01-25-11 02:01 PM
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  1. the_sandman_454's Avatar
    Well RIM certainly may not set the prices the carriers charge directly, but surely RIM's per unit cost they offer devices to the carriers at has an effect on it. I mean if RIM's per unit price to the carrier is higher than the carrier can comfortably subsidize at a given price and make some profit on, they sure won't be selling that line very long. Same with any company.
    01-24-11 03:32 PM
  2. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    RIM has no MAP's

    RIM sets MSRP's for full retail pricing yes, and those retail price options are to put the margins in the channel for everyone,

    BUT it is illegal for a manufacturer to set pricing, in Both Canada and the USA, I believe the US is even more strict than Canada in that respect.

    Apple Sells direct to the consumers, so they are able to control their pricing structure better than those like RIM who do not, My company has 2 product lines, 1 that is completely sold through distribution another that has online only direct consumer access and access through multiple distribution networks, it is much easier for us to control average pricing for the product we sell online vs the Distribution only, on the Distribution only side of things, across the country some products can differ in retail pricing by as much as 150%, on the other side we have a variance of only 11%

    The fact that you often can get RIM devices for extremely low on contract prices shows the lack of MAP.
    That is why I said "or."

    The MSRP has a direct correlation to the retail price. For new products, it's usually the same. Carriers subsidize, but they get all their money and more back over the course of the contract (or through the ETF fee).

    The [off-contract] prices do not [hardly ever] go down unless the phone is refurbished. An HTC HD2 is still $449 off-contract, even though it's only #49.99 subsidized. Same for Curves that are given for free on contract.

    Even when a device is a year or more old, hte off-contract price stays the same. The subsidy goes down, but carriers can do that because they make insane amounts of money off of contracts. They can probably subsidize most phones down to almost nothing and still make money off the contract.

    @ person below your post.

    You aren't going to get a decent high end blackberry for free.

    Curves, sure. But guess what, they cost almost nothing (the hardware is overpriced) and you're still going to get raped if you buy one on contract especially with a $30 data plan and Unlimited Texting. Bolds and Torches aren't sold that cheap unless refurbished or they're an older model the carrier is trying to clear their warehouses of. But that is true for any phone. When the phone is on the verge of becomming unsupported they will drop the price to just "get rid of them." Apple does this with last-gen iPhones.

    A Bold 9700 is still $129 on Contract, the same as a Bold 9780 despite the hardware being worse and the phone being much older. If you want it off contract you're going to pay the MSRP.

    This has nothing to do with price-fixing laws, which is what I'm assuming you're talking about. Manufacturers have to set prices because they won't sell merchandise at a loss. That makes literally no business sense. They sell at a price and set the MSRP. It just happens to be the case that 99.8% of businesses will take the MSRP and put it on the product.

    Of course, there are also rebates and such, but I can guarantee you they aren't losing money.

    That had nothing to do with it anyways.

    I just wanted to know what RIM's ridiculously high margins were so I could understand why their products were so damn overpriced compared to competing smartphones, which are obviously better built with better internals and some running better software...
    Last edited by N8ter; 01-24-11 at 05:22 PM.
    01-24-11 05:17 PM
  3. 67Tucker's Avatar
    I've put him on ignore since 3 months ago. But people quoting his posts make the ignore function useless.
    If they quote me, I must be good!
    01-24-11 05:27 PM
  4. the_sandman_454's Avatar
    If they quote me, I must be good!
    I'll have to start quoting your posts just to annoy folks who have you on ignore. Then they'll ignore me and I'll have to find someone who isn't ignored yet who is willing to quote me continually.

    That is a crazy profit margin, and much of it has to do with buying several year old hardware at bargain basement prices and still charging a premium price for it. It will be interesting to see just how long the market allows that to continue before sales take a hit.
    01-24-11 05:42 PM
  5. howarmat's Avatar
    I'll have to start quoting your posts just to annoy folks who have you on ignore. Then they'll ignore me and I'll have to find someone who isn't ignored yet who is willing to quote me continually.

    That is a crazy profit margin, and much of it has to do with buying several year old hardware at bargain basement prices and still charging a premium price for it. It will be interesting to see just how long the market allows that to continue before sales take a hit.
    isnt that what we are seeing to start right now?
    01-24-11 05:49 PM
  6. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I'll have to start quoting your posts just to annoy folks who have you on ignore. Then they'll ignore me and I'll have to find someone who isn't ignored yet who is willing to quote me continually.

    That is a crazy profit margin, and much of it has to do with buying several year old hardware at bargain basement prices and still charging a premium price for it. It will be interesting to see just how long the market allows that to continue before sales take a hit.
    1: thats Operating margin, not profit margin, and if you knew what the average profit margin was for most of your consumer products you'd think RIM was giving stuff away for near free..

    2: The Hardware Manufacturers that don't do their own software R&D are pulling the industry average down,

    as an example:
    Qualcomm: OM ~27%
    Broadcom: OM ~19%
    Marvell : OM ~27%
    Texas Instruments: OM ~32%
    01-24-11 05:49 PM
  7. 13echo4's Avatar

    The specs matter. An Aria has better specs than a bold, but it cheaper with a more capable OS on board.Plus, I had an Aria from AT&T, so what I say isn't just what I read on the box or some web site.
    Finally I agree with you but I bet you won't agree why. Im hopeful your talking about the Bold 9700. Yes I agree the HTC Aria speced out better. Even though haveing the same speed cpu well whats 24mhz? Wjen the aria has 130mb more ram, 256 more on board storage, and better camra def. I don't agree with the os remark. I don't think tjat tje android os is more capable. I haven't owned an aria but I've played with one for several hrs a day over a month.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-24-11 06:02 PM
  8. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    The 9700 was the top end Bold when the Aria was released, so that's a valid comparison.

    Why is an expensive top end bold selling for more than a mid-range Android device that outspecs, ourperforms, and outdoes it in capabilities?

    The Bold 9780 and Torch don't compare favorably with the Aria either, neither from a Spec or Performance point of view. They have similar if not the same processor as the Bold 9700. Same Screen Resolution. They come with 512 App Storage but only 227 or so free for Apps after a fresh boot-up. They do have 128 MB more RAM than the Aria, though (mid-ranged phones being released now are shipping with 512, though, with Gigabytes of Internal Storage and Android 2.2+ with Apps2SD, among other things)...

    Yes, Android is more capable than BBOS. That doesn't mean BBOS is bad. It just means it's worse than Android. If it was so good, RIM wouldn't be trying to scrap it.

    It's getting hard for RIM to even compete in Carrier stores with their Curve phones because Android and WP7 devices are being very subsidized aggressively right next to them, and look "funner."

    Not to mention the "last-gen" iPhones that Apple always keeps on the shelves for $99 subsidies (and are coming to Verizon)...
    Last edited by N8ter; 01-25-11 at 01:29 AM.
    01-25-11 01:26 AM
  9. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    The 9700 was the top end Bold when the Aria was released, so that's a valid comparison.

    Why is an expensive top end bold selling for more than a mid-range Android device that outspecs, ourperforms, and outdoes it in capabilities?

    The Bold 9780 and Torch don't compare favorably with the Aria either, neither from a Spec or Performance point of view. They have similar if not the same processor as the Bold 9700. Same Screen Resolution. They come with 512 App Storage but only 227 or so free for Apps after a fresh boot-up. They do have 128 MB more RAM than the Aria, though (mid-ranged phones being released now are shipping with 512, though, with Gigabytes of Internal Storage and Android 2.2+ with Apps2SD, among other things)...

    Yes, Android is more capable than BBOS. That doesn't mean BBOS is bad. It just means it's worse than Android. If it was so good, RIM wouldn't be trying to scrap it.

    It's getting hard for RIM to even compete in Carrier stores with their Curve phones because Android and WP7 devices are being very subsidized aggressively right next to them, and look "funner."

    Not to mention the "last-gen" iPhones that Apple always keeps on the shelves for $99 subsidies (and are coming to Verizon)...
    Aria doesn't compete in any way with the 9700, one is a slab of glass, the other a full qwerty, most people don't go to the shop undecided, they know if they want touch screen or physical keyboard.
    Aria might have better specs then the 9700 but the Aria has plenty competition from other androids.
    01-25-11 02:45 AM
  10. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
    Storm 2 vs HTC Smart. Your thoughts?
    01-25-11 03:48 AM
  11. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    Aria doesn't compete in any way with the 9700, one is a slab of glass, the other a full qwerty, most people don't go to the shop undecided, they know if they want touch screen or physical keyboard.
    Aria might have better specs then the 9700 but the Aria has plenty competition from other androids.
    The Aria doesn't compete with high end Android phones. It's a cheap mid-end android device - sold for the same or less than a Curve on contract. It competes with stuff like the Backflip and Flipout, not the Galaxy S and Nexus One class devices.

    Yes, Blackberries compete with mid-end Android devices.

    If you seriously believe a mobile market that is only 30% smartphone users don't consider all of their options, then just add me to ignore and stop responding to me. You're not worth my time.

    Everyone doesn't have their mind made up. Gross generalizations are valid here only when someone else uses them, it seems.
    01-25-11 12:40 PM
  12. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    The Aria doesn't compete with high end Android phones. It's a cheap mid-end android device - sold for the same or less than a Curve on contract. It competes with stuff like the Backflip and Flipout, not the Galaxy S and Nexus One class devices.

    Yes, Blackberries compete with mid-end Android devices.

    If you seriously believe a mobile market that is only 30% smartphone users don't consider all of their options, then just add me to ignore and stop responding to me. You're not worth my time.

    Everyone doesn't have their mind made up. Gross generalizations are valid here only when someone else uses them, it seems.
    If you know before you get to the shop that you want a qwerty physical keyboard (the case with most blackberry owners) do you bother looking at a touch screen device? It can be better and cheaper but it will still lack the all important keyboard hence the reason many people abound the world buy curves and bolds, what's so hard to understand about that?

    If you're in the market for a qwerty, what are your choices?

    And there's a lot more budget Android handsets out there, Tattoo, Wildfire etc come to mind.

    PS, I never said it competes with high end androids, where did you get that from?
    Last edited by belfastdispatcher; 01-25-11 at 02:04 PM.
    01-25-11 02:01 PM
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