1. Silverfern's Avatar
    i seen a lot of proof about the koodo/Telus model of z10 working on wind's hspa network (shows up as 4G). why does it work? the RFF91LW does not have 1700MHz frequency. i have looked around a lot and have found no answers, just confirmation that it works, so can anyone help me out here?

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9860 using Tapatalk
    02-13-13 09:49 AM
  2. BB_Ooo's Avatar
    Silverfern, I feel for you as you want to know the answer to the same damn question that I and everyone else wants to know! I am a Wind customer myself so I know the pain. I have also bought a Koodo Z10 that I am waiting to unlock for cheaper price or waiting for damn Wind to come out with their version.
    You saw what I replied in the other thread explaining why I think it may work so I won't go on too long. Until someone goes into the engineering screens or somebody from BB tells us the truth we won't get an official answer.

    It has to be one of these truths:
    1) 1700 MHz (AWS Band IV) radio frequency isn't needed to function on Wind
    2) The RFF91LW technically has a 1700 MHz signal for LTE, so maybe the broadcast frequency can be shared between two different protocols
    3) The 1700 MHz (AWS Band IV) frequency is in all Blackberry STL100-3 or at the very least the RFF91LW and RFK121LW models. As you saw from my link in the other thread they actually do share the same Safety and Product Information spec sheet. And also Telus which sells the 91 list that it is capable of AWS Band IV.

    I suspect that it is the same phone and that the big three Bell, Rogers, Telus wanted a variant that they say would not work on Wind for this very reason! This is also why the Wind version is delayed because the big three doesn't want the phone that is advertised to work on every network out as yet. I would only be afraid if a software update nulifies the signal similar to Nexus 4.
    Android 4.2.2 update reportedly breaks LTE compatibility on the Nexus 4 | MobileSyrup.com But if it is built into the phone, it is just a matter of keeping the signal open to use.

    All theories and I am by far no expert! I don't want to give advice, but I would suggest if you are uncomfortable with getting one from the Big Three, I would just wait for Wind's version which you know will work because the specs say so.
    02-14-13 12:25 PM
  3. Silverfern's Avatar
    thanks for the long post! if the big 3 are lying, wont that be fraud against consumers? i am comfortable of getting one, but koodo wont sell to me out of contract, how did you get yours? wind is almost guaranteed to be more expensive though, i really like koodo's 550 price.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9860 using Tapatalk
    02-14-13 12:38 PM
  4. BB_Ooo's Avatar
    thanks for the long post! if the big 3 are lying, wont that be fraud against consumers? i am comfortable of getting one, but koodo wont sell to me out of contract, how did you get yours? wind is almost guaranteed to be more expensive though, i really like koodo's 550 price.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9860 using Tapatalk
    Sorry for the long @ss post again. As you can see, I am a Newbie. I bought it with Koodo through activation. So I bought it for $452.00 which includes taxes on a cheap month to month post paid plan ($30.00). The remaining $150.00 is on the tab. I plan on cancelling the account and paying off the tab which is a little hastle, but barely anybody is selling without an activation at the very least. I haven't done it yet though as I am waiting for this company I have unlocked with to update their website. Have used before and they are dirt cheap. One of these guys can probably tell you how the cancelling process works out.
    02-14-13 12:48 PM
  5. Silverfern's Avatar
    can we cancel the plan on the spot? also did you have to buy a sim card?

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9860 using Tapatalk
    02-14-13 12:52 PM
  6. BB_Ooo's Avatar
    Oh and the fraud part, I am no lawyer either so I will let someone else chime in about that. We all just know that something doesn't add up.
    02-14-13 12:53 PM
  7. BB_Ooo's Avatar
    It is not a contract so I cannot seet why we can't cancel on the spot and the sim came with the phone. I will let some other people give you real information.
    02-14-13 12:55 PM
  8. DannyAves's Avatar
    02-14-13 02:14 PM
  9. Supa_Fly1's Avatar
    Here is proof directly from BlackBerry's White Paper - dare I say RIM?

    Z10 RFF91LW model (just search for RFF91LW, it'll be the 8/8 search results you find in the document linked below).
    Note: DCS = Dual Channel Support as in DC-HSPA
    http://docs.blackberry.com/en/smartp...9158831-en.pdf

    Mobile network radio specifications for model number RFK121LW:
    Quad-band LTE support: LTE 700, LTE 850, LTE 1700, LTE 1900 MHz band
    Quad-band HSPA+ support: UMTS 800/UMTS 850, UMTS 1700, UMTS 1900, UMTS 2100 MHz
    band
    Quad-band GSM support: GSM 850, GSM 900, DCS 1800, PCS 1900 MHz
    Power class: Class 1 (DCS 1800, PCS 1900), Class 4 (GSM 850) as defined in GSM 5.05, Class 4
    (GSM 900) as defined in GSM 02.06, Class E2 (GSM 850, GSM 900, DCS 1800, PCS 1900), Class
    3 (UMTS, LTE)
    Transmitting frequency: GSM 824 to 849 MHz, GSM 880 to 915 MHz, DCS 1710 to 1785 MHz,
    PCS 1850 to 1910 MHz, UMTS 824 to 849 MHz, UMTS 1710 to 1755 MHz, UMTS 1850 to 1910
    MHz, UMTS 1920 to 1980 MHz, LTE 704 to 716 MHz, LTE 824 to 849 MHz, LTE 1850 to 1910
    MHz, LTE 1710 to 1755 MHz
    Receiving frequency: GSM 869 to 894 MHz, GSM 925 to 960 MHz, DCS 1805 to 1880 MHz, PCS
    1930 to 1990 MHz, UMTS 869 to 894 MHz, UMTS 1930 to 1990 MHz, UMTS 2110 to 2155
    MHz, UMTS 2110 to 2170 MHz, LTE 734 to 746 MHz, LTE 869 to 894 MHz, LTE 1930 to 1990
    MHz, LTE 2110 to 2155 MHz
    Mobile network radio specifications for model number RFF91LW:
    Quad-band LTE support: LTE 700, LTE 850, LTE 1700, LTE 1900 MHz band
    Tri-band HSPA+ support: UMTS 800/UMTS 850, UMTS 1900, UMTS 2100 MHz band
    Quad-band GSM support: GSM 850, GSM 900, DCS 1800, PCS 1900 MHz
    Power class: Class 1 (DCS 1800, PCS 1900), Class 4 (GSM 850) as defined in GSM 5.05, Class 4
    (GSM 900) as defined in GSM 02.06, Class E2 (GSM 850, GSM 900, DCS 1800, PCS 1900), Class
    3 (UMTS, LTE)
    Transmitting frequency: GSM 824 to 849 MHz, GSM 880 to 915 MHz, DCS 1710 to 1785 MHz,
    PCS 1850 to 1910 MHz, UMTS 824 to 849 MHz, UMTS 1850 to 1910 MHz, UMTS 1920 to 1980
    MHz, LTE 704 to 716 MHz, LTE 824 to 849 MHz, LTE 1850 to 1910 MHz, LTE 1710 to 1755 MHz
    Receiving frequency: GSM 869 to 894 MHz, GSM 925 to 960 MHz, DCS 1805 to 1880 MHz, PCS
    1930 to 1990 MHz, UMTS 869 to 894 MHz, UMTS 1930 to 1990 MHz, UMTS 2110 to 2170
    MHz, LTE 734 to 746 MHz, LTE 869 to 894 MHz, LTE 1930 to 1990 MHz, LTE 2110 to 2155 MHz
    Wi-Fi network radio specifications:
    Wireless LAN standard: IEEE 802.11a, IEEE 802.11b, IEEE 802.11g, IEEE 802.11n
    Transmitting and receiving frequency for IEEE 802.11b/IEEE 802.11g/IEEE 802.11n: 2.412 to
    2.472 GHz
    Transmitting and receiving frequency for IEEE 802.11a/IEEE 802.11n: 5.180 to 5.825 GHz
    Bluetooth radio specifications:
    Single-band support: ISM 2.4 GHz
    Transmitting and receiving frequency: 2402 to 2480 MHz
    Bluetooth Class 2
    Core_Frequency and pels_17 like this.
    03-20-13 09:52 PM
  10. Core_Frequency's Avatar
    Here is proof directly from BlackBerry's White Paper - dare I say RIM?

    Z10 RFF91LW model (just search for RFF91LW, it'll be the 8/8 search results you find in the document linked below).
    Note: DCS = Dual Channel Support as in DC-HSPA
    http://docs.blackberry.com/en/smartp...9158831-en.pdf
    Yup both the the 121LW and the 91LW are the same phone. It's just that the 91LW has those frequencies locked but once you unlock the phone they become available to use

    Thanks for the link directly from blackberry! This way everyone can believe that they are both the same phone
    03-20-13 10:04 PM
  11. Supa_Fly1's Avatar
    You welcome.

    I've been a member here for a while, bouncing in and out - being very critical of the site and the way its guided ... but all in all I'm not a bad guy. The end goal is to show how open and usable a smartphone can be in our lives, that which is by choice BlackBerry - without the requirement to be fashionable or the apple of the "IN" crowd.

    Once in a while I'll give something back to the community since you've all entertained extreme patience with my diatribes, blog posts and criticism
    03-21-13 12:29 AM
  12. eljeffreynyc's Avatar
    Thanks Supa_Fly1 for confirming this information. Now I can go see if I can find a good deal on white z10 rather than wait to see if t-mobile releases it down the line.
    03-21-13 03:10 PM
  13. modifier's Avatar
    Note: DCS = Dual Channel Support as in DC-HSPA
    for clarification, DCS is digital communication service, not dual channel support. . the DC in DC-HSPA+ is dual cell, not dual channel.

    DCS 1710-1785 is not the same as AWS 1710-1785. . carriers in the US/canada aren't on DCS.

    DCS references:
    - DCS definition (Phone Scoop)
    - GSM Timeslot and Frequency Specifications - RF Cafe
    - UMTS frequency bands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    DC-HSPA+ reference:
    - High-Speed Downlink Packet Access - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    AWS reference:
    - Advanced Wireless Services - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    i honestly hate quoting wikipedia but found a couple others to throw in there for good measure.

    given the above, i suspect 1700MHz isn't being used for 3G uploads with wind or t-mobile and may be why it's assumed the RFF91LW "unlocks 1700MHz" when used on these networks. . it could be more a matter of the carriers than the devices in this case.

    i'm still not convinced that the RFF91LW is the best choice for wind/t-mo customers but will admit that it appears to be working well for people.
    Last edited by modifier; 03-21-13 at 11:09 PM. Reason: typo
    raino and Core_Frequency like this.
    03-21-13 07:52 PM
  14. Core_Frequency's Avatar
    for clarification, DCS is digital communication service, not dual channel support. . the DC in DC-HSPA+ is dual cell, not dual channel.

    DCS 1710-1785 is not the same as AWS 1710-1785. . carriers in the US/canada aren't on DCS.

    DCS references:
    - DCS definition (Phone Scoop)
    - GSM Timeslot and Frequency Specifications - RF Cafe
    - UMTS frequency bands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    DC-HSPA+ reference:
    - High-Speed Downlink Packet Access - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    AWS reference:
    - Advanced Wireless Services - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    i honestly hate quoting wikipedia but found a couple others to throw in there for good measure.

    given the above, i suspect 1700MHz isn't being used for 3G uploads with wind or t-mobile and may be why it's assumed the RFF91LW "unlocks 1700MHz" when used on these networks. . it could be more a matter of the carriers than the devices in this case.

    i'm still not convinced that the RFF91LW is the best choice for wind/t-mo customers but will admit that it appears to be working well for people.
    Thanks for pointing that out

    But I was under the impression that AWS needs both 1700 and 2100 to operate correctly. Still don't understand why that people would get 3G in the same area where people with them that have iPhones only get EDGE
    03-21-13 11:33 PM
  15. modifier's Avatar
    either the firmware update on an unlocked phone really does open up that band, OR the carriers are leveraging different upload bands to compensate for phones without UMTS 1700. . since the Z10 hardware doesn't report which bands it can use, that answer might be difficult to nail down.
    03-22-13 10:37 AM
  16. raino's Avatar
    DCS 1710-1785 is not the same as AWS 1710-1785. . carriers in the US/canada aren't on DCS.
    Hah, I came to conclusion too, independently, when reading a Core_Frequency post about the STL100-1 in the TMO sub-forum. Good catch, but we're back to square one again.
    03-22-13 10:52 PM
  17. zippy88's Avatar
    It's either the same phone or the phone is somehow able to communicate with WIND using the LTE 1700 band.

    Posted via CB10
    03-22-13 11:35 PM
  18. taylortbb's Avatar
    If it's working with Wind and saying Wind Home it has to be working on UMTS AWS, Wind doesn't have a LTE network.

    That being said, I find it hard to believe that the 91's spec sheet wouldn't list UMTS AWS if it was software unlockable. Unlocking these things isn't some back door like rooting, it's done by the carriers themselves in many cases. If I had a 91 I'd be concerned some future software update might "fix" the problem and disable UMTS AWS because it's not approved. I don't expect Rogers to list it on their website, but the official spec sheet from BlackBerry says it's not supported.

    Has anyone checked if they have the same FCC IDs? If they don't then looking through the databases could be revealing, maybe the 91 is actually approved for UMTS AWS. If they have the same FCC ID then it's clearly software unlocking and the same device.
    03-23-13 12:12 AM
  19. Core_Frequency's Avatar
    I'm sitting next to my brother's iphone 5 in an area where he always gets edge. And I'm sitting here with my 91LW with a full T-Mobile 4G signal...

    To me it looks like it is working on T-Mobile's AWS frequency, that or my z10 is playing a trick on me hahaha

    I don't know anymore honestly, but I'm just happy that I'm getting 4G everywhere I've been to so far

    Posted via CB10
    03-23-13 01:23 AM
  20. raino's Avatar
    If I had a 91 I'd be concerned some future software update might "fix" the problem and disable UMTS AWS because it's not approved.
    If there is any AWS UMTS band unlocking going on, apparently it seems to be happening when an AWS UMTS network's SIM is put in. The other explanation is that the band is always unlocked, just not noticed until a SIM that can use it is put in. As for the software update being sent to disable it, I really doubt that would happen. There's no precedence for such an action, AFAIK. Usually it's the other way around--IIRC, the T-Mobile Galaxy Note II will have the LTE band activated when TMO's network goes live.

    Has anyone checked if they have the same FCC IDs?
    They're different.
    03-23-13 01:27 AM
  21. robroper's Avatar
    The Blackberry document cited clearly states the difference between the two ST100-3 models. The RFF91LW is described as 'Tri-band' for HSPDA 3G support and does not include the HSPDA 1700 (AWS Band 4) support included with the RFK121LW model, described in the same document as 'Quad-band'.. Thus the poster's statement that it is the same phone is incorrect. Also, the poster's assertion that the missing frequency is magically returned when the phone is unlocked is pure speculation and not supported by anything in the cited Blackberry document. Let's be fair.
    06-01-14 06:02 PM
  22. raino's Avatar
    The Blackberry document cited clearly states the difference between the two ST100-3 models. The RFF91LW is described as 'Tri-band' for HSPDA 3G support and does not include the HSPDA 1700 (AWS Band 4) support included with the RFK121LW model, described in the same document as 'Quad-band'.. Thus the poster's statement that it is the same phone is incorrect. Also, the poster's assertion that the missing frequency is magically returned when the phone is unlocked is pure speculation and not supported by anything in the cited Blackberry document. Let's be fair.
    True, BlackBerry's S&PI and even FCC documentation don't indicate a the presence of a UMTS 1700 band, but there are just way too many people here on CB--like the OP--saying they are on UMTS 1700 with a 91LW. At some point one just has to look beyond the manuals and at real world evidence.

    BlackBerry's S&PI for the Z30 RGU131LW says there's a LTE 2100 band in there, but there's no real world evidence supporting this. So I wouldn't rely solely on those manuals. There are other errors too in BB band documentation, like them listing LTE 2100 in the Z30 RFY111LW when the phone actually has LTE 1700 (band 4.)
    06-01-14 06:09 PM

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 123
    Last Post: 02-04-14, 12:04 PM
  2. Will the 8330 work with verizon and sprint?
    By Masselli in forum BlackBerry Curve 83xx
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-29-09, 07:02 PM
  3. How does the Storm work with GSM?
    By TangoXray in forum BlackBerry Storm
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-14-09, 10:09 PM
  4. How well does the Bold work with Macs?
    By cmiller2687 in forum BlackBerry Bold 9000
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 12-03-08, 09:14 PM
  5. does the BB work with OWA?
    By alexstjo in forum General BlackBerry Discussion
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 11-23-07, 09:40 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD