought it looked pretty cool mounted on my wall...much cooler than my previous 27" nonHD TV...according to you this makes me foolish. I mean, the 27" was getting me by just fine hooked up to cable.

    I also assume that you will not be buying a new Blackberry ever that appeals to you that looks better than the one you have now?

    And there is no comparing Blackberry to Android and armored vehicles and fighter planes and which Decepticon is tougher than the other one.

    My statement was that Blackberrys are far more seen by adolescents and kids than iPhones and Droids, so it's nonsense to say Blackberrys are for business and iPhones are toys. And to say people are foolish for buying devices (I'm throwing this out there for any device) because of aesthetics is foolish is nonsense judgementalism.

    I suppose it's not worth arguing about though.

    p.s. I'm getting the 9800 because it looks cool. I know, I know...that makes me foolish.
    Pretty good points. Cool/Sexy is what sells. Even if one phone is better than another one, the one that appeals to the consumer as far as being cooler/sexier will sell more, more than likely.

    Fact is, Apple makes some cool/sexy looking devices, in the minds of lot of people(I think they are slick but alittle over-rated). Android phones, IMO, look ok. I like the simplicity of the Palm Pre. I for one tend to do my research and get a phone that I like, that does what I want/need it too, but that doesn't mean that I am going to get an ugly/outdated/plain phone(like the one in my Avatar) because the plain looking phone simply does what I "need" it too. There is nothing wrong with wanting to take good pics on your phone, or watch a movie, browse the web, etc...

    Also, in the last year or so, the other smart phone carriers(No, I am not just talking about the iPhone) have released some things that were cool from a consumer standpoint, but what has RiM released that was new/cool lately?

    You read any other website, and even this one, and a lot of people are getting tired of RiM renaming a Tour the Bold, and only adding more memory and a trackball, when the phone looks, otherwise, exactly the same. Or release the Bold 9700 in White! Sweet! But let me guess, OS6 and the 9800 are "Coming Soon". Well, all I am trying to say is, do they expect a lot of consumers to wait for "Coming Soon" when other smart phones(Again, not just the iPhone or Android) have a lot of cool, new features available right now?

    Just my $0.02

    And PLEASE donot bring up the business/CEO/Corporate users. We are talking about Consumers right?
    Last edited by Moonbaseone; 07-06-10 at 12:29 AM.
    07-06-10 12:18 AM
  15. kilted thrower's Avatar
    ... at the school you work at, right? Smart kids! Must be a school for the gifted, lol.
    Actually I do teach at a gifted and talented school. But even at the school I was at previous to this one which was a normal public school in a lower middle class/upper lower class area and nearly all kids have cell phones and it is not uncommon at all to see them with Blackberrys. More Blackberrys than iPhones and Droids.

    I had a chance to visit my daughters school which is up in Weatherford which is very much a hick town and it was the same story.

    I always have the wondeful pleasure of chaperoning the dances and the students will bring dates from other schools. Quite a few iPhones and Droids but a lot more Blackberrys.
    07-06-10 01:09 AM
  16. thymaster's Avatar
    Despite some hatred of RIM, the company is doing very well and have continued to grow successfully.

    They are well aware of all the high tech phone selections out there but that is not their business objective to focus on the early innovator because the market is niche. Mike Lazaridis even mention that their success is coming from the early and late majority because they make up 70% of the market share.

    Sure phones like the HTC HD gets me all hot and bothered but I'm just a middle class guy with an average income, I just can't afford all the latest gadget. Average guys like makes the right income to afford a blackberry that does everything I need it to do like a camera that takes decent picture, an ipod to listen to music when I'm bored and an organizer on the go. Anything else like a 10mp camera phone is just luxury that I don't necessary need in it or use it so it would be a waste of money.
    07-06-10 03:31 AM
  17. davidnc's Avatar
    Seems like Apple is pushing forward ..
    Android is moving forward...

    Rim is still pending that darn 6.0 like it's going to be something GAME CHANGING..

    still isn't released... the train is passing bye!
    The Smart Phone train is full of Apple and Droid users..

    Rim is still at the train station.. with no tickets available!

    *looks at tour*

    Yep , and they wont have as many passengers if they dont make some changes, I dont have to wait on RIM anymore so its a non-issue with me now .
    07-06-10 05:26 AM
  18. davidnc's Avatar
    will the curve 8530 be able to receive the 6.0 update?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I dont think so, Bold 9650, 9700 , and the other model( i forgot which it was demo on will) .Maybe the tour 9630 can as well but I think thats it except for newer devices made friom this point on.
    07-06-10 05:32 AM
  19. Pete6's Avatar
    OS 6 compatabilty is ruled by two things.

    The amount of memory available and processor speed.

    If you phone has 256Mb or more then it can run OS 6. What is not clear is if RIM will release two versions of OS 6. OS 6 lite for 256Mb phones and another, the full version for 512Mb devices. We shall just have to wait an see.

    As to processor speed, I belive that RIM will make that decision based upon model number and I have no idea where the cut will be.

    I hope that all 256Mb devices will be able to run OS 6 even if it is a cust down version and who knows it that is even a true statement for I am guessing.
    07-06-10 05:53 AM
  20. Pete6's Avatar
    I do not believe that RIM is being left behind.

    Go and look at the Adroid and iPhone forums if you want to see some of the problems they are having. For example, to stop the Calendar events sounding, Android users are having to make ringtones that are silent.

    We all know the awful problems the iPhone 4 is having with its dropped signal.

    RIM with its not so great browser and a few options missing from the OS is still, imo the best mobile operating platform.

    Android will move forward faster than Apple as they have been using the Unix kernel for longer.

    The real danger wil come from Windows Mobile 7 and that will be a beast when it arrives. Microsoft will push that so hard that the Bing campaign will seem tiny by comparison.

    If OS 6 gets here soon, then we should see an interesting Christmas battle.
    07-06-10 05:58 AM
  21. rjdangerous's Avatar
    The problem with your thinking is people are not buying these phones because they look cool, they actually out perform BB in almost every way.

    Not really. I said people are foolish for buying a device just because they think it LOOKS cool; that's kind of like judging a book by its cover. (Just my opinion.) I also said I think many of the things many people think are "cool" are foolish. (Let's face it, people thought enron, maddoff, and subprime mortgages were cool, but that's another subject.)

    But still, the analogy is applicable to the general climate of the topic and many topics on the forum. So many threads are about how BlackBerries should be more like androids and iphones, and how RIM ostensibly would/should like to be like those companies. I never said don't like a pinto or don't like a Cadillac. But don't tell the diesel manufacturer to make pintos or cadillacs.

    Implying that the BlackBerry is the pinto, and the android is the Cadillac is propaganda. The Blackberry is the armored truck or freightliner tractor. Let the android be the pinto or the cadillac. Neither pinto nor cadillac will ever be the armored truck or tractor. Even if BlackBerry is merely a diesel benz sedan, it's still not the cadi gaser, nor should it be.
    07-06-10 07:27 AM
  22. noxdiurna's Avatar
    Even if RIM is still making quality smart phones, it has few issues.

    - Lack in useful apps: you can cry all you want but the apps available on BB are not only worse than their counterparts on iPhone or Android, they are usually more expensive.
    - Outdated device: Sure, the keyboard is nice. But what the ****? You look at the mechanical specification of BBs and compare it to those of iPhone and Android, it makes even 9700, the better model of BB product matrix, look simply pathetic.
    - Too expensive: Being outdated is not such a bad thing. But you must be capable of justifying the qualitative difference with low price. 9700 should cost 1/3 of an iPhone at the best to be as attractive.
    - No global policy: My carrier in Europe finally announced OS5 update only 3 months after the first announcement in the US. I can install any OS (dedicated for my device) but to have Asian keyboards, I need to find that bloody Asian carrier providing the right version of OS with the right keyboard.

    A part from the nice keyboard, what does RIM bring on the table? It's for another market. Sure. May be? Or is it just us Crackberries trying to convince ourselves that?
    Last edited by noxdiurna; 07-06-10 at 08:01 AM.
    07-06-10 07:58 AM
  23. godzilla07's Avatar
    I do not believe that RIM is being left behind.

    Go and look at the Adroid and iPhone forums if you want to see some of the problems they are having. For example, to stop the Calendar events sounding, Android users are having to make ringtones that are silent.

    We all know the awful problems the iPhone 4 is having with its dropped signal.

    RIM with its not so great browser and a few options missing from the OS is still, imo the best mobile operating platform.

    Android will move forward faster than Apple as they have been using the Unix kernel for longer.

    The real danger wil come from Windows Mobile 7 and that will be a beast when it arrives. Microsoft will push that so hard that the Bing campaign will seem tiny by comparison.

    If OS 6 gets here soon, then we should see an interesting Christmas battle.
    You can point to minute Android issues, and I can point to every BlackBerry user complaining about that god-awful browser.

    WP7 won't be too much of a danger to the iPhone and Android in the beginning. MS will need to have reason to get developers to switch from those two platforms which are the dominant ones in terms of developer support and consumer interest. It may be a danger to RIM if MS can convince businesses that they don't need BES anymore, just get WP7 and it'll work with your normal exchange server, no middleman required. Include BlackBerry users coming off contract this year too, but Verizon here in the US has a lot of those Storm 1 users locked up with the Droid X.

    OS 6 looks outdated already compared to the iPhone, WP7 and Android. It and the 9800 will once again be meant to retain, not to capture new users. I remember when all the talk was about 9000 vs. iPhone 3G. There wasn't that talk about the 9700 vs. the 3GS, but rather the Droid vs. the 3GS. It'll be the same case with the 9800, not being mentioned in the conversation at all for the best phone on the market. There isn't a compelling reason to switch to a BlackBerry unless work gave you one. When the only thing keeping a lot of people on your platform is a proprietary technology (BBM), you're not in good standing.
    07-06-10 08:28 AM
  24. TheIgster's Avatar
    I've never owned an Android phone, so I won't comment on that, but I did have an iPhone for a year and a half and after switching to a Bold 9700, I wouldn't go back. There isn't anything I miss about the iPhone and I simply don't understand some of these comments about how Apple is moving forward, while RIM doesn't do anything? I think the current OS for the BB is great....version 6 is on it's way as well. I've had zero issues and my Bold does everything I need it to and more.

    I also love the argument about the number of apps in the iPhone app store as well. Do you know how many of those apps are complete and utter useless junk? Mere novelty apps that do nothing?

    Meh, I don't know...I'm happy I made the switch, love my Bold and would never go back. RIM is doing just fine in my books.
    07-06-10 08:30 AM
  25. noxdiurna's Avatar
    I've never owned an Android phone, so I won't comment on that, but I did have an iPhone for a year and a half and after switching to a Bold 9700, I wouldn't go back. There isn't anything I miss about the iPhone and I simply don't understand some of these comments about how Apple is moving forward, while RIM doesn't do anything? I think the current OS for the BB is great....version 6 is on it's way as well. I've had zero issues and my Bold does everything I need it to and more.

    I also love the argument about the number of apps in the iPhone app store as well. Do you know how many of those apps are complete and utter useless junk? Mere novelty apps that do nothing?

    Meh, I don't know...I'm happy I made the switch, love my Bold and would never go back. RIM is doing just fine in my books.
    Just wondering. What kind of problems did you have when you were on an iPhone? And if you are expecting OS6 to "catch up", I think that 9700 won't cut it.
    07-06-10 08:45 AM
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