09-28-14 04:10 AM
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  1. Undbiter65's Avatar
    I will say I've also been having issues with messages being delivered late. Don't know if the users have their bbm apps closed or if they just don't get the messages until hours later bit I hope this is a issue BlackBerry fixes soon. Defeats the purpose of having people on BBM when they don't reply for hours because they didn't get the message

    I downloaded the BBM Channels update today to see if it will fix the issue so we'll see how it goes.

    Posted via CB10
    Tell us how it goes. I haven't gotten to it myself yet.

    "If you can't soar with the eagles then don't fly with the flock!" (BBM#18)
    Rello likes this.
    10-31-13 12:58 AM
  2. ukmight's Avatar
    There are two issues here.

    One being that the messages are delivered late. This is mostly due to the fact that the apps are kept closed on the non-bb devices. On The iOS devices, the app pushes through push notifications for the messages being received even if the app is closed. However, you will not receive the D or the R until the iOS user opens the BBM App. Wonder how BlackBerry is going to have this resolved. The delivery is much better to Android users if they do not adjust the settings to disable the "BBM Connected Icon". Disabling this, doesn't keep the app running and then you may not receive the D and R reliably.


    The second issue is that of hits and misses for messages being delivered, that is some messages are delivered while others disappear. This is a result of incompatibility between the apps for BlackBerry and non-BB devices. It started during the BBMX launch in September, where messages from Beta Channels were not being delivered to iOS or Androids. In the successful launch, I have noticed that while fixing the issue for Channels, the issue has crept into the stock BBM app. The good thing is that Channels is the future implementation for BBM and hence we can safely assume that BlackBerry shall be able to easily fix this issue whenever they update the BBM app.


    Posted via CB10
    xiaohuaxing and Thesmartmale like this.
    10-31-13 01:21 AM
  3. danielrivers's Avatar
    I had one contact on iPhone who never received my messaged after the first few. Installed the new channels bbm beta and first message straight to D, suggests it's an issue with the old channel beta or old BlackBerry BBM overall? Unsure but can now message this contact.

    Posted via CB10
    drewread and ukmight like this.
    10-31-13 03:42 AM
  4. Omnitech's Avatar
    One is Gmail for my corporate email (we pay), and the other is Yahoo Plus (or whatever they call it - I pay). Both have push support. Unless I'm wrong and BB doesn't support Push on Yahoo and Gmail...
    There is no such thing as push Yahoo mail on a BB10 native email client. Yahoo uses a proprietary system for push and neither Android nor Windows Phone support it natively either. BlackBerry supported it on legacy OS via a BIS plugin. The only smartphone platform that does natively support Yahoo push email today is iOS.

    BB10: The tl;dr on email retrieval and syncing


    ...which I guess wouldn't be a surprise, considering BlackBerry's dismal failure in making BB10 a functioning work device.

    But I think they're Push. It's just poorly executed.

    And of course you have to make a bunch of hyperbolic jabs while you're at it. Impartial observer you definitely are not.



    Yahoo! Plus I think uses IMAP. I'm not sure if they have IDLE

    Yahoo's IMAP servers do not support IDLE. They use a proprietary UDP-based protocol for PUSH notifications. Only Apple supports it. (And possibly legacy BBOS, but that might use a previous generation Yahoo push technology, ie using the SMS channel as an out-of-band notification channel)



    IMAP IDLE does not hold a candle to EAS for pushing email, nor does CardDAV and CalDAV hold a candle to it for pushing Contacts and Calendar data.

    Agreed on that point.



    Google uses their own proprietary protocol, and so does app, in lieu of IMAP because it's so bad at pushing email.

    Google supports standard IMAP (with IDLE), I use it on my own Z10s, and it pushes fine. They might well use something proprietary inside their in-house written apps, no different than any other proprietary email vendor apps in that regard.



    BlackBerry will not allow the messages to be routed through Apple's servers. I'm not sure how BlackBerry has achieved the push notifications on iOS devices.

    Developers can use Apple's proprietary push notification system without actually sending messages themselves through Apple's network. They have extensive documentation for developers on their push API and how to use it.

    Local and Push Notification Programming Guide - Apple Push Notification Service



    I just did a test with a colleague with an iPhone; he had the app closed while I sent a message to him. He received a toast notification on screen and the BBM icon was displaying the number 1; the whole time all I saw was a checkmark in my BB10 BBM app. As soon as he tapped on the BBM icon, my checkmark changed to a "D", and then "R". He indicated that iOS does not allow third party apps to run constantly active in the background and it was his opinion that this is the correct implementation for iOS. Since our BlackBerry experience is one of a constantly running app, here is where I believe the confusion lies.

    Consider this: BlackBerry does not have any special instrumentation or way to monitor traffic within Apple's Push Notification Service. ("APNS") Therefore (and if what another person pointed-out here earlier is correct, that APNS is indeed "best effort" and not "guaranteed delivery") what that means is that a messaging app developer like BlackBerry has no way to verify delivery of either an APNS notification or their own messages until their own app receives and confirms it.

    In other words - they would be wise to use APNS for its realtime aspect and its power-saving aspect to use for delivering notifications on the iOS device side, but using APNS DOES NOT provide a reliable way to confirm delivery back to the sender, so both "delivery confirmation" and "read confirmation" must be performed by the app itself.

    That would explain why the sender might never see a "D" flag on a sent message until the app was actually opened. Of course they won't see an "R" flag if the app is not opened, because that is the only way the service can verify viewing of a message. (Perhaps Apple has a way for developers to confirm viewing of APNS notifications on the device side, but I rather doubt it.)
    ukmight, grover5, ital1 and 2 others like this.
    10-31-13 04:18 AM
  5. Omnitech's Avatar
    I think what people fail to understand is that, just cos you're not experiencing a problem, right at this exact moment, doesn't mean others aren't having problems.

    And the corollary to that is "Just because you're having a problem right now, doesn't mean the entire world is having problems."

    Simple fact: people in "advocacy/bashing threads" are participating primarily because they like to argue.

    Simple fact: most laypeople jump to ridiculous conclusions based on a tiny anecdotal sample of data. Scientists they are NOT.

    What I see here so far is basically: "Some people have issues, other people don't have issues".

    This is sort of like starting a thread to say: "Some people's cars broke down today, across the world." But conveniently failing to simultaneously proclaim: "MOST people's cars across the world today, did NOT break down."



    Some of the posts in this thread are laughable. Anytime someone posts that they are having reliability issues, a bunch of fanboys pop on to say, "all is well for me!" and then put their heads back in the sand. It would be funny were it not so sad.

    The saddest part is how you are blind to the fact that their anecdotal evidence of good performance is no less valid than your anecdotal evidence of poor performance. Then you have the audacity to call them "fanboys".

    With that, you deserve all the criticism from "fanboys" that you are getting.

    It is actually possible that SOME people have good results, and SOME people have not so good results. And sometimes the reverse. And sometimes it changes again. Stop looking at the world in a boolean fashion.


    If a large number of people are experiencing a certain problem, it is irrelevant that some of you are not. It adds nothing to the discussion.

    Either you are blatantly trolling there, or just unclear on the concept.

    OF COURSE it's important to know if other people do not experience the problem, it means that the issue IS NOT UNIVERSAL.

    That is, if you actually value the scientific method. Perhaps you prefer mysticism or emotionalism instead.


    BlackBerry's software is garbage, even once officially released. I'd have to be out of my mind to trust my device to an unreleased version. I can't even trust what they do release.

    Once again, your consistent and predictable bashing of the company at every turn, and accusing anyone who doesn't have the same experience as you of being "fanboys", only further undermines your credibility in this discussion.
    10-31-13 04:24 AM
  6. Omnitech's Avatar
    You need a Google+ Identity to leave feedback on Play Store. I don't email developers because it defeats the purpose. Feed back that can help other users should be put in a public place - like appended to the description/change log, a blog post at BBM's official blog, etc.

    Unfortunately what would really help the users, if you have actually discovered a legitimate bug that the vendor has not yet discovered themselves, is to inform the vendor about it.

    Reminds me of the 2-bit "security researchers" (cough cough "hackers") who are more interested in their 15-minutes of fame for publicly announcing a zero-day exploit, than they are in responsibly disclosing it to the vendor in a timely manner so the vendor can patch it before it becomes a widespread security debacle.

    The motivation is similiar.


    Telling someone to install leak or unreleased software on their phone is like telling someone to side load apps or root their android device just to make a specific service work, when everything else works fine...

    Actually if there is no actual solution at hand, and the vendor is already aware of the problem, yet lots of people are still suffering the consequences of the problem, I would think that reasonable people would be interested in whatever solution might help them, regardless how "correct" or "official" or "clean" or "nice" the solution is.

    Because when people who are truly suffering from such problems but who REFUSE to even CONSIDER trying something that might help them, they come across as people who are more interested in griping than solving problems for themselves.

    Oh, perish the thought that we would have people like that around here!
    10-31-13 04:28 AM
  7. bobauckland's Avatar
    Wow, finally someone tries the beta app, it doesn't fix the problems, usual crew say oh well, it works for loads of other people anyway.

    The sheer lack of knowledge in here is incredible. And the insults that keep being thrown around by the usual rose tinted crew.

    I'm out of here before I snap and respond in kind. This thread speaks volumes for me on why bbm will really really struggle, the community for BlackBerry products have settled into a 'if it doesn't work for you, there's something wrong with you,Not BlackBerry ' mindset. It's pathetic.

    Posted via CB10
    10-31-13 04:31 AM
  8. GiantSchnauzer's Avatar
    I have a BlackBerry bold 9900 and a z30 and 2 BlackBerry ids, one for each. My wife's iPhone got the invitation from the 9900, for the z30 I'd I can't get it working. She has scanned my bar code and vice versa, still nothing. Go figure.

    Z30, and yes, it's a bit on the heavy side...
    10-31-13 04:36 AM
  9. Omnitech's Avatar
    I'm out of here before I snap and respond in kind.
    I recommend abandoning ship when the weight of supporters tilts away from your side.

    See you in the next advocacy thread.
    grover5 and H_O_Boomaye like this.
    10-31-13 04:40 AM
  10. Omnitech's Avatar
    I have a BlackBerry bold 9900 and a z30 and 2 BlackBerry ids, one for each. My wife's iPhone got the invitation from the 9900, for the z30 I'd I can't get it working. She has scanned my bar code and vice versa, still nothing. Go figure.

    Did you try having her send your Z30 an invitation from her iPhone?

    Manual PIN entry?
    10-31-13 04:41 AM
  11. ital1's Avatar
    There is no such thing as push Yahoo mail on a BB10 native email client. Yahoo uses a proprietary system for push and neither Android nor Windows Phone support it natively either. BlackBerry supported it on legacy OS via a BIS plugin. The only smartphone platform that does natively support Yahoo push email today is iOS.

    BB10: The tl;dr on email retrieval and syncing





    And of course you have to make a bunch of hyperbolic jabs while you're at it. Impartial observer you definitely are not.






    Yahoo's IMAP servers do not support IDLE. They use a proprietary UDP-based protocol for PUSH notifications. Only Apple supports it. (And possibly legacy BBOS, but that might use a previous generation Yahoo push technology, ie using the SMS channel as an out-of-band notification channel)






    Agreed on that point.






    Google supports standard IMAP (with IDLE), I use it on my own Z10s, and it pushes fine. They might well use something proprietary inside their in-house written apps, no different than any other proprietary email vendor apps in that regard.






    Developers can use Apple's proprietary push notification system without actually sending messages themselves through Apple's network. They have extensive documentation for developers on their push API and how to use it.

    Local and Push Notification Programming Guide - Apple Push Notification Service






    Consider this: BlackBerry does not have any special instrumentation or way to monitor traffic within Apple's Push Notification Service. ("APNS") Therefore (and if what another person pointed-out here earlier is correct, that APNS is indeed "best effort" and not "guaranteed delivery") what that means is that a messaging app developer like BlackBerry has no way to verify delivery of either an APNS notification or their own messages until their own app receives and confirms it.

    In other words - they would be wise to use APNS for its realtime aspect and its power-saving aspect to use for delivering notifications on the iOS device side, but using APNS DOES NOT provide a reliable way to confirm delivery back to the sender, so both "delivery confirmation" and "read confirmation" must be performed by the app itself.

    That would explain why the sender might never see a "D" flag on a sent message until the app was actually opened. Of course they won't see an "R" flag if the app is not opened, because that is the only way the service can verify viewing of a message. (Perhaps Apple has a way for developers to confirm viewing of APNS notifications on the device side, but I rather doubt it.)
    Great analysis; I made a small error in my recap. When I was testing with an iOS user, as soon as he received the on screen notification of my message, my check mark turned to a "D". The "D" turned to an "R" once he tapped on the BBM icon and the and selected the message.

    Posted via my Z10
    10-31-13 06:39 AM
  12. ukmight's Avatar
    Wow, finally someone tries the beta app, it doesn't fix the problems, usual crew say oh well, it works for loads of other people anyway.

    The sheer lack of knowledge in here is incredible. And the insults that keep being thrown around by the usual rose tinted crew.

    I'm out of here before I snap and respond in kind. This thread speaks volumes for me on why bbm will really really struggle, the community for BlackBerry products have settled into a 'if it doesn't work for you, there's something wrong with you,Not BlackBerry ' mindset. It's pathetic.

    Posted via CB10
    just because it di not work for you, does not mean it did not worked for anyone else. Most of the others who agreed to upgrade to Channels beta have their problem resolved in this thread. I would not deny that you do not have an issue, but generalising your issue and declaring it universal is insane. It is just not possible to troubleshoot your issues because of your unwillingness to accept help and eagerness to criticise the product.

    In using the beta BBM channels version and everything is normal with my ios and android friends.

    Posted via my awesome BlackBerry Z10

    BBM has been working great with both iOS and Android contacts. Just had 3 more add it this morning. Feedback from one of the recent adopters on an Android device: "That was a much smoother download this time." Tested messages to both platforms including multiperson chat. All working flawlessly. FYI I am on the BBM channels beta.

    Posted via CB10
    Not denying that it doesn't work for you but stop implying that it won't work for others since it did.
    The experience was horrible on bbmx and I had gone back to WhatsApp but since I have no friends using BB, I just gave BBM Channels a shot and there has not been a single instance when the messages missed a D or R.

    Posted via CB10
    I installed the channels couple days ago...... haven't had a problem since, so it worked for me at least for now.

    Posted via CB10

    I had one contact on iPhone who never received my messaged after the first few. Installed the new channels bbm beta and first message straight to D, suggests it's an issue with the old channel beta or old BlackBerry BBM overall? Unsure but can now message this contact.

    Posted via CB10
    10-31-13 07:06 AM
  13. berryvic's Avatar
    Hi everyone,
    It's Victoria Berry from the BBM team at BlackBerry. I wanted to let everyone know that we have investigated this and we have tweaked the system, which should alleviate many of the issues in the thread here.

    I also wanted to publicly thank Benjamin_NYC. Thanks to @Benjamin_NYC! He shared a bunch of info with our technical teams, and even got his contacts to share logs and more too. We really appreciate it and maybe his next thread will be a lot more positive! The engineers have said that he was excellent and a great help.

    Just so everyone knows, we monitor these threads, we listen and we react. Sometimes, like this time, it's quick and we reach out directly. Sometimes we log the issues and resolution will take a bit longer. But either way, we do NOT ignore our users or their feedback and we do not operate in a bubble. We are committed to making BBM your best private social network.

    I'm not a technical resource (shocker!), but I will continue to lurk and post when we have updates or if there is further info needed by the engineers.

    Have a good one
    10-31-13 01:36 PM
  14. iN8ter's Avatar
    The defenders were wrong. LoL.

    Thanks, Victoria.

    Sent from my Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 4
    10-31-13 01:38 PM
  15. Undbiter65's Avatar
    Used BBM this morning and worked flawlessly. Hope it stays that way. Thanks Victoria.

    "If you can't soar with the eagles then don't fly with the flock!" (BBM#18)
    10-31-13 01:45 PM
  16. xravishx's Avatar
    Thanx Victoria. In the beginning, my fiance and I had issues with messages being delayed. We're both using Note 3 phones and were both really glad to have BBM back into our lives. However, lately it's been near flawless. Awesome! I can't wait for more features to become available.
    10-31-13 02:22 PM
  17. adamlau's Avatar
    Wow. BBRY stepped into a thread. Now that is customer support. @Benji_NYC and crew: Very good.
    10-31-13 02:32 PM
  18. bobauckland's Avatar
    Hi everyone,
    It's Victoria Berry from the BBM team at BlackBerry. I wanted to let everyone know that we have investigated this and we have tweaked the system, which should alleviate many of the issues in the thread here.

    I also wanted to publicly thank Benjamin_NYC. Thanks to @Benjamin_NYC! He shared a bunch of info with our technical teams, and even got his contacts to share logs and more too. We really appreciate it and maybe his next thread will be a lot more positive! The engineers have said that he was excellent and a great help.

    Just so everyone knows, we monitor these threads, we listen and we react. Sometimes, like this time, it's quick and we reach out directly. Sometimes we log the issues and resolution will take a bit longer. But either way, we do NOT ignore our users or their feedback and we do not operate in a bubble. We are committed to making BBM your best private social network.

    I'm not a technical resource (shocker!), but I will continue to lurk and post when we have updates or if there is further info needed by the engineers.

    Have a good one
    Fantastic, thanks for your input, hope bbm becomes the most reliable bulletproof messenger around.

    And thanks to Benjamin as well, far better to try and make bbm better together than pretend problems don't exist and give out bad advice.

    Posted via CB10
    10-31-13 02:32 PM
  19. ital1's Avatar
    Thanks very much Victoria; even though it was working perfectly for me, it is great to hear that the issues some users were encountering are being addressed so quickly.

    Posted via my Z10
    10-31-13 02:34 PM
  20. Omnitech's Avatar
    The defenders were wrong. LoL.
    Assuming that the people you call "defenders" (and that the OP calls "fanboys") are simply the people who pointed out that not all users experienced the issue, they are no more "wrong" now than they were then.

    Sorry if that undermines your own need to be "right".

    It's great that some investigation and tweaks were done. Now I want to see if the OP is capable of abandoning his "BlackBerry never does anything right" line the next time he experiences a glitch of some kind.
    grover5 and xiaohuaxing like this.
    10-31-13 02:36 PM
  21. iN8ter's Avatar
    Assuming that the people you call "defenders" (and that the OP calls "fanboys") are simply the people who pointed out that not all users experienced the issue, they are no more "wrong" now than they were then.

    Sorry if that undermines your own need to be "right".

    It's great that some investigation and tweaks were done. Now I want to see if the OP is capable of abandoning his "BlackBerry never does anything right" line the next time he experiences a glitch of some kind.
    I already know we they were looking into it. This is why I stopped readily responding to the thread.

    They were wrong. This is not an assumption.

    I can't use BBM now cause the people I tried it with refuse to reinstall due to the issues we had with it. Nothing more I can do but move on from it...

    Sent from my Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 4
    10-31-13 02:38 PM
  22. Omnitech's Avatar
    Wow. BBRY stepped into a thread. Now that is customer support.
    I have noticed a very obvious change over the last month or so in that regard. Lots of things users have been asking for for a long time being addressed.

    I hope it's not too late to save their bacon.
    10-31-13 02:42 PM
  23. Omnitech's Avatar
    They were wrong. This is not an assumption.
    Yes, those people who never experienced any sort of delivery delays or any other sort of problem communicating with non BlackBerry devices over BBM must have just been imagining that.

    You're a real piece of work.
    Danny Ocean and xiaohuaxing like this.
    10-31-13 02:46 PM
  24. Undbiter65's Avatar
    I have noticed a very obvious change over the last month or so in that regard. Lots of things users have been asking for for a long time being addressed.

    I hope it's not too late to save their bacon.
    Yeah I'm impressed as well. Hopefully they keep it up.

    "If you can't soar with the eagles then don't fly with the flock!" (BBM#18)
    10-31-13 02:50 PM
  25. ukmight's Avatar
    The defenders were wrong. LoL.

    Thanks, Victoria.

    Sent from my Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 4
    Wonder who you are calling defenders. Everyone had acknowledged that there was an issue for some and only giving out possible solutions that could possibly have worked since it worked for a few.



    Posted via CB10
    10-31-13 02:58 PM
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