04-06-14 07:42 PM
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  1. Omnitech's Avatar
    It can be done, Threema for example gives several stages of delivery notification: upload to the server pending, delivered to the server, downloaded to the target device and read on the target device. This works on iOS as well as Android and the delivery seems to be able to occur even when the application has been closed for hours. iMessage can, of course, return read receipts if you turn the feature on ("delivered" and "read" are just like "D" and "R" in BBM).

    The "kill the background app" that iOS 6 has was really more for killing misbehaving apps and that was after 10 minutes, not after 15. I believe it was possible to keep worker threads running much longer than 10 minutes but care must be taken when writing them to notify the operating system that they are not deadlocked and are still producing useful work. I looked through the API once before but don't remember the details.

    The important thing to note is that the notification system in iOS is NOT a function of the app, it's a function of the operating system. The server pushes a notification down to the phone which can then display it, so all of those apps (really, iOS rather than the apps) will display some kind of "message received" notification no matter how long the phone has been asleep.

    So from the user point of view, those messengers all act about the same. Threema won't display a preview of incoming messages because the app itself is not running and thus the cryptographic engine is not available to decrypt the incoming push message - the server only pushes "you have a new message" because of that. Messengers on iOS that can display a preview of the message must have had the messages decrypted by the server before they were even transmitted.

    I'll have to take the time to walk through and demonstrate the various messenger apps on video sometime - but really they all act about the same. Yes, on whatsapp the second checkmark simply means that the message was delivered to the target device, not actually viewed, but Kik acts exactly like BBM, even on iOS, in that I get S, D and R icons for sent, delivered and read.

    Functionally it's approximately an even playing field. The problem is in the sporadic performance of BBM on iOS. None of the other messengers seem to have the random delays in actually retrieving an incoming message that BBM has and it is so infrequent for me that I've not been able to catch it on video. It will go weeks without happening and then happen a couple times in a day.

    This continues to be by far the most useful data I have seen on all the threads about BBMX reliability and comparisons with other competitors.

    So it is indeed looking like BBM needs some improvements. If BBMX is using the same network and Blackberry users aren't having these problems, then that certainly points the finger at the apps themselves.

    I suppose it's possible that BBM suffers from being originally designed as BlackBerry-specific and perhaps has some architectural aspects that assumes the availability of certain BlackBerry-centric support functionality that don't exist on other platforms. But even if this is true, I can't imagine it would be an impossible issue to address.

    Hopefully the Android beta version that came out recently has been improved in that respect.
    01-07-14 12:56 AM
  2. southlander's Avatar
    Would love to follow-up on this and see if it's true for most.

    Weird that BBM would not have enabled that by default, or at least advised the user upon install to consider changing it.
    The iPhone BBM installer is bizarre. I installed it on my mom's iPhone. The default configuration is so that if the phone has its screen locked you hear nothing. If you unlock the screen the message then "arrives" -- the spark shows and you hear the notification.

    So then once I went in and altered the notification setup for the BBM app I got it working just fine. Just like on a BlackBerry. I can even kill the app using the iPhone taskmgr and it still works fine. (something I read on here somewhere would stop the notifications).

    So I am not sure if BlackBerry just doesn't know how to set the app up correctly on the install, or its buggy, or they chose a dumb config.?

    But once you tweak it it works absolutely great.

    Sad. Leads me to believe there are iPhone users that don't know how to tweak the notifications properly. So they may just be dumping BBM.

    Z10STL100-4/10.2.1.1925
    01-07-14 02:17 AM
  3. Omnitech's Avatar
    The iPhone BBM installer is bizarre. I installed it on my mom's iPhone. The default configuration is so that if the phone has its screen locked you hear nothing. If you unlock the screen the message then "arrives" -- the spark shows and you hear the notification.

    So then once I went in and altered the notification setup for the BBM app I got it working just fine. Just like on a BlackBerry. I can even kill the app using the iPhone taskmgr and it still works fine. (something I read on here somewhere would stop the notifications).

    So I am not sure if BlackBerry just doesn't know how to set the app up correctly on the install, or its buggy, or they chose a dumb config.?

    But once you tweak it it works absolutely great.

    Sad. Leads me to believe there are iPhone users that don't know how to tweak the notifications properly. So they may just be dumping BBM.

    That's interesting, but if in fact that is the only issue causing everyone's reliability problems (and sorry to say, I have my doubts about that), then I would fault BLACKBERRY for not informing users of that extremely critical setting with a large modal dialogue box as soon as they install the app or attempt to use it. ("ATTENTION: YOU MUST CHANGE SETTING X TO THIS, OR YOU WON'T BE NOTIFIED OF NEW MESSAGES AFTER YOU EXIT THE APP!!")

    Those kinds of failings are all over the place in this platform. Users wandering around like listless zombies not knowing the most basic things they should know to use the platform effectively.

    Very poor communication with users.
    01-07-14 03:25 AM
  4. iN8ter's Avatar
    This continues to be by far the most useful data I have seen on all the threads about BBMX reliability and comparisons with other competitors.

    So it is indeed looking like BBM needs some improvements. If BBMX is using the same network and Blackberry users aren't having these problems, then that certainly points the finger at the apps themselves.

    I suppose it's possible that BBM suffers from being originally designed as BlackBerry-specific and perhaps has some architectural aspects that assumes the availability of certain BlackBerry-centric support functionality that don't exist on other platforms. But even if this is true, I can't imagine it would be an impossible issue to address.

    Hopefully the Android beta version that came out recently has been improved in that respect.
    You (maybe) are assuming (for the sake of simllicity) that BB and iOS/Android users are being served by the same servers which is almost assuredly not the case since BB to BB users did not experience any of the issues "we" experienced. That's a great thing for their own platform's users. With that assumption, an OS or application bug are reasonable assumptions. I actually think the app is functionally well done (even if not the most efficient code)

    My guess is they have it partitioned, smartly.

    I don't think its an app issue to the level you may think, because when the service got wonky, it was almost always messages getting stuck at the server. Sometimes they would fail to send, but there were no other issues indicating a connection issue and couples with the delivery issues one could logically conclude where the bottleneck is. The messages would send and never get delivered. They were in limbobfor hours and then suddenly the server would deliver them, even if your phone was in airplane mode when that happened. This means the app was working correctly, because no connection was available for it to "resend" the message.

    Reliability seems to have improved a bit, but service performance for cross platform users is still not up to par - certainly not in the realm of a BlackBerry (where an unreliable BBM was often only a symptom before an outage).

    I tested these issues in so many ways when in bad them. The app simply wasn't the issue. Messages always got to the server. The issue was at the service end. Only app related performance issue I had was the ram usage, specifically for people I know with low RAM devices.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
    01-07-14 05:05 AM
  5. gnirkatto's Avatar
    The iPhone BBM installer is bizarre. I installed it on my mom's iPhone. The default configuration is so that if the phone has its screen locked you hear nothing. If you unlock the screen the message then "arrives" -- the spark shows and you hear the notification.

    So then once I went in and altered the notification setup for the BBM app I got it working just fine. Just like on a BlackBerry. I can even kill the app using the iPhone taskmgr and it still works fine. (something I read on here somewhere would stop the notifications).

    So I am not sure if BlackBerry just doesn't know how to set the app up correctly on the install, or its buggy, or they chose a dumb config.?

    But once you tweak it it works absolutely great.

    Sad. Leads me to believe there are iPhone users that don't know how to tweak the notifications properly. So they may just be dumping BBM.

    Z10STL100-4/10.2.1.1925
    This might well be the case.
    I tried to play with settings on some of the iphones of some of my friends that I convinced to install BBM.
    The issue is, I have no idea how to properly set this up, as I never was an iOS user. And they don't like the idea of giving me their iphones to play around until I find what needs to be found.
    Telling the iOS users to dig into setting themselves is pointless. Almost everybody loses interest instantly. "Too complicated, didn't have to do that with Whatsapp" etc.are the most commonly used excuses.
    I don't know if during the BBM installation process it is technically possible to configure the system in a way to make all notifications show, but this needs to be improved urgently.
    01-07-14 10:34 AM
  6. southlander's Avatar
    This might well be the case.
    I tried to play with settings on some of the iphones of some of my friends that I convinced to install BBM.
    The issue is, I have no idea how to properly set this up, as I never was an iOS user. And they don't like the idea of giving me their iphones to play around until I find what needs to be found.
    Telling the iOS users to dig into setting themselves is pointless. Almost everybody loses interest instantly. "Too complicated, didn't have to do that with Whatsapp" etc.are the most commonly used excuses.
    I don't know if during the BBM installation process it is technically possible to configure the system in a way to make all notifications show, but this needs to be improved urgently.
    The iPhone notification system is a little different and takes a bit of fiddling to "get". (like anything really). I just think based on some of the posts on here that there are a fair number of iPhone users that don't know how to tweak things. Not should they need to for BBM to work great on a default install.

    Based on the fact that the first iteration of the iPhone BBM app didn't even support the iOS7 keyboard and styling, even though iOS7 was officially released, my guess is BlackBerry has not put enough effort into the app.

    I will repeat. I installed the BBM iPhone app on my mother's new iPhone 5C. I got one prompt that was allow/deny and I chose allow. I BBM'ed her iPhone and although the messages were arriving instantly, there were no audible notifications if the screen was locked. I had to tweak the notifications after which it works great.

    The specific thing I remember changing is something about the notification updating in the background or on the use of the app. The mail app on the iPhone seems to be set the same way by default. You have to change it as well. Or at least I did. Perhaps this is some default iOS app install setting that BlackBerry has not properly overrode?
    01-07-14 02:36 PM
  7. anon62607's Avatar
    The iPhone notification system is a little different and takes a bit of fiddling to "get". (like anything really). I just think based on some of the posts on here that there are a fair number of iPhone users that don't know how to tweak things. Not should they need to for BBM to work great on a default install.

    Based on the fact that the first iteration of the iPhone BBM app didn't even support the iOS7 keyboard and styling, even though iOS7 was officially released, my guess is BlackBerry has not put enough effort into the app.

    I will repeat. I installed the BBM iPhone app on my mother's new iPhone 5C. I got one prompt that was allow/deny and I chose allow. I BBM'ed her iPhone and although the messages were arriving instantly, there were no audible notifications if the screen was locked. I had to tweak the notifications after which it works great.

    The specific thing I remember changing is something about the notification updating in the background or on the use of the app. The mail app on the iPhone seems to be set the same way by default. You have to change it as well. Or at least I did. Perhaps this is some default iOS app install setting that BlackBerry has not properly overrode?
    Note that when you turn off notifications for facebook messenger, when you're in facebook messenger it prompts you to turn them back on - it might not hurt for BBM to do something like this:

    Why I don't use BBM: Reliability on BBMX.-photo-jan-07-11-42-41-am.png
    southlander likes this.
    01-07-14 02:44 PM
  8. CarGuy1368's Avatar
    Why use BBM when you can text?
    BBM is INSTANT Message. Like the moment you send a message the other person receives it right away!!! You don't want that!!! Who wants that fast crap!!!
    You want text messages! Where sometimes it takes a couple of minutes, hours or even never goes through! That's what you want! The unreliable stuff!!!
    BBM uses data! Like 1000 msgs is like 1MB!!!! That's toooo much! People usually have 1 gb (1024 mb)... you can't afford using 1 mb of your 1 gig.... that's too much!!!!
    Text message is where it's at!!!
    BBM uses pin. That's so lame!!! Scanning each others bar codes to add as a contact!
    People rather just type in actual numbers the old fashion way!
    I rather give a stranger my phone number so that he can track me down later in if ever he loses my number, but with pins.... pins don't disclose any personal things.... it's sooooo secure! No one wants security! Everyone like to get frauded once and a while!
    LOLLLLLLLLLLLL

    Posted via CB10
    My BBM hasn't been reliable all day. I'm receiving messages from my friend on her iPhone 5s, but my Q10 isn't sending anything back. All I get is a red box with the X in it. I'm on my official software from AT&T, BBM is up to date on both phones, and I tried restarting BBM and my phone.

    It is a legitament problem. Things like this should just work.

    Posted via the super amazing BlackBerry Q10
    01-10-14 01:53 PM
  9. BBUK14's Avatar
    Is there a possibility that the reason people notice the delays with BBM (i have with apple from my BlackBerry) is that BlackBerry has such an obvious R and D system? To be honest, I have single ticks sitting in WhatsApp for ages sometimes - very often, actually. The difference is that no one really has any idea what the ticks actually mean so it isn't obvious. Also, because at the moment the vast majority of apple and Android people use WhatsApp far more often, they don't get the issue of messages sitting around, not being noticed.

    What do you think?

    Posted via CB10
    Thesmartmale and chgaida like this.
    01-10-14 02:05 PM
  10. Thesmartmale's Avatar
    Is there a possibility that the reason people notice the delays with BBM (i have with apple from my BlackBerry) is that BlackBerry has such an obvious R and D system? To be honest, I have single ticks sitting in WhatsApp for ages sometimes - very often, actually. The difference is that no one really has any idea what the ticks actually mean so it isn't obvious. Also, because at the moment the vast majority of apple and Android people use WhatsApp far more often, they don't get the issue of messages sitting around, not being noticed.

    What do you think?

    Posted via CB10
    EXACTLY I totally agree!!!!! Whatsapp doesn't have D and R so no one knows if it's delivered or not and they don't even know how the tick system works so no pne is complaining from whatsapp on IOS.

    Posted via CB10
    01-10-14 04:38 PM
  11. sjsavva's Avatar
    Check this out...

    What are those check marks next to my messages?

    We are glad you asked. These checkmarks are actually very important since they are indicators that acknowledge the delivery of a message. Here is what they mean:

    One tick - message successfully delivered to the server.
    Two ticks - message successfully delivered to the phone of your chat partner. Note: this does not indicate that the message was read, just that it was delivered.
    Also note that in a group chat you will only see one check mark indicating that the message was successfully delivered to the server.

    If you only see a single check mark next to your message, there is likely nothing wrong with WhatsApp or your phone. There may be several reasons why your message is delivered to the server, but not to your chat partner:

    Their phone might be turned off or their phone's battery might be dead.
    They could be sleeping, especially if they live in a different time zone.
    They may not be connected to the internet (for example, if they are in an elevator, roaming or have no data credits).
    They might have seen the notification on the screen, but did not launch the app to acknowledge message receipt (very common in case of iPhone recipients).
    They might have blocked you.

    Savvas John Savva, Owner of Skill 7 Limited - www.skill7.org - BBM: 2670CCEA
    01-10-14 05:35 PM
  12. Thesmartmale's Avatar
    Check this out...

    What are those check marks next to my messages?

    We are glad you asked. These checkmarks are actually very important since they are indicators that acknowledge the delivery of a message. Here is what they mean:

    One tick - message successfully delivered to the server.
    Two ticks - message successfully delivered to the phone of your chat partner. Note: this does not indicate that the message was read, just that it was delivered.
    Also note that in a group chat you will only see one check mark indicating that the message was successfully delivered to the server.

    If you only see a single check mark next to your message, there is likely nothing wrong with WhatsApp or your phone. There may be several reasons why your message is delivered to the server, but not to your chat partner:

    Their phone might be turned off or their phone's battery might be dead.
    They could be sleeping, especially if they live in a different time zone.
    They may not be connected to the internet (for example, if they are in an elevator, roaming or have no data credits).
    They might have seen the notification on the screen, but did not launch the app to acknowledge message receipt (very common in case of iPhone recipients).
    They might have blocked you.

    Savvas John Savva, Owner of Skill 7 Limited - www.skill7.org - BBM: 2670CCEA
    The second last point is what I'm talking about!!!!!! I'm glad you brought this up, so they have to open the app for the message to show delivery, so this is exactly what happens to BBM on IOS, it's a limitations from the OS, BlackBerry can do nothing about it.

    I don't think anyone should argue about BBM on IOS anymore.

    Posted via CB10
    01-10-14 09:01 PM
  13. sjsavva's Avatar
    That's correct ...but I have delivery issues, (D and R), from pin to pin too.

    Savvas John Savva, Owner of Skill 7 Limited - www.skill7.org - BBM: 2670CCEA
    01-11-14 03:14 AM
  14. Thesmartmale's Avatar
    That's correct ...but I have delivery issues, (D and R), from pin to pin too.

    Savvas John Savva, Owner of Skill 7 Limited - www.skill7.org - BBM: 2670CCEA
    What do you mean?

    Posted via CB10
    01-11-14 04:11 AM
  15. sjsavva's Avatar
    I send a BBM message to someone who is with me at the time ...and either the 'D' doesn't appear or the read it, in front of me, and the 'R' doesn't show. I must stress that this does not happen all the time but, for my business' sake, I have stopped using BBM for work. I now use either groups on SMSByNow or WhatsApp, both of which work flawlessly.

    Savvas John Savva, Owner of Skill 7 Limited - www.skill7.org - BBM: 2670CCEA
    01-11-14 11:40 AM
  16. Bluline79's Avatar
    I feel the OP on this as well. 90% of my friends and family that have iPhone have a terrible time with it as far as receiving messages. They are all former BBM users and were ecstatic about the cross platform, but the delays are horrendous. My friend on Android devices do not have any where near the issues iOS users are having. BlackBerry needs to get this resolved ASAP.

    Posted via CB10
    01-11-14 01:59 PM
  17. Thesmartmale's Avatar
    I feel the OP on this as well. 90% of my friends and family that have iPhone have a terrible time with it as far as receiving messages. They are all former BBM users and were ecstatic about the cross platform, but the delays are horrendous. My friend on Android devices do not have any where near the issues iOS users are having. BlackBerry needs to get this resolved ASAP.

    Posted via CB10
    If you read my post, BlackBerry can do nothing about this because it's an OS limitation unless your friends and family are never receiving messages, that's another story, try to sit next to one of them and try it, ignore the fact that you will only get a tick (unless BBM is open on the IOS device ).

    Posted via CB10
    01-11-14 07:08 PM
  18. NoAhB0Dy's Avatar
    For iOS you *must* enable push notifications and ensure in the notification centre that the badge icon and banner stuff is enabled. Once notifications are properly enabled the recipient will know there's a new message whether or not the sender gets a check or a D. The D will happen if BBM for iOS is open or only recently closed (ie, not in suspend mode).

    I reviewed this with a few ppl that I only got a check for when sending and it turned out they had no notifications enabled so they would only see my message if they opened BBM.

    HTH

    Posted via CB10 on my Zed10.
    southlander likes this.
    01-11-14 11:54 PM
  19. Thesmartmale's Avatar
    For iOS you *must* enable push notifications and ensure in the notification centre that the badge icon and banner stuff is enabled. Once notifications are properly enabled the recipient will know there's a new message whether or not the sender gets a check or a D. The D will happen if BBM for iOS is open or only recently closed (ie, not in suspend mode).

    I reviewed this with a few ppl that I only got a check for when sending and it turned out they had no notifications enabled so they would only see my message if they opened BBM.

    HTH

    Posted via CB10 on my Zed10.
    ^this, exactly, and I would like to add that its not BlackBerrys fault that IOS puts apps into suspend mode.

    Posted via CB10
    01-12-14 01:37 AM
  20. BBUK14's Avatar
    I've spent some time using WhatsApp this weekend, paying attention to the delivery ticks. To the BBM haters, look, WhatsApp has the same delays to users. It's just that the ticks are less noticeable, and people take one tick to be the equivalent of a D in BBM, which is not the case.

    I found WhatsApp to be far less effective in sending or confirming messages. BBM is clearly faster. The problem with BBMx at this point is that the vast majority of apple and Android users only have a couple BBMx contacts, and so they rarely check their app in comparison to how often they check WhatsApp. This is why it seems that BBM messages get lost or aren't seen. This issue will go away once more people engage with BBM predominantly.

    Obviously BBM is fastest from BlackBerry to BlackBerry, but as BBMx, it is generally working well, and is being unfairly criticised for inefficiencies in the Apple abs Android OS.

    Posted via CB10
    01-13-14 04:47 AM
  21. Thesmartmale's Avatar
    I've spent some time using WhatsApp this weekend, paying attention to the delivery ticks. To the BBM haters, look, WhatsApp has the same delays to users. It's just that the ticks are less noticeable, and people take one tick to be the equivalent of a D in BBM, which is not the case.

    I found WhatsApp to be far less effective in sending or confirming messages. BBM is clearly faster. The problem with BBMx at this point is that the vast majority of apple and Android users only have a couple BBMx contacts, and so they rarely check their app in comparison to how often they check WhatsApp. This is why it seems that BBM messages get lost or aren't seen. This issue will go away once more people engage with BBM predominantly.

    Obviously BBM is fastest from BlackBerry to BlackBerry, but as BBMx, it is generally working well, and is being unfairly criticised for inefficiencies in the Apple abs Android OS.

    Posted via CB10
    Finally someone who understands what I was saying for a lot of time now.

    Posted via CB10
    01-13-14 06:10 AM
  22. BBUK14's Avatar
    Finally someone who understands what I was saying for a lot of time now.

    Posted via CB10
    I do try haha

    Posted via CB10
    01-13-14 07:47 AM
  23. NoAhB0Dy's Avatar
    Sorry I was late to the show. I've done my own similar investigations and come up with the same conclusions. I stumbled upon a post about whatsapp regarding their check marks as well and how they are very unreliable and how people really misunderstand what they mean.

    My son has BBM for Android and it works flawless. The iOS users that I communicate with on BBM work flawless too now that they have configured their notifications properly.

    One thing to note...if iOS user has BBM closed completely and their notifications setup properly, when I send a message I get the check box only but they *do* get the banner notification and badge counter as expected but I do not get my D until they open the app.

    Posted via CB10 on my Zed10.
    01-13-14 09:18 AM
  24. BBUK14's Avatar
    I send a BBM message to someone who is with me at the time ...and either the 'D' doesn't appear or the read it, in front of me, and the 'R' doesn't show. I must stress that this does not happen all the time but, for my business' sake, I have stopped using BBM for work. I now use either groups on SMSByNow or WhatsApp, both of which work flawlessly.

    Savvas John Savva, Owner of Skill 7 Limited - www.skill7.org - BBM: 2670CCEA
    WhatsApp works flawlessly for your business? I'm sorry, but I can't believe that. WhatsApp doesn't even have the D and R that you are complaining about with BBM. How could you leave BBM because apparently the D and R receipts aren't coming through on time, and then switch to an app that doesn't even have confirmation at all??

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by BBUK14; 01-13-14 at 12:00 PM.
    01-13-14 10:40 AM
  25. BBUK14's Avatar
    Sorry, that was mean. I just think you're way out there with that claim.

    Posted via CB10
    01-13-14 10:47 AM
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