11-07-13 09:38 PM
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  1. lawguyman's Avatar
    So let's try it again:

    http://www.displaymate.com/Galaxy_S4_ShootOut_1.htm

    http://www.displaymate.com/Galaxy_Note3_ShootOut_1.htm

    http://www.displaymate.com/Smartphone_ShootOut_3.htm

    Quote from the last article:
    "From the above discussion, there are lots of good and technically sound reasons for moving up to Full HD in a 5 inch Smartphone display. People with reasonably good vision will be able to see and appreciate the higher resolution, additional sharpness and image detail that it provides."

    Open the links, read the info, and then either be enlighted, or stay ignorant.
    One component has also been mentioned a number of times:
    Why should I pay 700$ for a phone with a Dual-core CPU, last-gen GPU, bad camera, and a 720p display, when I can get the newest hardware for the same price or less?
    ^
    This is the case for the Z30 and therefore it's a very relevant question.
    It's not that 720p is bad, it's bad for the price the Z30 sells for.
    Current 5-inch flagships that have a price of 600-700$, have a 1080p display.
    Compared to the competition, 720p clearly is inferior.
    This is also proven by the links I provided.

    And to have a little outlook:
    BlackBerry has plans, with the O-series, to introduce a phone with a 1080p display.
    Will you guys dismiss it, and not buy it because it will use, what flagships use since the beginning of this year?

    The Nexus costs 300$ less, but offers twice the hardware...
    You can talk about its compromises all you want, but there is NO reason that the Z30 doesn't use a 1080p screen when it costs between 600-700$.
    It's silly and ridiculous to argue against that.

    And why should I tell you where I noticed pixels? You'll dismiss it anyway because it doesn't affirm your views.

    Posted via CB10
    You can cite to general articles talking generally but that is NOT what we are discussing here. We are talking about a specific screen here, the one on the Z30.

    We are also not talking about any past or future device. We are talking about the Z30.

    The best evidence of how good it is or isn't is the way the screen looks. So, I'll ask for the third time now, where did you "notice pixels?"

    I can take and post a screen shot so that we can all see what you claim you saw.


    Posted via CB10
    11-07-13 11:09 AM
  2. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    You can cite to general articles talking generally but that is NOT what we are discussing here. We are talking about a specific screen here, the one on the Z30.

    We are also not talking about any past or future device. We are talking about the Z30.

    The best evidence of how good it is or isn't is the way the screen looks. So, I'll ask for the third time now, where did you "notice pixels?"

    I can take and post a screen shot so that we can all see what you claim you saw.

    Posted via CB10
    The answer is pretty much everywhere.
    From text on different webpages, to 1080p video content and jagged icons.
    It is an overall blurrier experience than on a 5 inch screen with 1080p. I can even see it on pictures when you have blacks directly side by side with whites.

    You still don't do the mental link I tried to explain you before:
    A 1080p display will look better than a 720p one for things like contrast or colour reproduction as well, because the technological progress for display tech is now focused on 1080p ones.

    Screenshots aren't a good way to show what I mean.
    When making a screenshot, you don't take a picture of the individual sized pixels of the screen itself, but instead of what the device interprets that it should display.
    You would need to make pictures of the screen itself.

    Posted via CB10
    11-07-13 11:32 AM
  3. dejanh's Avatar
    Since I don't have a Z30 to photograph beside my Z10 and somebody here has asked me to produce some proof showing the issues with the Pentile Matrix display used on the Z30, I did the next best thing and grabbed a closeup shot from the Q10 that The Verge did a while back. It is done at a very good zoom level that clearly shows the "burn" effect around lettering that exists on these displays. On the Z30 this is very prominent due to the larger display and a substantially lower PPI. Even on the Q10 it is noticeable, and I know 'cause I have a Q10 as well. Note, you have to click on the image to see it in full size.
    http://cdn0.sbnation.com/entry_photo...super_wide.jpg
    When using thin font like some fonts on websites, etc. this significantly affect legibility of text as well, especially at default zoom levels. Again, higher PPI on the Q10 does a lot to alleviate this, but on the Z30 things are not good at all.
    Attached Thumbnails Questions about the Z30 display-blackberry-q10-hands-edit-15_verge_super_wide.jpg  
    11-07-13 12:07 PM
  4. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    Since I don't have a Z30 to photograph beside my Z10 and somebody here has asked me to produce some proof showing the issues with the Pentile Matrix display used on the Z30, I did the next best thing and grabbed a closeup shot from the Q10 that The Verge did a while back. It is done at a very good zoom level that clearly shows the "burn" effect around lettering that exists on these displays. On the Z30 this is very prominent due to the larger display and a substantially lower PPI.
    Q10 and Z30 don't have the same display type. Please check your facts.
    11-07-13 12:08 PM
  5. lawguyman's Avatar
    Z30 is not Pentile. It is S-Stripe. The same display is in a Galaxy 4 but at a lower resolution.

    Here is the other fact. If you have to zoom that far in to see an issue, is it really an issue? The only issues that anyone need concern themselves with are ones that you can see from a normal viewing distance.

    Posted via CB10
    vrud likes this.
    11-07-13 12:17 PM
  6. jrohland's Avatar
    What's silly is acting as if there is no trade off with adding resolution. Do I want a higher resolution screen? Of course! Do I want to pay more, get lower performance and have higher battery drain to get it? No. The current resolution is very comfortable. The battery life is very good. The display (and in fact overall) performance is great. Would I trade battery life and performance to get an image that would look basically the same unless I use strong magnifying glasses? No!

    Would everyone be happy to pay 15% more for the Z30 to get an unnoticeable screen image improvement?
    11-07-13 12:21 PM
  7. lawguyman's Avatar
    The answer is pretty much everywhere.
    From text on different webpages, to 1080p video content and jagged icons.
    It is an overall blurrier experience than on a 5 inch screen with 1080p. I can even see it on pictures when you have blacks directly side by side with whites.

    You still don't do the mental link I tried to explain you before:
    A 1080p display will look better than a 720p one for things like contrast or colour reproduction as well, because the technological progress for display tech is now focused on 1080p ones.

    Screenshots aren't a good way to show what I mean.
    When making a screenshot, you don't take a picture of the individual sized pixels of the screen itself, but instead of what the device interprets that it should display.
    You would need to make pictures of the screen itself.

    Posted via CB10
    It figures "everything" has pixel issues. Well I have. Nexus 5 right here too and, as I said, there are no issues when comparing.

    What you also don't get (and I've said this before) is that the Z30's screen is built on the same process as the GS4 but with a lower resolution. So, there are no other benefits. That is the problem that you have with speaking in general terms about general things. Focus on the Z30's screen.

    By the way, you now say "blurry" which, if you really knew about displays, is the opposite of "noticing pixels.". Which is it? Blurry or Noticeable Pixels?

    Posted via CB10
    11-07-13 12:21 PM
  8. dejanh's Avatar
    You guys are seriously going to make me buy a Z30 just so I can put it side by side with my Z10 and take a picture to show you the difference in text legibility. Pentile, S-Stripe, whatever, bottom line is that the screenshot above very much resembles (happier with this?) how the text looks like on the Z30 but is much worse on the Z30. You also don't have to zoom that far or really at all. You just have to look at the two side by side with the same content opened on both phones. Also, have you been listening to anything that I said? Did you miss the fact that I used two Z30s, both brand new out of the box, side by side with the Z10. The Z10 display is way better.

    I swear I am going to find time to take my professional DSLR with a macro lens to a shop just to ruin your entire parade. You cannot possibly claim that the display is better when it is not.

    What's silly is acting as if there is no trade off with adding resolution. Do I want a higher resolution screen? Of course! Do I want to pay more, get lower performance and have higher battery drain to get it? No. The current resolution is very comfortable. The battery life is very good. The display (and in fact overall) performance is great. Would I trade battery life and performance to get an image that would look basically the same unless I use strong magnifying glasses? No!

    Would everyone be happy to pay 15% more for the Z30 to get an unnoticeable screen image improvement?
    No, because the phone as-is is completely overpriced. It wants you to pay the big-boy prices but it can only play with the kids. Maybe having a good 1080p display would have justified its price point somewhat.

    Also, @lawguyman, I sent you a PM about the Nexus 5.
    11-07-13 12:25 PM
  9. lawguyman's Avatar
    You guys are seriously going to make me buy a Z30 just so I can put it side by side with my Z10 and take a picture to show you the difference in text legibility. Pentile, S-Stripe, whatever, bottom line is that the screenshot above very much resembles (happier with this?) how the text looks like on the Z30 but is much worse on the Z30. You also don't have to zoom that far or really at all. You just have to look at the two side by side with the same content opened on both phones. Also, have you been listening to anything that I said? Did you miss the fact that I used two Z30s, both brand new out of the box, side by side with the Z10. The Z10 display is way better.

    I swear I am going to find time to take my professional DSLR with a macro lens to a shop just to ruin your entire parade. You cannot possibly claim that the display is better when it is not.


    No, because the phone as-is is completely overpriced. It wants you to pay the big-boy prices but it can only play with the kids. Maybe having a good 1080p display would have justified its price point somewhat.

    Also, @lawguyman, I sent you a PM about the Nexus 5.
    If you really need a DSLR to see the difference you are proving my point.

    Posted via CB10
    11-07-13 12:47 PM
  10. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    It figures "everything" has pixel issues. Well I have. Nexus 5 right here too and, as I said, there are no issues when comparing.

    What you also don't get (and I've said this before) is that the Z30's screen is built on the same process as the GS4 but with a lower resolution. So, there are no other benefits. That is the problem that you have with speaking in general terms about general things. Focus on the Z30's screen.

    By the way, you now say "blurry" which, if you really knew about displays, is the opposite of "noticing pixels.". Which is it? Blurry or Noticeable Pixels?

    Posted via CB10
    I can see the difference in PPI between an LG G2 and a Z30. If you can't, what does that tell us?

    I use the term blurry, as opposed to sharp.
    This got nothing to do with seeing individual pixel, because I talk about the overall experience when looking at a webpage on a Z30 and a LG G2.
    It looks blurrier on the Z30 than on the G2.

    The individual pixel comment, was in relation to the difference of pixel size and resolution.
    It's easier to see individual pixels on a 720p screen than on a 1080p one.

    Edit:
    No, the Note 2 DOESN'T use a pentile matrix.
    That's WRONG.

    Would everyone be happy to pay 15% more for the Z30 to get an unnoticeable screen image improvement?
    Normally I rather like your posts, but this time you got it fundamentally wrong...

    I can buy phones today, with MUCH better specs and a 1080p display for a lot less money.
    It's only BlackBerry who demands this ridiculous price for specs from yesteryear.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 11-07-13 at 01:00 PM.
    11-07-13 12:48 PM
  11. lawguyman's Avatar
    I can see the difference in PPI between an LG G2 and a Z30. If you can't, what does that tell us?

    I use the term blurry, as opposed to sharp.
    This got nothing to do with seeing individual pixel, because I talk about the overall experience when looking at a webpage on a Z30 and a LG G2.
    It looks blurrier on the Z30 than on the G2.

    The individual pixel comment, was in relation to the difference of pixel size and resolution.
    It's easier to see individual pixels on a 720p screen than on a 1080p one.



    Normally I rather like your posts, but this time you got it fundamentally wrong...

    I can buy phones today, with MUCH better specs and a 1080p display for a lot less money.
    It's only BlackBerry who demands this ridiculous price for specs from yesteryear.

    Posted via CB10
    Sorry but now you're not making any sense. When do you see pixels and when is blurry?

    This has nothing to do with how much it costs, by the way. If it is too expensive, buy something else.

    The G2 is a nice phone with horrible software on it and volume buttons on the back for some reason. It has a nice display too. I think you are seeing that it is bright and like that about it because I know you are not seeing pixels on a 5" 720p display.





    Posted via CB10
    11-07-13 01:02 PM
  12. lawguyman's Avatar
    I can see the difference in PPI between an LG G2 and a Z30. If you can't, what does that tell us?

    I use the term blurry, as opposed to sharp.
    This got nothing to do with seeing individual pixel, because I talk about the overall experience when looking at a webpage on a Z30 and a LG G2.
    It looks blurrier on the Z30 than on the G2.

    The individual pixel comment, was in relation to the difference of pixel size and resolution.
    It's easier to see individual pixels on a 720p screen than on a 1080p one.

    Edit:
    No, the Note 2 DOESN'T use a pentile matrix.
    That's WRONG.



    Normally I rather like your posts, but this time you got it fundamentally wrong...

    I can buy phones today, with MUCH better specs and a 1080p display for a lot less money.
    It's only BlackBerry who demands this ridiculous price for specs from yesteryear.

    Posted via CB10
    Who said anything about a Note 2?

    Posted via CB10
    11-07-13 01:03 PM
  13. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Who said anything about a Note 2?

    Posted via CB10
    Wrong thread, my fault.
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 11-07-13 at 01:20 PM.
    11-07-13 01:08 PM
  14. dejanh's Avatar
    If you really need a DSLR to see the difference you are proving my point.

    Posted via CB10
    I don't...look at your own photo, Z30 beside Nexus 5...and this is despite the fact that you are taking the shot with the Nexus 5 factory plastic still on distorting the display...really, why would you do a comparison shot like that anyway.

    http://forums.crackberry.com/attachm...107_083128.jpg

    Look at the sharpness of the text on the Nexus 5 vs. that on the Z30. Notice how there is a "shadow" or a "haze" on the Z30...as though the text is just not in focus. This is exactly what happens on every one of these devices and exactly what I saw in store. I personally cannot stand it because I do a lot of reading. I feel like my eyes are bad, when they are not.

    Also, eye sees better than any DSLR, hence the existence of manual focus...just saying.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    11-07-13 01:09 PM
  15. lawguyman's Avatar
    I don't...look at your own photo, Z30 beside Nexus 5...and this is despite the fact that you are taking the shot with the Nexus 5 factory plastic still on distorting the display...really, why would you do a comparison shot like that anyway.

    http://forums.crackberry.com/attachm...107_083128.jpg

    Look at the sharpness of the text on the Nexus 5 vs. that on the Z30. Notice how there is a "shadow" or a "haze" on the Z30...as though the text is just not in focus. This is exactly what happens on every one of these devices and exactly what I saw in store. I personally cannot stand it because I do a lot of reading. I feel like my eyes are bad, when they are not.

    Also, eye sees better than any DSLR, hence the existence of manual focus...just saying.
    You're getting all that from that pic? Wow. Just Wow.

    Posted via CB10
    11-07-13 01:14 PM
  16. dejanh's Avatar
    You're getting all that from that pic? Wow. Just Wow.

    Posted via CB10
    Lol, I have good eyes for detail...what can I say...you can clearly see the edge of the Nexus 5 plastic at the top left corner of the device, and (what appears to be) an air bubble towards the top right. Despite the bad overall focus of the image the difference comes through. Not to mention that the Z30 display is overly red, another issue I noticed in store on both models I used. That is also apparent on your image. Granted the Nexus 5 looks a bit too blue there too, but the red tendency of the Z30 is very noticeable. I believe that even BlackBerry mentioned something about needing to fix the white point of the display in the future updates...don't quote me on it.

    The focus point of your shot is also more on the Z30, which is worse in this case since you'd expect the focus point to make the Z30 look better and Nexus 5 worse, but the Z30 still looks noticeably worse.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    11-07-13 01:18 PM
  17. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Sorry but now you're not making any sense. When do you see pixels and when is blurry?

    This has nothing to do with how much it costs, by the way. If it is too expensive, buy something else.

    The G2 is a nice phone with horrible software on it and volume buttons on the back for some reason. It has a nice display too. I think you are seeing that it is bright and like that about it because I know you are not seeing pixels on a 5" 720p display.

    Posted via CB10
    I can discern individual pixels=
    There are situations when I can see one pixel's contours.
    Especially on text, with black on white, or vice versa.
    Blurry=
    Pictures or text, compared to a 1080p display look blurrier on the Z30.

    I talk about price, because the competition is far better in the considering price, and because Jrohland talked about an increase in price of 15% if the Z30 would use better specs.
    The phones I am interested in all cost between 600-700$.
    I therefore don't understand why you said that I should buy something else if the Z30 is too expensive.

    Money, at least for me is not the real problem in the sense of not having enough to buy a phone I want.
    I buy them off-contract for years now anyway.
    The problem is how much value I get for my money.
    I can buy (and most certainly will) a Note 3 for the same amount a Z30 would cost.
    But I get a far better CPU, GPU, Camera, Display, Ecosystem and app catalogue.

    Posted via CB10
    kbz1960 likes this.
    11-07-13 01:20 PM
  18. lawguyman's Avatar
    You understand that in a 720p phone that their are 720 pixels in each horizontal row and 1280 pixels in each vertical row?

    The Z30's screen is around 2.5 inches wide. That means there are around 144 pixels in each half inch horizontal line. Since you see pixels so well can you tell me how many pixels are in a single period in a z30?

    Posted via CB10
    11-07-13 01:29 PM
  19. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    You understand that in a 720p phone that their are 720 pixels in each horizontal row and 1280 pixels in each vertical row?

    The Z30's screen is around 2.5 inches wide. That means there are around 144 pixels in each half inch horizontal line. Since you see pixels so well can you tell me how many pixels are in a single period in a z30?

    Posted via CB10
    That wasn't the point.
    I can see aliasing because of the resolution.
    What's so hard to understand about that?

    Posted via CB10
    11-07-13 01:31 PM
  20. lawguyman's Avatar
    That wasn't the point.
    I can see aliasing because of the resolution.
    What's so hard to understand about that?

    Posted via CB10
    No chance.

    Posted via CB10
    11-07-13 01:33 PM
  21. dejanh's Avatar
    No chance.

    Posted via CB10
    OK, since you say that's the case then it must be true. After all, you know all of our eyes better than we do. /end argument

    Seriously...I'm sure he can see it. I can see it too. The jaggies around round objects are apparent even at viewing distance...maybe I need to correct that...the objects are not crisp. Sometimes you see jaggies, other times the content looks weirdly distorted, as though it is not in focus. I have seen it, on two devices, with my own eyes. Text, same thing. Got to a website called Incisive Media - Global B2B Publishers €“ In print, In person, Online (good example since it has a lot of varied content and lots of text) on the Z30 and Z10 and look at the readability at default zoom level. The Z10 is much more crisp and readable exactly because of the higher pixel density.

    Maybe you want to argue with me as well how in the CRT days any refresh rate below 100Hz I could see flickering...that must be false too, no? I must be crazy...no?
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    11-07-13 01:45 PM
  22. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    No chance.

    Posted via CB10
    I don't understand the response.

    Maybe it's a problem with the choice of my words, but what is there not to understand that I see aliasing because of the resolution (and therfore the PPI) when looking at text?

    What the hell?
    Now you're telling me what I myself experience is an illusion, or what?
    I actually didn't see it and it's all in my head?
    Even though I can't see it anymore when looking at a 1080p display (440 ppi against 290 ppi) with the same size on the same webpage?

    I wonder whom of us two is in denial here...


    Posted via CB10
    11-07-13 01:49 PM
  23. lawguyman's Avatar
    OK, since you say that's the case then it must be true. After all, you know all of our eyes better than we do. /end argument

    Seriously...I'm sure he can see it. I can see it too. The jaggies around round objects are apparent even at viewing distance...maybe I need to correct that...the objects are not crisp. Sometimes you see jaggies, other times the content looks weirdly distorted, as though it is not in focus. I have seen it, on two devices, with my own eyes. Text, same thing. Got to a website called Incisive Media - Global B2B Publishers – In print, In person, Online (good example since it has a lot of varied content and lots of text) on the Z30 and Z10 and look at the readability at default zoom level. The Z10 is much more crisp and readable exactly because of the higher pixel density.

    Maybe you want to argue with me as well how in the CRT days any refresh rate below 100Hz I could see flickering...that must be false too, no? I must be crazy...no?
    With CRTs you were seeing strobing. That is a limitation of the technology so I believe you about that.

    I think with the z30 you are seeing what you expect to see.

    Posted via CB10
    11-07-13 01:54 PM
  24. lawguyman's Avatar
    I don't understand the response.

    Maybe it's a problem with the choice of my words, but what is there not to understand that I see aliasing because of the resolution (and therfore the PPI) when looking at text?

    What the hell?
    Now you're telling me what I myself experience is an illusion, or what?
    I actually didn't see it and it's all in my head?
    Even though I can't see it anymore when looking at a 1080p display (440 ppi against 290 ppi) with the same size on the same webpage?

    I wonder whom of us two is in denial here...


    Posted via CB10
    I don't think you really understand what aliasing is in this context.

    Posted via CB10
    11-07-13 01:57 PM
  25. dejanh's Avatar
    With CRTs you were seeing strobing. That is a limitation of the technology so I believe you about that.

    I think with the z30 you are seeing what you expect to see.

    Posted via CB10
    Ugh ...no, I am not, because if you and I could physically meet and stand side by side and pull out a Z30, I am telling you with 100% certainty that I could point out specific sections/points/areas on the display where the problems show up. Can we at least agree to this since I don't think that we will agree otherwise...for some people, like me, or MarsupilamiX, or others that have the ability to perceive a greater amount of detail the Z30 display may not be adequate because of its lower PPI.

    Can we at least agree to that?

    You are also actually completely ignoring the fact too that I want a Z30. I like the better speakers, the better antenna, the battery life, everything. That is exactly why I went to the store multiple times to look at the demos in detail. First device I saw my reactions was "this can't be right...BlackBerry could not have put out a device whose display looks this bad and put it above the Z10...it must be this one specific device". I went again and spent another 30 minutes with the device in a differently randomly chosen store and the impression did not change, at all. All of the same problems remained. I could even see the same problems from your poor picture.

    Now I am stuck. I want the Z30 for many other benefits, but I cannot look at the horrible display all day, and I use my phone a lot (avg. 15GB of data per month). Do you see why I don't want to cut BlackBerry any slack?
    Last edited by dejanh; 11-07-13 at 02:10 PM.
    11-07-13 01:59 PM
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