[revo2001]

Must.....not.....allow.....anything......negative. ....to......be......said.......about......android. ....will.....counterattack.....with......comments. .....about......older......blackberrys.....like... ..Storm1.....or......budget....ones.....like.....t he....Curve

They can compare them to the newer BB's also, with the same result. I have a slow Torch. When the Iphone/Android users and I are looking up our fantasy sports stuff on Yahoo, I'm the only one waiting forever for the site to come up. I have to search slowly to allow the browser to catch up. I'm always the one who has difficulty navigating the websites. They get apps for free that I must pay for. It's like having a 2D phone in a 3D world. Yes my browsing experience is better than it was on my Bold but it is WAY behind the better smart phones. Battery life, at least they get some good usage before their battery dies. When I owned the older BB's they were the best phones around, 8300 and Bold, but not anymore. I am patiently waiting for the MOTOROLA ATRIX so that I can finally have the best phone around, with great battery life.

[CASH]

How did I get sucked into another one of these threads?

[CASH]

Must.....not.....allow.....anything......negative. ....to......be......said.......about......android. ....will.....counterattack.....with......comments. .....about......older......blackberrys.....like... ..Storm1.....or......budget....ones.....like.....t he....Curve

Epic post WIN!!! From the moment I read the first word, I pictured Terminator grabbing on to like a cliff or something as he was badly beaten, talking with those *i'm exhausted* pauses.

[iN8ter]

Vibrant with Official FroYo update:

Battery Level: 69%
8h 22m 19s since unplugged.

Have had Trillian pushing IMs all day. Did some SMS and made a few calls, witha lot of web browsing.

I don't see a problem with battery life.

IRT comparing Budget Blackberries: You can compare a top-end Blackberry like the Bold 9780 or Torch 9800 and it does NOT compare favorably with a budget Android device like the HTC Aria.

The Aria is less expensive than a Curve 3G for most people, and blows away lower-end Blackberries like Curves, Older Bolds, and Storms.

Part of the reason why Android is eating into RIM's marketshare so much is actually due to the fact that it's actually on a ton of low and mid-end devices that compete head-to-head with RIM's Curve phones, yet offer much better capabilities.

5MP Camera wiht VGA Recording on the Aria. 2MP Camera with QVGA Recording on a Curve 3G. HVGA Screen Resolution with a 3.2" multitouch screen on the Aria vs. 2.4" QVGA Resolution non-touch screen on the Curve. The Aria has an underclocked processor but it performs as well as any other Android phone. 384 MB RAM in the Aria vs. 256 in the Curve 3G. Aria has like ~350 MB App Space Free, compared to ~120 in the Curve 3G, not to mention the App Store differences...

I mean, you can make issue with people comparing Droid X phones with Curve 3G or Storm 2 class devices, but keep in mind that mid-range Android phones have specs and capabilities similar or better hardware and a more capable OS than top-end Blackberries...

That being said Blackberries aren't sold as being hte most capable, greatest devices. They are sold on the merits of RIM's services. The issue with that is that most consumers don't and probably never will use RIM's services, so they don't care about that.

They can get their email pushed on virtually any phone and SMS/IM is instant enough for them. While the deficiencies of RIM's phones are worth the benefit of their services to business users, they're just outliners and showstoppers to most consumers.

[tmelon]

I'll admit, I have thought of going Android. The only reason is I hate typing on my Storm2. I wish Verizon would carry the Torch, but that won't happen soon.

So the CEO at a company I service came to me and said he is dumping his BB Curve and getting a new phone. He came back from the Sprint store with a Samsung Epic.

After 5 days we learned:
Battery life sucked, not just a little, but after charging all night, he talked to an hour and it died.

Email sucked. Messages would be delivered to the phone, show up on the screen, then the next send/receive, dissapear. Gone from the phone, and gone from the server, never to be found. Sprint just scratched their head.

Reception sucked. This may just be Sprint, but he had better service with his old curve.

Audio sucked. It was scratchy, and he said half the time he could not hear.

So I all this phone the Epic Fail.

After 5 days, he went back to the store and picked up a new curve and has never been happier. Email is very important to him, as it is to me. As a consultant, my company survives on email.

So, even though I thought I wanted to leave RIM, this experience over the last week has cured me for quite some time. I was even thinking iPhone with Verizon, but I don't think I want to take a chance.

Just a little info for you if you care.

Sooo... Since your boss got a defective phone which means everyone should stay with RIM? Fair enough.

[iN8ter]

While I have to use a Berry for work, I have to admit I've been looking at an Android device for my personal use. Apps in the Marketplace work better and far outnumber the apps in App World. Online sites such as Chase are also embracing the iPhone and Android OS. Want to make a deposit by using the app and taking a picture of the check? Sorry, Blackberry.

If Curves didn't have such terrible camera they probably would have made an app for it. But a camera that bad can lead to issues. There's absolutley no excuse for putting a camera that bad in those phones. The Samsung Jacks are subsidized for the same or cheaper than the Curves, had a 3G radio before the Curve had one, and had 3.2 MP camera. Nokias are the same way.

I wonder what kind of margins RIM is working on compared to other manufacturers. Their price to functionality ratio seems a bit too high when compared to other smartphone platforms (except Apple, all their crap is overpriced...).

An HD2 is $449, for example, and so are a ton of fairly high end Android and WP7 devices. On the flip side, Curves are $349'ish unsubsidized and Bolds are like $479 or something like that.

I cannot understand that pricing considering the terrible hardware they put in their phones...

[belfastdispatcher]

Vibrant with Official FroYo update:

Battery Level: 69%
8h 22m 19s since unplugged.

Have had Trillian pushing IMs all day. Did some SMS and made a few calls, witha lot of web browsing.

I don't see a problem with battery life.

IRT comparing Budget Blackberries: You can compare a top-end Blackberry like the Bold 9780 or Torch 9800 and it does NOT compare favorably with a budget Android device like the HTC Aria.

The Aria is less expensive than a Curve 3G for most people, and blows away lower-end Blackberries like Curves, Older Bolds, and Storms.

Part of the reason why Android is eating into RIM's marketshare so much is actually due to the fact that it's actually on a ton of low and mid-end devices that compete head-to-head with RIM's Curve phones, yet offer much better capabilities.

5MP Camera wiht VGA Recording on the Aria. 2MP Camera with QVGA Recording on a Curve 3G. HVGA Screen Resolution with a 3.2" multitouch screen on the Aria vs. 2.4" QVGA Resolution non-touch screen on the Curve. The Aria has an underclocked processor but it performs as well as any other Android phone. 384 MB RAM in the Aria vs. 256 in the Curve 3G. Aria has like ~350 MB App Space Free, compared to ~120 in the Curve 3G, not to mention the App Store differences...

I mean, you can make issue with people comparing Droid X phones with Curve 3G or Storm 2 class devices, but keep in mind that mid-range Android phones have specs and capabilities similar or better hardware and a more capable OS than top-end Blackberries...

That being said Blackberries aren't sold as being hte most capable, greatest devices. They are sold on the merits of RIM's services. The issue with that is that most consumers don't and probably never will use RIM's services, so they don't care about that.

They can get their email pushed on virtually any phone and SMS/IM is instant enough for them. While the deficiencies of RIM's phones are worth the benefit of their services to business users, they're just outliners and showstoppers to most consumers.

And people still buy blackberry? OMG, I must educate them all and show them the error of their ways. Must.......never........stop

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Rickroller]

They can compare them to the newer BB's also, with the same result. I have a slow Torch. When the Iphone/Android users and I are looking up our fantasy sports stuff on Yahoo, I'm the only one waiting forever for the site to come up. I have to search slowly to allow the browser to catch up.

This was what made me pick up an Android. While the browsing was better than on my Storm..trying to set my line-ups in Fantasy Hockey on Yahoo was painful. Since that's a big part of my daily routine (viewing that site)..I thought I might as well if browsing was better with a faster processor and stuff (and it was).

[iN8ter]

And people still buy blackberry? OMG, I must educate them all and show them the error of their ways. Must.......never........stop

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

You need to actually read my posts. You're making yourself look exceptionally dumb right now...

Maybe it's too hard on that small screen of yours, but you shouldn't be making these types of comprehension fails unless you're under the age of ten, or so...

Also, people will always buy what they want. The market is about trends and momentum, not "but people are still buying them."

No one said RIM was going to fall off the face of the earth. I sure didn't, so you should throw the FUD out of consideration when trying to have a "dialog" with me on this forum - or whatever you call it...

[tmelon]

You need to actually read my posts. You're making yourself look exceptionally dumb right now...

Maybe it's too hard on that small screen of yours, but you shouldn't be making these types of comprehension fails unless you're under the age of ten, or so...

Also, people will always buy what they want. The market is about trends and momentum, not "but people are still buying them."

No one said RIM was going to fall off the face of the earth. I sure didn't, so you should throw the FUD out of consideration when trying to have a "dialog" with me on this forum - or whatever you call it...

RIM is going to fall off the face of the Earth. It's gonna happen sooner or later.

[_StephenBB81]

I wonder what kind of margins RIM is working on compared to other manufacturers. Their price to functionality ratio seems a bit too high when compared to other smartphone platforms (except Apple, all their crap is overpriced...).
.

RIM runs an operating margin of ~22%
Apple runs an operating margin of ~29%
Motorola Runs an operating margin of ~4%
Nokia Runs an operating margin of ~4%
HTC Runs an operating margin of ~15%

I believe the Mobile phone industry average is ~7%

[iN8ter]

RIM runs an operating margin of ~22%
Apple runs an operating margin of ~29%
Motorola Runs an operating margin of ~4%
Nokia Runs an operating margin of ~4%
HTC Runs an operating margin of ~15%

I believe the Mobile phone industry average is ~7%

That explains why their devices are so overpriced compared to competing products with the same specs and general build quality/capabilities.

In any case I just ordered a White Bold 9780 to replace the Curve 3G I ordered last week. I'll see how that goes...

[_StephenBB81]

That explains why their devices are so overpriced compared to competing products with the same specs and general build quality/capabilities.

In any case I just ordered a White Bold 9780 to replace the Curve 3G I ordered last week. I'll see how that goes...

Their consumer pricing is dictated by the Carrier not by RIM.

Consumer pricing has little to do with RIM's operating margin.

[buwee]

my storm 2 and incredible are about the same battery wise also on typical days, but the incredible leaves the storm in the dust on what it can do

What did you expect? The Storm series phone was POS You are comparing probably the most crappy BB ever to the Incredible. Well I can say the same thing about my Captivate...My Torch leaves my Captivate in the dust on what it can do! It just happens that I bought a crappy Android phone although I can't say many good things about the Motorola Milestone that I had either - It was imo also a pos.

[howarmat]

What did you expect? The Storm series phone was POS You are comparing probably the most crappy BB ever to the Incredible. Well I can say the same thing about my Captivate...My Torch leaves my Captivate in the dust on what it can do! It just happens that I bought a crappy Android phone although I can't say many good things about the Motorola Milestone that I had either - It was imo also a pos.

the storm 2 is suppose to compare to other touch screens out there. It sells for the same price as the incredible. Shouldnt it be as good and provide me a about the same quality experience? It would make sense to compare an all touch RIM phone to an all touch android phone for battery life also correct? Instead people want to brag about how there phone with a screen 1/3 the size and a processor that is about 1/3 less powerful gets better battery!

i actually like my storm 2 and its the 2 best phone i have ever had personally.

[buwee]

the storm 2 is suppose to compare to other touch screens out there. It sells for the same price as the incredible. Shouldnt it be as good and provide me a about the same quality experience? It would make sense to compare an all touch RIM phone to an all touch android phone for battery life also correct? Instead people want to brag about how there phone with a screen 1/3 the size and a processor that is about 1/3 less powerful gets better battery!

i actually like my storm 2 and its the 2 best phone i have ever had personally.

I'm a sucker for new devices and got sucked in to the original 9530 and if that weren't bad enough I then got sucked in to the 9550 and imo was the worse BB's that I have ever used. The battery life on both of those phones were not very good at all when compared to my current Torch. I am not saying the Torch is the end all be all because it could use some improvements as well but at the moment it does work well for ME where as my Captivate which imo is also a lousy phone doesn't do what I need it to do very well at all.

[Daniel Ratcliffe]

Now I can see someone turning around and calling me a troll for this, but you might as well compare a Storm 2 to a Nokia 6300... Infact, the Nokia 6300 is probably better than the Storm 2. However compare a BlackBerry Pearl 3G 9105 to a Nokia 6300... Game over Nokia.

[debsbb]

Let's think about this logically for a second. He clearly got a bad unit. Do you really think that the Android platform would be experiencing the type of success that it currently is if this was normal? Talk one hour and the phone dies? Emails just disappear? Scratchy audio? Yet, they're selling these phones by the millions. If you believe that this is standard, well...

That's exactly what I was thinking as I was reading the list of issues. I would at least take the phone back and exchange it before jumping to the conclusion that it's Android ... and I don't even have an Android ... yet ...

[belfastdispatcher]

You need to actually read my posts. You're making yourself look exceptionally dumb right now...

Maybe it's too hard on that small screen of yours, but you shouldn't be making these types of comprehension fails unless you're under the age of ten, or so...

Also, people will always buy what they want. The market is about trends and momentum, not "but people are still buying them."

No one said RIM was going to fall off the face of the earth. I sure didn't, so you should throw the FUD out of consideration when trying to have a "dialog" with me on this forum - or whatever you call it...

Really? Everywhere you go on this forum somebody's predicting the fall of Rim, it's getting very annoying after a while.

You can quote specs all day long, it only makes them better on paper, in reality a blackberry makes more sense to a lot of people.
Small screen you say? Not everybody wants a huge slab of glass in their pockets all the time, or maybe you carry a manbag around lol.

Why does everything has to be Android vs Blackberry? Anyway, you need to go back and learn more about blackberry functionality then compare, there's a lot hidden behind the surface, things that make you very fast.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[tkao2025]

Why does everything has to be Android vs Blackberry?

LOL...it use to be iPhone vs everyone....now it seems like Android is the 800lb gorilla in the room.

[iN8ter]

Their consumer pricing is dictated by the Carrier not by RIM.

Consumer pricing has little to do with RIM's operating margin.

RIM sets the MAP or MSRP.

When you buy a phone from Best Buy or something they aren't just pulling pricing out of thin air.

RIM sets the prices high so they can have higher margins and make more money off of them. Apple does the same thing with their computers and phones...

[iN8ter]

Really? Everywhere you go on this forum somebody's predicting the fall of Rim, it's getting very annoying after a while.

You can quote specs all day long, it only makes them better on paper, in reality a blackberry makes more sense to a lot of people.
Small screen you say? Not everybody wants a huge slab of glass in their pockets all the time, or maybe you carry a manbag around lol.

Why does everything has to be Android vs Blackberry? Anyway, you need to go back and learn more about blackberry functionality then compare, there's a lot hidden behind the surface, things that make you very fast.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

Don't care what everyone is doing. I only care that you didn't read my post and just copy-pasted a fanboy response under it.

The specs matter. An Aria has better specs than a bold, but it cheaper with a more capable OS on board.

Plus, I had an Aria from AT&T, so what I say isn't just what I read on the box or some web site. The phone is exceptionally good, especially considering it's only a mid-range device. It was my first Android phone (and my first full touchscreen phone - I was a QWERTY phone user before then).

I'm not gonna lie, when I was moving to smartphones from feature/dumb phones I wanted a BB so bad. I literally spent a month trolling blackberry.com just staring at them. I still want one. I don't know why, I just do. They just seem hip in some sort of way. So I'm getting one. I can afford two phones, and if I really don't like it I have 2 weeks more than the average consumer to send it back, anyways... As long as I can find ~5 people to BBM on a regular basis, I can give myself an excuse to keep it forever :P

And I want a Playbook as well, and those aren't really useful [IMO] unless you have a Blackberry to pair them with...

I may have strong opinions, but I'm no fanboi or lemming :smile:

[_StephenBB81]

RIM sets the MAP or MSRP.

When you buy a phone from Best Buy or something they aren't just pulling pricing out of thin air.

RIM sets the prices high so they can have higher margins and make more money off of them. Apple does the same thing with their computers and phones...

RIM has no MAP's

RIM sets MSRP's for full retail pricing yes, and those retail price options are to put the margins in the channel for everyone,

BUT it is illegal for a manufacturer to set pricing, in Both Canada and the USA, I believe the US is even more strict than Canada in that respect.

Apple Sells direct to the consumers, so they are able to control their pricing structure better than those like RIM who do not, My company has 2 product lines, 1 that is completely sold through distribution another that has online only direct consumer access and access through multiple distribution networks, it is much easier for us to control average pricing for the product we sell online vs the Distribution only, on the Distribution only side of things, across the country some products can differ in retail pricing by as much as 150%, on the other side we have a variance of only 11%

The fact that you often can get RIM devices for extremely low on contract prices shows the lack of MAP.

[belfastdispatcher]

RIM has no MAP's

RIM sets MSRP's for full retail pricing yes, and those retail price options are to put the margins in the channel for everyone,

BUT it is illegal for a manufacturer to set pricing, in Both Canada and the USA, I believe the US is even more strict than Canada in that respect.

Apple Sells direct to the consumers, so they are able to control their pricing structure better than those like RIM who do not, My company has 2 product lines, 1 that is completely sold through distribution another that has online only direct consumer access and access through multiple distribution networks, it is much easier for us to control average pricing for the product we sell online vs the Distribution only, on the Distribution only side of things, across the country some products can differ in retail pricing by as much as 150%, on the other side we have a variance of only 11%

The fact that you often can get RIM devices for extremely low on contract prices shows the lack of MAP.

All my blackberrys have been free with a contract.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Jaguarr40]

RIM has no MAP's

RIM sets MSRP's for full retail pricing yes, and those retail price options are to put the margins in the channel for everyone,

BUT it is illegal for a manufacturer to set pricing, in Both Canada and the USA, I believe the US is even more strict than Canada in that respect.

Apple Sells direct to the consumers, so they are able to control their pricing structure better than those like RIM who do not, My company has 2 product lines, 1 that is completely sold through distribution another that has online only direct consumer access and access through multiple distribution networks, it is much easier for us to control average pricing for the product we sell online vs the Distribution only, on the Distribution only side of things, across the country some products can differ in retail pricing by as much as 150%, on the other side we have a variance of only 11%

The fact that you often can get RIM devices for extremely low on contract prices shows the lack of MAP.

+1
YES I do agree with this and often going into a store i.e. VZW and talk to a rep to buy or upgrade a phone they will tell you that they make no money or little to nothing on what phone you buy as opposed to their commission coming from selling you a plan and addons to that plan. Good post here.

RIM sets the MAP or MSRP.

When you buy a phone from Best Buy or something they aren't just pulling pricing out of thin air.

RIM sets the prices high so they can have higher margins and make more money off of them. Apple does the same thing with their computers and phones...

As I stated about I believe you are incorrect in saying that RIM sets the consumer price, They only set a suggested retain buy ultimatly it is up to the carrier on subsiding the end price due to rebates... BOGO or any other price structure they may have on a particular device.