[blue_k]

Wow, I don't know really. If BB still does FB, Twitter, foursquare, BBM, E-Mail, and web browsing and navigation then I'm still in and will buy BB though.

[udbhav]

but if you read, it clearly states that list isnt based just on sales. which is very clearly how i would (and so would any business selling their items) define `top`

that 10 is based on `popularity` (which doesnt nessecarily mean sales) and web searches. neither are a industry standard for `top` lol

Totally agree. Being an Indian myself, I understand the market. RIM is at no3 there in the smarphone market sales after Nokia and Samsung. So much so for 'phoney' popularity. Btw, for conversions sake, 40000INR ~= 800$. Do you think people in a developing county will pay that much for a phone? The average starting salary of a techie (much better off than 90% of the population) is about 30000 a month. Go figure.

[wafguy]

I think a $125 million net loss will be the best result RIM has for a long long time.

I love how this is the number being passed around. The earned $418 million in profit. They took two accounting write-downs (for inventory and "goodwill") and apparently they lost money. Even though the adjusted net income of $0.80/share ($418 million) is usually what gets reported when discussing profits/losses. For those thinking they're about to go out of business, please look at the press release highlights below. Even if they really had actually lost $125 million, they still managed to increase their cash by $610 million up to $2.1 billion, which means they could lose cash at that rate for two years before they needed to even start taking on debt.

Basically these results were expected, they hit bare-minimum guidance on earnings and devices and missed by a bit on revenue. The BB7 write-downs are bad new for the upcoming quarter (seems like the Torches are selling for a lot less as well as their lower-end Curves in emerging markets), but they actually have sold over a million PlayBooks now, which is probably better than a lot of people would have expected.

All that these results have confirmed is that BB7 isn't going to turn things around for RIM and that BB10 is their last shot. If anyone expected anything different, they were nuts to begin with. RIM is now left trying to make they best they can out of a losing hand (try to keep up sales of BB7 devices by cutting prices in order to keep expanding the user base) until BB10 can come along and save the day.

The ONLY thing that matters now is that BB10 blows people away. RIM won't go out of business before they can release it (, they probably won't even start losing money before then), but it won't pretty (revenue, profits, and device shipments will all continue to drop). But we already knew this was the case before this call.

From the press release:

Highlights:

* $2.1 billion in cash, cash equivalents, short-term and long-term investments at the end of the quarter, which increased by approximately $610 million in the quarter
* Cash flow from operations of approximately $1.1 billion, up from approximately $900 million in Q3
* Revenue of $4.2 billion, down 19% from the third quarter
* GAAP net loss in Q4 of $125 million or $0.24 per share diluted; adjusted net income of $418 million or $0.80 per share diluted
* BlackBerry smartphone shipments of 11.1 million in Q4, down 21% from Q3
* RIM to discontinue providing specific quantitative guidance
* RIM provides update on organizational changes

[ak1229]

30,000 is 600 dollars btw for people in usa and canada.

People make more money in developed countries working part time. Sad but true..

A phone in India is like a depreciating asset that they dont flip easily and is not subsidized.

[ak1229]

Net loss doesnt matter. What you need to see is free cash flow.

[block911]

did u read what it said though it "based on the popularity and number of searches on the Internet in March 2012." How many people search ferrari doesnt mean its the best selling car!!

To stay competitive in Indian RIM is slashing prices but it won't help.

"The price cuts show that demand for their products must be lower than they had hoped in the subcontinent. The cuts are probably an attempt to move more models of their phone and take a cut in the margin."


RIM (RIMM) Slashes Prices As Trouble Dawns In India
RIM (RIMM) Slashes Prices As Trouble Dawns In India | ValueWalk




"The age of touchscreens and app stores is upon us and RIM needs to figure that out and reinvigorate its product range before its too late and they have to leave the market completely. A phone with secure email and a full keyboard was fantastic for professionals in 2004 but it doesn’t cut it when put along side the iPhone and Android devices. The drop in price in India is just the latest admission of a battle lost by RIM in a war it is losing. Q4 results will be unveiled tomorrow the company’s outlook is not good but not too bad for this quarter. Its Q! 2012 that the company really needs to look out for."

Any now in RIM's response they are saying they don't care and are leaving the consumer market.

[Darlaten]

The ONLY thing that matters now is that BB10 blows people away.

Depending on your interpretation of the "consumer" comment today, the blowing away people will be hard to do if, as some websites and media are reporting, the only thing that RIM phones will now do is making phone calls, text messaging, and documents to go - anything "fun" aka "consumer" such as games, entertainment, and media will no longer be apart of RIM.

Personally, I didn't interpret the comments to mean that RIM will no longer have devices that can play games or entertainment as some people have interpreted their comments to be mean. But if RIM is listening, my advice is that they need to clarify their statements, i.e., will gaming still be possible on RIM devices? Will RIM still be encouraging and working with developers on bringing games, media, movies, radio, etc to their devices?

The clarification is necessary as right now, damage is being done, whereby consumers - the public - are being told by numerous websites, tech blogs, and radio announcements, that RIM is getting out of the consumer market.

[llllBULLSEYE]

The reason blackberrys are doing well in 3rd world markets is that iphones and android were not offered there but now this is RAPIDLY changing.

Its over.

Really... where did you get the info that Android and iPhones were not offered in 3rd world countries? from the guy at the line next to you at Best Buy or maybe it was the cashier. Trolls need to research before trolling don't you think

Yup in trinidad and tobago digicell JUST released the iphone 3 months ago and everyone is tossing their blackberries away.
Its over.

Yes my child it's the end of the world cause suddenly everyone's Rich in Trinidad and Tobago and are gonna buy the expensive iPhone4s and go with an expensive plan loosing their money saving BBM plan. Even simple human common sense will tell you that if they are using 8520 BB with no flash/touch screen is cause they really couldn't afford a 9900 or 9810 which are cheaper than iphone4s. So how all that all of a sudden they have money for an iPhone>
Can you see the future? Will money start growing on trees in these 3rd world countries?
Should I start packing my bags?

[BB10Apps]

To stay competitive in Indian RIM is slashing prices but it won't help.

"The price cuts show that demand for their products must be lower than they had hoped in the subcontinent. The cuts are probably an attempt to move more models of their phone and take a cut in the margin."


RIM (RIMM) Slashes Prices As Trouble Dawns In India
RIM (RIMM) Slashes Prices As Trouble Dawns In India | ValueWalk




"The age of touchscreens and app stores is upon us and RIM needs to figure that out and reinvigorate its product range before its too late and they have to leave the market completely. A phone with secure email and a full keyboard was fantastic for professionals in 2004 but it doesn�t cut it when put along side the iPhone and Android devices. The drop in price in India is just the latest admission of a battle lost by RIM in a war it is losing. Q4 results will be unveiled tomorrow the company�s outlook is not good but not too bad for this quarter. Its Q! 2012 that the company really needs to look out for."

Any now in RIM's response they are saying they don't care and are leaving the consumer market.

depends on the phones they are competing with. Is there more value with BB? I think so they love BBM. I know nokia is getting in there and so is android but are those phones a better buy? what do they offer. remember people in developing nations want to save money and BB does that for them does nokia or android do that? (actual question do they? LOL)

[Justthecrack]

Actually untrue... I have been to India and Thailand on numerous occasions... Apple cannot get the foothold they want because of the price point and it is not for a lack of trying.... As far as Android goes they are making a run at BB because to the really cheap phones they are selling ... the problem is many buy Android there and find it does not have BBM and the quality is lacking.... The main selling point for BB as well as price..... Would be interested to see how many switch back to BB.... A stat you will never hear about....

I have not doublt RIM will suffer losses in useres in that market but that is the nature of business.... If you think Apple will not eventually go the way of RIM at some point you need to look back at the history of Technology.... Back in my computer hayday 20 some odd years ago... the idea that A Novel...Lotus or Wordperfect could ever loose their dominance in the market was considered rediculous... They were giants and fell in a short order in less that 5 years..... Such is the world of technology

All you have to do is look at Apple's own history to know that not all companies that hit rock bottom stay there.

[Darlaten]

This just in via Alex Saunders via twitter:

remarks were wrongly interpreted. We are not leaving the consumer market.

[ak1229]

you beat me to it..

Alec Saunders ‏ @asaunders Close
@djtripd @BlackBerry remarks were wrongly interpreted. We are not leaving the consumer market.

[charlibear]

Just read this on MSNBC and I am horribly disappointed. I have been an extremely loyal BlackBerry customer even when everyone I knew was going to iPhones. The thanks i get from Rim is to be abandoned. Well this explains a LOT. I am having an issue with my Torch and ATT doesn't want to take it back under warranty but is choosing to send me to the Blackberry warranty center. Now I get it. Looks like I'll be getting the Samsung afterall..

[llllBULLSEYE]

They are not abandoning us you need to read the thread.
For your Torch problem go to a corp AT&T store
If your phone doesn't have water/physical damage you shouldn't have a problem.

[BB10Apps]

Just read this on MSNBC and I am horribly disappointed. I have been an extremely loyal BlackBerry customer even when everyone I knew was going to iPhones. The thanks i get from Rim is to be abandoned. Well this explains a LOT. I am having an issue with my Torch and ATT doesn't want to take it back under warranty but is choosing to send me to the Blackberry warranty center. Now I get it. Looks like I'll be getting the Samsung afterall..

Alec Saunders said they have been misinterpreted, that they wont leave consumer market!! so there is some hope and some confusion lol.

[app_Developer]

Just read this on MSNBC and I am horribly disappointed. I have been an extremely loyal BlackBerry customer even when everyone I knew was going to iPhones. The thanks i get from Rim is to be abandoned. Well this explains a LOT. I am having an issue with my Torch and ATT doesn't want to take it back under warranty but is choosing to send me to the Blackberry warranty center. Now I get it. Looks like I'll be getting the Samsung afterall..

Oh boy, RIM is going to have to issue a clarification first thing tomorrow morning. This is getting out of hand.

This does raise the question of why nobody at RIM caught this in rehearsals. Why didn't anyone come forward and say "hey maybe we should make it more clear there that we aren't abandoning the consumer smartphone market so we don't have to issue another release the next day."

[akaquietstorm]

Here is another article...
BlackBerry gives up: Manufacturer RIM to withdraw from consumer market and focus on businesses | Mail Online

[louzer]

As far as the consumer market is concerned, I did not get the idea that RIM was abandoning it. He stated that RIM is looking to partner because it doesn't make sense (and isn't possible) for RIM to take it all on themselves.

However, it becomes another chicken or the egg scenario. When BB10 first comes out, there will not be market share no matter how slick the device is. This market share will need to evolve. As we've already seen with the Playbook, a killer device won't sell without an ecosystem. And, from a developer perspective, it's not cost effective to allocate development resources to a platform that does not have a substantial share of the market. The apps that would make the ecosystem enticing to the consumer are the same apps that developers today are refusing to port to the Playbook because of the effort and cost for such a small market. And these apps can't simply be repackaged APKs because the 'portable' apps aren't allowed the deep hooks into the OS that native apps have.

At this point, I don't see a difference between Skype, Netflix, et al deciding not to port to PB2.0 and their decision once BB10 comes out. If these are the types of consumer apps that RIM will look to partner with to complete the consumer experience on BB10 then I'm not too optimistic.

What I would have liked to hear is RIM focusing on the downsides of the 2 popular platforms. RIM already has an advantage in terms of the BIS compression of data in the consumer space. With LTE phones and tablets sucking up bandwidth and hitting data cap thersholds way too early in the monthly billing cycles, I think that RIM should be focusing on delivering smaller compressed data more quickly. But if they aren't going to develop their own media consuming content, and 3rd parties don't want to spend the development resources on a small market segment's device(s), then it really won't matter.

No matter how you slice it, RIM is still cash rich. If they make the right decisions and roll out a product that is a WOW (even in a niche market), they might be able to get the right partners on board.

RIM did not start as a consumer device. They started as a niche player in the enterpirse. The consumer part just happened and, in my opinion, took RIM by surpise. The problem now is that BYOD is popular. From an enterprise perspective, it saves lots of money by not having to provide company phones. But the right combination of BB10 hitting a sweet spot with security concious IT and cool-gadget concious upper management, and the slightest hint at security breech from some of the BYOD devices, and the tables could turn again. I forget the quote he kept using, but I really liked how he kept referring to products that everyone will want.

[blue_k]

Alec Saunders has made it clear that RIM is NOT pulling out of the consumer market at all.

[xkon]

Yes the dreams over as forget developers writing native apps as without a consumer market the playing field is dead as most corporations lock down the devices and don't allow 3rd party apps like my company. This leaves very little incentive to develop consumer apps for Blackberry


An although 1-2 years away, we are planning to move to androids and iphones for work as well due to the ability to remote desktop in and troubleshoot instead of lugging a laptop and vpn key around.

Using bomgar and iPhone now... And I'm sad to say, I am happy I don't need VPN or laptop anymore.. As I always have to remote onto the BES to reboot it when it flakes.

[dbmalloy]

To repeat myself (posted on the "other" thread):

I think this headline is an inaccurate, even silly, interpretation of what was said on the conference call.

The message I heard was that RIM cannot do it all, and needs strong partners for some of its market segments. Specifically, I think the video and music store intiatives will be cancelled. I wonder about the planned cloud initiative. RIM will look for partners for its phones in the consumer market rather than trying to do everything itself.

That is not "ceding" consumer markets ... in any case, in the U.S. RIM has a small consumer market to cede.

Could not agree more... what market are they ceding.... If anyting this is a time to actually redefine the market you are providing the service to......

The music and video stores are best left to third parties.... I would be surprised if we do not see a cloud component from RIM... Seeing as they dropped a 100 million for an Irish company that specialized in cloud computing....

As for all the press... remember... the press is lazy... on person reports one thing... accurate or not does not matter and the next five wire services are using the one review.... That becomes the truth and is where a majority of the bad press comes from......

No I will wait to see what they actually do.... All that the press is doing now is simply irresponsible and again very LAZY...... In the final analysis RIM will write the next chapter in what happens not the press.....

[Justthecrack]

Isn't the video store already handled by Rovi and the music store by 7 Digital?

[blue_k]

Isn't the video store already handled by Rovi and the music store by 7 Digital?

Sort of, but they don't develop the app. The app is still developed by RIM. Sort of like how with Poynt, when you search for something the search is powered by SuperPages, but the app is developed by Poynt. They are talking about outsourcing that development to another company.

[Justthecrack]

Sort of, but they don't develop the app. The app is still developed by RIM. Sort of like how with Poynt, when you search for something the search is powered by SuperPages, but the app is developed by Poynt. They are talking about outsourcing that development to another company.

I guess they'll continue to use TAT for demos then. Thats one makret they rule.

[Darlaten]

I guess they'll continue to use TAT for demos then. Thats one makret they rule.

And that is definatley the quote of the day and a fitting end to one of the weirdest RIM news days ever. Well said! And it's so true too