01-30-14 11:03 PM
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  1. Papaguan's Avatar
    A processor is never "off". When there's nothing to do, it goes into an idle state. In this state, the processor is given less voltage and lowers its frequency and just executes an operation that equates to nothing until the processor receives an actual instruction. The only time a processor is off is when the system is off. The only extra battery drain you'd have by enabling gestures when the screen is off is from the display actively ready to accept user input, which is negligble.
    04-08-13 06:24 PM
  2. ubizmo's Avatar
    I don't know how the Z10 screen is set up, but isn't it only necessary for a small strip at the bottom to be "Active" for the unlock gesture to work? Once that strip is crossed, the rest of the screen could be activated instantly.

    That's how I'd design it anyway. It shouldn't take that much power to keep a few millimeters alive along the bottom.


    Posted via CB10
    04-08-13 06:30 PM
  3. zten's Avatar
    I don't know how the Z10 screen is set up, but isn't it only necessary for a small strip at the bottom to be "Active" for the unlock gesture to work? Once that strip is crossed, the rest of the screen could be activated instantly.

    That's how I'd design it anyway. It shouldn't take that much power to keep a few millimeters alive along the bottom.


    Posted via CB10
    So you know for a fact its a millimeter? And nothing else? Interesting.

    Posted via CB10
    04-08-13 06:34 PM
  4. zten's Avatar
    A processor is never "off". When there's nothing to do, it goes into an idle state. In this state, the processor is given less voltage and lowers its frequency and just executes an operation that equates to nothing until the processor receives an actual instruction. The only time a processor is off is when the system is off. The only extra battery drain you'd have by enabling gestures when the screen is off is from the display actively ready to accept user input, which is negligble.
    What did you use to determine it is negligible?

    Posted via CB10
    04-08-13 06:35 PM
  5. baste07's Avatar
    I have the flip case, will this tip still be applicable to me? It turns it off and on when I close or open the cover

    Posted via CB10
    04-08-13 06:38 PM
  6. zten's Avatar
    I have the flip case, will this tip still be applicable to me? It turns it off and on when I close or open the cover

    Posted via CB10
    I use a pocket holster and noticed a major savings in battery over 10 hours with this disabled, it can't hurt for you to try it.

    Posted via CB10
    04-08-13 06:41 PM
  7. zten's Avatar
    I use a pocket holster and noticed a major savings in battery over 10 hours with this disabled, it can't hurt for you to try it. I am trying it for a week but after one day I'm seeing improvements.

    Posted via CB10


    Posted via CB10
    04-08-13 06:42 PM
  8. ubizmo's Avatar
    So you know for a fact its a millimeter? And nothing else? Interesting.

    Posted via CB10
    No, I don't, nor did I claim to know it. I'm no engineer but if I could figure out a way to make the unlock gesture work, without having to keep the entire screen in an active state, I think real engineers could too.

    Unless there's some technical reason why it can't be done this way.



    Posted via CB10
    peter9477 and Barljo like this.
    04-08-13 06:47 PM
  9. knighty2112's Avatar
    Not tried my Z10 with gestures while locked turned off as I get great battery life out of my Z10 already, so for me this is not necessary. I get a full day out of my phone with the average moderate usage I use it for during the day. Also to defy the advice on batteries here my phone seems to prefer conditioning than to not. The battery health is better getting an all night charge than if I took it off charge straight away when full. This may buck what the advice is for these batteries, but it's going OK so far.

    Posted via CB10 using my awesome BB Z10
    04-08-13 06:55 PM
  10. Hsuny12's Avatar
    I like the idea of saving the battery by turning gestures off when locked, however, I liked the easy 1 thumb unlocking/peek without having to reach up and hit the button. I guess there needs to be compromise to get the most out of your battery.
    04-08-13 06:55 PM
  11. Papaguan's Avatar
    What did you use to determine it is negligible?

    Posted via CB10
    Touch screen digitizers in this era of computing use very little power...maximum current consumption is probably on the order of micro amps when in use. And if all the device is doing is accepting gestures, it will use even less. You can argue over the subjective definition of "negligible" but the numbers are there.
    yvpan1 and tuxedo323 like this.
    04-08-13 07:03 PM
  12. zten's Avatar
    I like the idea of saving the battery by turning gestures off when locked, however, I liked the easy 1 thumb unlocking/peek without having to reach up and hit the button. I guess there needs to be compromise to get the most out of your battery.
    Yes this is very true I wouldn't be on here making absurd claims if I didn't notice a major difference.

    Posted via CB10
    04-08-13 07:05 PM
  13. louboutins's Avatar
    I sorta like having the gestures option though, hate pressing the button because I have to apply more pressure since I'm using this case hmm

    Posted via CB10
    b_n_s likes this.
    04-08-13 07:05 PM
  14. perfectson's Avatar
    sucks, people have to turn off one of the best features of the phone just to get a few hours of battery life out of it. I've had my phone on for 12 hours, slight to moderate usage and i'm still at 60%. Not running a bunch of apps in the background and only have my screen display set to 30 seconds.
    04-08-13 07:09 PM
  15. zten's Avatar
    Touch screen digitizers in this era of computing use very little power...maximum current consumption is probably on the order of micro amps when in use. And if all the device is doing is accepting gestures, it will use even less. You can argue over the subjective definition of "negligible" but the numbers are there.
    How many times do I have to write in here that it wouldn't just be a digitizer that's awaiting input it would also be the processor and a portion of ram. All these things can add up to cause battery drain. This is bad especially when the phone is just sitting in your pocket awaiting input. Maybe it's just a bug but it's worth a try to test it out. No one is forcing you to do it.

    Posted via CB10
    04-08-13 07:10 PM
  16. zten's Avatar
    I sorta like having the gestures option though, hate pressing the button because I have to apply more pressure since I'm using this case hmm

    Posted via CB10
    Yes it's nice to have hut it could be contributing to battery drain. You don't have to try it but I noticed a difference in just one day.

    Posted via CB10
    louboutins likes this.
    04-08-13 07:11 PM
  17. peter9477's Avatar
    it's everywhere on the Internet that lithium batteries should not be fully drained in the normal course of usage as it shortens battery life. It also says that the battery doesn't need conditioning. Please explain how is or that my battery seems to be able to retain power better than the first week I had it? Peter, you posted in another thread that you think it's a mirage, a fragment of our imagination. But as a user, and I know the regularity of my usage being a constant everyday, the battery has become better.
    There's two things there, so I'll take them separately. Sorry for the length. (I'm slowly collecting this material to put into the app in condensed form, and the web site.)

    On "conditioning" and how your battery appears to get better, it's likely you're relying on the % remaining indicator as your measure of how good your battery life is. The problem with that value is that it's simply an estimate calculated by the OS (or battery microcontroller... or both: I usually simplify it as "by the OS") based on recent charging and usage data. It tries to calculate the actual capacity of the battery (reflected in the "health" value). This is hard to do in a system where there are no stable conditions. At first the value can be off by a significant amount, but then as the system monitors the data it updates its estimate (of health, and % remaining) and this may result in an apparent increase in battery life over the initial period of use. This is the extent of the "conditioning" that should be involved with lithium batteries. (I'm not a lithium battery designer so I have to trust those who are, and who say there is no real conditioning effect going on, unlike some other battery technologies.)

    The other part of this apparent initial improvements is likely a series of things involving real changes (like the device initially having to synchronize all your accounts, calendars, etc), your likely heavier initial use when the device is still a novelty, and lastly some degree of mental trickery (placebo effect). It should be possible to measure this sort of thing, but I have yet to get data back from people who have installed Battery Guru on a brand new device and observed any such "conditioning" effect. Would be interesting to see the hard numbers on that.

    As for lithium batteries "being destroyed if you drain them fully" (as some have stated), this is a combination of truth and misunderstanding. The truth is (again, reporting from research) that the life of a lithium battery decreases over time both from actual use (charge/discharge) and from the passage of time (gradual degradation even without use). The graphs of battery life show that the further you discharge them, the shorter their lives. Same with charging them. They'd last the longest if you left them around 40% and never used them except to periodically recharge them to that point.

    The system has extensive protection against excessive discharging, however. People who proclaim "it will destroy it!" are ignoring the fact that the OS will turn off the system around 3.4V, well above the point where serious damage occurs (down around 2.8V). The batteries themselves also generally have their own integrated microcontrollers which will disconnect the load if the voltage drops anywhere near the danger level. In other words, you can't actually "fully discharge" your lithium battery, because "0%" is nowhere near "fully discharged".

    0% is lower than 10%, however (duh), and the lower you go the shorter the long-term battery life. By how much? Probably not enough to matter, except that it may be a measurable difference if you were to discharge to 0% every time, rather than doing it infrequently. I do it infrequently, but without the slightest concern that I'm damaging the battery. Maybe I'll get a few weeks less life on it, or a few days... we don't have enough data to say, but in the case of the PlayBook there are many people who have discharged to 0% repeatedly, dozens of times, with no one yet reporting a hugely different battery health because of it. And that's after two years.
    04-08-13 07:11 PM
  18. peter9477's Avatar
    I don't know how the Z10 screen is set up, but isn't it only necessary for a small strip at the bottom to be "Active" for the unlock gesture to work? Once that strip is crossed, the rest of the screen could be activated instantly.

    That's how I'd design it anyway. It shouldn't take that much power to keep a few millimeters alive along the bottom.
    You're correct that this is a sensible design. Whether they did that or not may be something one could figure out by studying the touch controller involved, which is apparently the Synaptics Clearpad 3203 The ClearPad (according to the iFixit teardown).

    Generally in an embedded system like this you offload various types of work from the main CPU (the ARM chip), so that it is NOT involved in the mundane details of monitoring for touch inputs while the device is in standby. That lets you keep it in a low-power state.

    The touch controller itself would use extremely little power, though I haven't tried digging up a datasheet on that to find specifics. (Often a brand new device like this will use numerous parts for which you can't easily get data sheets unless you're actually going to be buying lots of the part, unfortunately, so it might be hard to find the info.) It may also let you configure it to monitor only a couple of channels of input, corresponding to, say, the bottom bezel region and a bit of the screen region right above it, and it might even have an integrated "wakeup" feature. The cutsheet for this part proclaims "Advanced touch controller silicon and optimized power management help maximize battery life." which may include such features.
    04-08-13 07:23 PM
  19. Papaguan's Avatar
    How many times do I have to write in here that it wouldn't just be a digitizer that's awaiting input it would also be the processor and a portion of ram. All these things can add up to cause battery drain. This is bad especially when the phone is just sitting in your pocket awaiting input. Maybe it's just a bug but it's worth a try to test it out. No one is forcing you to do it.

    Posted via CB10
    And as I explained in my first post in this topic, what you are claiming is untrue. A processor is ALWAYS going to be waiting for the next instruction regardless of whether the screen is off, on or you enable gestures when the screen is off. That's simply how a processor functions. The only time a processor isn't consuming power is when the system is off. Same goes for RAM. The point I'm trying to get across is that the touch screen digitizer is the only extra element consuming power when you enable gestures when the screen is off, as opposed to disabling gestures when the screen is off.

    I'm sorry if it seems like I'm shooting you down, or I'm trying to seem better than anyone else...it is not my intention. I'm just stating the facts so people do not spread misinformation. I think your intentions are good, so don't let me discourage you from helping the Crackberry community!
    04-08-13 07:25 PM
  20. ErinnM's Avatar
    Thanks for the tip. Will try it out!

    Posted via Crackberry Z10
    04-08-13 07:26 PM
  21. yvpan1's Avatar
    Touch screen digitizers in this era of computing use very little power...maximum current consumption is probably on the order of micro amps when in use. And if all the device is doing is accepting gestures, it will use even less. You can argue over the subjective definition of "negligible" but the numbers are there.
    exactly. at first I agreed with the OP's opinion to switch the gestures off. i tried that on my Z but seems it didn't affect that much to the battery life either. the only difference was i could run the phone for an EXTRA 1 hour. for me, that isn't a significant improvement compared to the hassle i had to bear by keep pressing on the power button to wake the screen up which will (i hope it won't...) compromise the button in the future. so i switched it back on.

    come on, the basic of BB10 is that it's operated fully based on gestures and through gestures you navigate your phone. with regards to Papaguan's comment, i second that. digitisers nowadays consume just a small amount of power. yes it drains your battery, that's inevitable but if you streamline your way of using your phone, you'll feel that the difference is not too significant. in fact, it's negligible. the nature of BB10 which is a fully multitasking based OS is one of the things why the battery life is so-so.
    04-08-13 07:38 PM
  22. peter9477's Avatar
    I just tried an experiment to supplement a preliminary test I did yesterday with the gestures on and off. This time I left them on, but put the Z10 into a holster where the magnet would put it into standby. My hypothesis was that the BlackBerry engineers, being sensible types, would not have failed to disable the touch input when the device was in the holster.

    Data from yesterday:

    Gestures on: 4.4mA (average over ten two-minute samples, battery around 4.1V)

    Gestures off: 3.7mA (average over 13 samples, battery around 4.1V)

    Data from today:

    Gestures on, device holstered: 3.6mA (average over 24 samples, battery around 3.8V)

    Conclusion: the hypothesis is correct, and BB engineers are good at design. The wake-on-gesture support appears to be disabled when the device is holstered.
    Last edited by peter9477; 04-08-13 at 08:09 PM. Reason: remove unneeded verbiage :)
    04-08-13 07:58 PM
  23. oilgeo10's Avatar
    The magnets don't turn off the processor that waits for your input to unlock the screen when it's sitting in your pocket doing nothing. The unlock gesture is still active and waiting for your feed back as it drains battery.

    Posted via CB10
    IMHO, think the power use is minimal with the phone in standby and gesture active. I also have the pocket pouch and whether it affects battery savings or not I couldn't say, but it sure is convenient with not even needing a gesture. I even use it on my office desk with the Z10 out and on top of the BlackBerry logo /magnet, just pick it up and it activates. With Battery Guru on, it shows - 0.1 watts or less power right after picking it up, and usually more than 24 hours life remaining. That's with 4 - 6 app frames open, usually CB10. Also with an LTE cell setting on.

    The BB pouch provides some good protection too.

    Posted via CB10
    peter9477 likes this.
    04-08-13 08:03 PM
  24. Bdot-1's Avatar
    I've had it turned off for months.. i consistently get 12 hrs of battery unless I'm going heavy. I definitely noticed a difference when I turned gestures off. Gave me at least an extra hour

    Buddy and I went to the ball game, taking pics and vid all game. His Samsung Galaxy 3 died 7th inning. We both took them off charging same time that morning

    Posted via CB10
    04-08-13 08:10 PM
  25. Papaguan's Avatar
    I just tried an experiment to supplement a preliminary test I did yesterday with the gestures on and off. This time I left them on, but put the Z10 into a holster where the magnet would put it into standby. My hypothesis was that the BlackBerry engineers, being sensible types, would not have failed to disable the touch input when the device was in the holster.

    Data from yesterday:

    Gestures on: 4.4mA (average over ten two-minute samples, battery around 4.1V)

    Gestures off: 3.7mA (average over 13 samples, battery around 4.1V)

    Data from today:

    Gestures on, device holstered: 3.6mA (average over 24 samples, battery around 3.8V)

    Conclusion: the hypothesis is correct, and BB engineers are good at design. The wake-on-gesture support appears to be disabled when the device is holstered.
    I'm glad someone decided to actually take the time do an accurate observation! Looks like my estimate of gestures on contributing on the order of micro amps were not as accurate as I thought...though still technically correct. :P
    04-08-13 08:14 PM
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