[gonzo uk]

If it's $450-�300 I would buy one on release, but if it's $600-�400 I will wait and buy one used or when they are reduced.

[aha]

Awesome info guys. Everything is important in this market, industrial design, mechanical specs, electronic specs, OS, apps, marketing, x factors, etc, etc. They are all scrutinized under magnifying glasses.

RIM's industrial and mechanical designs have always been top notch, but their electronics was usually one or two generations behind of everybody. I think they reduced the gap quite a bit with OS7 devices and almost caught up with PlayBook. After that they pretty much stopped releasing devices until BB10. The rumored BB10 specs show that they did indeed catch up with the other flagship phones, but not quite leapfroging the competitions. But the trend is good and I think there is a good chance that the next gen BB10 phones will be the time for them to really leap frog competitions on electronics.

[Stychill]

sounds like the apple way of doing things.

[Stychill]

If it's $450-�300 I would buy one on release, but if it's $600-�400 I will wait and buy one used or when they are reduced.

$450 - $500 sounds like a decent asking price considering the specs

[Stychill]

How can you have a low specced device and still charge the same as high specced devices on other platforms, sure the iphone 5 has a dual core processor but its the most recent most efficient they have produced so far, come launch that ti omap 4470 will be near 6 months old. In electronics years that like 1 full year, yet i'm hearing i'm still going to have to shell out $600 for that, sure BB10 will sell among loyalists but how will it do trying to sway users of other platforms. looks more like you're charging me highly to have the privilege of using your OS. BTW if the Z10 is the mid tier device and is expected to sell for $600 then whats the A series (high end) going to sell for. will that be the BB10 equivalent to a porsche P whatever.

[RubberChicken76]

Well, I don't need to repost that the PB was a complete fail when first released. Had a huge amount of issues and lack of being able to do simple things(lack of apps, slow hardware, etc..).

I agree, the PlayBook had huge issues when released. And if I were in your shoes, I'd feel the same way. But I bought my 64GB for $199 when 2.0 was out, so it was fine for me.

Regardless, I still don't agree with your about the hardware being 'underpowered', particularly when it was launched. Priced too high? Sure. Missing critical apps? Fine. Some OS glitches to work out? Sure. Light app store? OK.

But 'underpowered hardware' is not one of the faults I'd give the PlayBook.

[RubberChicken76]

RIM's best chance is with people who don't yet own a smartphone.

A critical market for sure. Also, the people who still have BlackBerrys and stuck with them. They may also have a shot with people who left BlackBerry waiting for the OS to catch up but aren't particularly enamoured with what they're on now. Also, the leftover Symbian users in some parts are a sizeable base.

Even in the US, almost 50% don't use a smartphone yet.

Exactly. This is why I struggle mightily with the thinking that there is only room for two or three ecosystems. If most of the world isn't on a smartphone yet, that suggests the Smartphone market is going to be growing for a while. Why should RIM (or Microsoft) waste energy trying to convert iOS and Android users) when there are easier pickings?

It's much easier to win over a new virgin customer than one that's already entrenched in an ecosystem.

Agree. One thing I would love to see more data on is on the degrees of entrenchment. This is not scientific, but let me give a qualitative example. My boss will never leave iOS. He uses too many apps, has too much Apple hardware and even if he sees other gadgets that he thinks are 'cool', he won't switch.

On the other, I've seen six iPhone users switch to Samsung Galaxies, one iPhone user switch to Nokia Lumia 920 and one iPhone user hold out to get the new BlackBerry 10.

When I started asking them about it, there was a trend. 1) They were tired of iPhone and wanted to try something different. 2) They didn't buy apps or content. 3) The apps they used were common on all platforms.

Some were Apple fanboys (with Macs and Apple TVs) and some were not.

Would love to see the smartphone market segmented further. I see merit in the 'invested in ecosystem market' argument; but I also suspect a good chunk of smartphone users aren't seriously invested in anything or would face switching barriers.

[samadkins29]

If I didn't own a Dev Alpha, I would fully agree with this.. but you know what.. everyone who I have showed the Dev Alpha to even in it's cobbled form.. is amazed with it, wants to play with it, wants to try taking photos with it, wants to try the keyboard.. you know what they don't ask though? A single damn thing about specs.(Reduced)

I think I can understand your view point better now. If you have the Dev unit its safe to say that apps are a big thing for you (because you make them?) And yes one of the bad things spouted about BB is the lack of apps. Since you have the Dev unit, do you know if we will be able to run android apps or ported apps or what the deal is with that?

I agree, the PlayBook had huge issues when released. And if I were in your shoes, I'd feel the same way. But I bought my 64GB for $199 when 2.0 was out, so it was fine for me.

Regardless, I still don't agree with your about the hardware being 'underpowered', particularly when it was launched. Priced too high? Sure. Missing critical apps? Fine. Some OS glitches to work out? Sure. Light app store? OK.

But 'underpowered hardware' is not one of the faults I'd give the PlayBook.

I think most people who are happy are the ones who only paid $299 or $199 and received the PB with 2.0. I can see how your experience could be totally different from mine. Since I no longer own it and have not used it with 2.0. I guess I cant compare the units to the one I received. I assumed it was lack of power but it may have just been a poor OS situation that was resolved with 2.0. The biggest gripe for me was lagg between switching apps(even with only a few open), a BB sync that was incredible slow and disconnected, and although it had a nice resolution screen the refresh rate was terrible. Three major things come into play when looking at a screen. Resolution, PPI (DPI), and Refresh rate. PB nailed the first two. But the refresh rate is what you notice the most when touching and moving things on the screen. All in all, I will admit I could be wrong if all that was simply the need for PB 2.0 to be fully optimized. Its just when you wait 8+ months, buy it the day it comes out, and paid $600 for it. I was expecting better coming out the opening gate.

[RubberChicken76]

I think most people who are happy are the ones who only paid $299 or $199 and received the PB with 2.0.

I know quite a few people with PlayBooks actually, and only one or two who bought it at the original price. And the early adopters sold it ... so I think you're onto something.

The biggest gripe for me was lagg between switching apps(even with only a few open

)

I don't notice any issues with switching. The UI on some apps can be laggier than I like on occasion though. I suspect the AIR apps on the PlayBook may contribute to this sluggishness. Hopefully cascades will eliminate the problem. Judging from the massive difference in quality between air games and native games, I'm hopeful.

[anon(3896606)]

I see a lot of people fighting here, so I find this necessary.

[TomJasper]

Go figure 23/56. Reminds me of yappy dog I had once,thing would not shut up no matter how many treats is was given or how many belly rubs it got , RIP my puppy.

I see a lot of people fighting here, so I find this necessary.

[SirJes]

That still might not be enough for a few.. "It should at least have 4GB. The next Sony phone is going to have 3GB"

You have a point there lol..its sad really

[crackcookie]

The PB is prime example of an under power unit with a nice UI. Lets not get into its sales figures.... If your still wondering why no store stocks BB, its because the current phone line up is over priced. Thats RIM's fault not the stores. RIM could make a killing selling direct online and in electronics stores if the price point is right. When you have a company that's not doing so hot right now, the point is to get your phone into as many hands as possible. Consumers want unlocked/unbranded phones. TMO is planning to drop all subsidized phone prices and plans, a move I fully back. How well do you think computers would sell is they were locked into only one internet provider. "Enjoy your new DELL/Comcast internet computer" LOL

RIM still has to make money though, I think they can put BB7 phones out for cheap, once BB10 phones are released, because BB7 phones suck compared to the competition. Lets be real here, I can get a iphone5 from Walmart from 127, its still 200 else where. I can get an S3 for 150. And at a lot of stores, the iphone 4S is 100 or less and the S2 is like 10 bucks....RIM can't compete...even with lowered prices, the problem is crappy hardware. So once BB10 comes out, people should WANT IT, and then afterwards, give kids or people who can't afford it, a BB7 or maybe a "lower end BB10"

[Stychill]

RIM still has to make money though, I think they can put BB7 phones out for cheap, once BB10 phones are released, because BB7 phones suck compared to the competition. Lets be real here, I can get a iphone5 from Walmart from 127, its still 200 else where. I can get an S3 for 150. And at a lot of stores, the iphone 4S is 100 or less and the S2 is like 10 bucks....RIM can't compete...even with lowered prices, the problem is crappy hardware. So once BB10 comes out, people should WANT IT, and then afterwards, give kids or people who can't afford it, a BB7 or maybe a "lower end BB10"

rim just like apple has a history with overpriced smartphones, i honestly can't stand it with apple and if RIM continues with it they better back it up with something spectacular or its time to jump ship or wait it out until prices get to a reasonable level (maybe), i currently own one of the crappiest smartphones rim has ever produced the Storm 9550, it was a gift so i kept it, i've had enough and i'm ready to upgrade. For some reason i honestly like rim but i didn't even consider any of their smartphones running OS 7. In my opinion its just the same os 5 crap but refined. All those devices were overpriced in my opinion they weren't worth that premium price tag customers were robbed with those. BB10 actually looks and for what i've seen behaves like a modern OS. With the leaked specs on the Z10 its featuring dated hardware components that have been around for awhile, how does that translate to $600 up front. It's all i keep saying, i'm just looking forward to the 30th of next month i really need to see some official pricing on this.

[Hypnoboy]

I read the first page of this thread, and kind of skimmed the rest, so forgive me if this has been covered. I may have missed it. But...

1.) Has ANY actual pricing been announced?? Like, for REAL? Is this whole thing people getting angry about speculation??

2.) I've NEVER paid more than $199 for a phone. My 9810 was $49. Yes, I got them from AT&T, and yes I had to sign a contract. But don't YOU need a carrier as well? If your carrier has deals, LIKE THEY ALWAYS DO, won't that be good enough? I may be in the minority here on THIS board, but I'm sure that I'm in the PUBLIC majority when I say that I don't need an Un-Locked phone. I'll take what I can get from my provider. If they, like AT&T, put too many restrictions on it, like they do with BB Bridge, then I'll just go to Verizon or something, and I'll probably be able to get the full version of the L-Series for about $199.

[jimpilot]

If RIM doesn't come out with a double quad core with 10 gigs of memory and a two week battery they will fail.
And they better price them really cheap or I won't buy it.

Post from the future. Every year I've seen anyone come out with a new model of any phone there are those who demand newer than state of the art specs and absolute certainty that nothing else will do.

Bottom line IMO will be not the number of gigs or hertz but when someone holds the phone in the store how cool is it and what apps are available for it.

We can keep on about quads etc. but it isn't up to us.

[Bla1ze]

I think I can understand your view point better now. If you have the Dev unit its safe to say that apps are a big thing for you (because you make them?) And yes one of the bad things spouted about BB is the lack of apps. Since you have the Dev unit, do you know if we will be able to run android apps or ported apps or what the deal is with that?

The Android ports can / do run on the Dev Alpha and will run on the Z10 when released as well. In fact, they actually run better on the Dev Alpha than on the current PlayBook. The Android Player has been further optimized on the BB10 builds. That said though, I really wish the Android Player was never implemented. Yes, I get it.. it ups their app numbers but to me it will always be a half baked implementation. I have enough Android devices. I don't need my BlackBerry running their apps, that's why I bought Android devices. I think they should be pushing harder for Devs to build native. But alas, some people agree with me on that while others really don't care as long as the apps they want are there. Me.. I want the apps and I don't want them to be Android ports, lol.

[theninjew]

The Android ports can / do run on the Dev Alpha and will run on the Z10 when released as well. In fact, they actually run better on the Dev Alpha than on the current PlayBook. The Android Player has been further optimized on the BB10 builds. That said though, I really wish the Android Player was never implemented. Yes, I get it.. it ups their app numbers but to me it will always be a half baked implementation. I have enough Android devices. I don't need my BlackBerry running their apps, that's why I bought Android devices. I think they should be pushing harder for Devs to build native. But alas, some people agree with me on that while others really don't care as long as the apps they want are there. Me.. I want the apps and I don't want them to be Android ports, lol.

Agree 100% with you. I want the app to be native as well so I can say that's its a Blackberry app, not just an android pt. RIM has made it so easy to make apps, that there is no reason not to. Unless the dev is lazy and doesn't want to spend the time to make it native.

[meltbox360]

truly, Z10 is not top of the top smartphone spec. But Z10 brings smartphone meaning back to the origin.

I always say that I ever try London. the spec is still out of nowhere if you compare it with Nexus 4. But, don't question about it's overall performance.

You cannot find the simplicity, the easy to use, and truly liquid OS from others. BB10 is straight to the point. I don't see any widget there, but the apps itself is the widget for itself.

Don't need the shortcut since you can jump into the page where the app exist.

If Z10 price is USD 600, I still want to buy it. If I cannot afford it by cash, I can afford it by credit.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9360 using Tapatalk

I cringe when I hear people compare live tiles or widgets to action frames... Well It's just a matter of time before people get smacked upside the face for blasting BB10. I'm waiting patiently and will buy a BB10 phone ESPECIALLY due to the new tiered/non-existent fees for BB. Very good decision in the long run if you ask me...

As for specs... In the PC world they matter. In the smart phone world they only matter in the android section. Even there its making less and less of a difference.

Edit: Also this IS all speculation and I'm guessing it will sell for a touch under $600.

[Stychill]

I cringe when I hear people compare live tiles or widgets to action frames... Well It's just a matter of time before people get smacked upside the face for blasting BB10. I'm waiting patiently and will buy a BB10 phone ESPECIALLY due to the new tiered/non-existent fees for BB. Very good decision in the long run if you ask me...

As for specs... In the PC world they matter. In the smart phone world they only matter in the android section. Even there its making less and less of a difference.

what do you mean by tiered/non existent fees?

[lnichols]

I love how people already know the price of the phone, the specs (even though we now may have 2 GB of RAM, and what else is different), and what apps won't be on the phone and talk with such absolution well before RIM has announced the phone.

[Skeevecr]

Yes, it's up to the specs of phones that are out NOW. But the L series won't be out and in consumers hands till February/March at the earliest, and by that time it'll be up against quad core phones with 2gb RAM and 1080p screens. That's the problem...

There will only be android phones with 1080p displays and none of those are sub 5" displays yet, so those phones will be aimed at a niche market, albeit a sizeable one, whereas the l-series has more mainstream aims and have gone for about the best display they can without going down the oversized display route yet.

As far as quad core, who cares as long as the CPUs they use are resulting in a fast os, if they have to throw pointless specs at their phones to make them sell then they are doomed since the only winner of that game in the long run will be Samsung.

2gb of ram, unlike a quad core boosts the experience of bb10, so it is a good thing we now know they have that, it is almost like rim knows what areas of bb10 will benefit from what specs or something.

[omniusovermind]

For those of you claiming to come from an IT job, yet remain unaware that the BB10 OS will be capable of running hi def games likely for a good 2 year run, has more than enough RAM for a 2 year run when considering the way the OS works, and playback hi def video, is only powering a 4.2 display not a phablet monstrosity, and does all of the above without any hiccups...

... I'd hire you on as an IT tech. For a starting salary based on your apparent knowledge level. How's $10k/year with no benefits, pension, or vacation tickle your fancy? PM me your resume.

[samadkins29]

I read the first page of this thread, and kind of skimmed the rest, so forgive me if this has been covered. I may have missed it. But...

1.) Has ANY actual pricing been announced?? Like, for REAL? Is this whole thing people getting angry about speculation??

2.) I've NEVER paid more than $199 for a phone. My 9810 was $49. Yes, I got them from AT&T, and yes I had to sign a contract. But don't YOU need a carrier as well? If your carrier has deals, LIKE THEY ALWAYS DO, won't that be good enough? I may be in the minority here on THIS board, but I'm sure that I'm in the PUBLIC majority when I say that I don't need an Un-Locked phone. I'll take what I can get from my provider. If they, like AT&T, put too many restrictions on it, like they do with BB Bridge, then I'll just go to Verizon or something, and I'll probably be able to get the full version of the L-Series for about $199.

1) Your kind of correct. But RIM has a track record of pricing phones high to keep the devices in the top tier range. yes its speculation, but it based on a good amount of pricing history.
2) Paying $199 for a phone is simply a trick to get you to pay way more for your plan. I doubt you can get that phone for $199 AND unlimited everything for $49. What more you pay than $49 over the course of your 24 month contract will most likely exceed the amount paid by just buying the phone outright. To some people this may not matter, but I like to pay the company for the product and the phone provider for the service.

The Android ports can / do run on the Dev Alpha and will run on the Z10 when released as well. In fact, they actually run better on the Dev Alpha than on the current PlayBook. The Android Player has been further optimized on the BB10 builds. That said though, I really wish the Android Player was never implemented. Yes, I get it.. it ups their app numbers but to me it will always be a half baked implementation. I have enough Android devices. I don't need my BlackBerry running their apps, that's why I bought Android devices. I think they should be pushing harder for Devs to build native. But alas, some people agree with me on that while others really don't care as long as the apps they want are there. Me.. I want the apps and I don't want them to be Android ports, lol.

Its not so much the need for apps in my case. Its just that I have found a few useful apps on Android that may or may not be avail natively when BB10 launches. Primarily interested in the Paypal "Here" so I can run the cards via the phone.

For those of you claiming to come from an IT job, yet remain unaware that the BB10 OS will be capable of running hi def games likely for a good 2 year run, has more than enough RAM for a 2 year run when considering the way the OS works, and playback hi def video, is only powering a 4.2 display not a phablet monstrosity, and does all of the above without any hiccups...

... I'd hire you on as an IT tech. For a starting salary based on your apparent knowledge level. How's $10k/year with no benefits, pension, or vacation tickle your fancy? PM me your resume.

With that attitude I sincerely hope you dont own a company. Considering you only seem to be interested in how well it plays games, thinks that 1GB of ram is enough for an OS that claims to "run everything all the time", and apparently should only be good enough to last two years...... I dunno about you but I use my electronics until they die or become so dated that an upgrade is in order.

[Plazmic Flame]

The Android ports can / do run on the Dev Alpha and will run on the Z10 when released as well. In fact, they actually run better on the Dev Alpha than on the current PlayBook. The Android Player has been further optimized on the BB10 builds. That said though, I really wish the Android Player was never implemented. Yes, I get it.. it ups their app numbers but to me it will always be a half baked implementation. I have enough Android devices. I don't need my BlackBerry running their apps, that's why I bought Android devices. I think they should be pushing harder for Devs to build native. But alas, some people agree with me on that while others really don't care as long as the apps they want are there. Me.. I want the apps and I don't want them to be Android ports, lol.

God! Thank you! I agree 100%. I hated the whole Android Player thing... It's like it's tainted the OS. If Devs are serious they would build native apps.