04-18-13 07:46 PM
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  1. tlegend2012's Avatar
    Yeah, the 30 day thing should change and there are already work-arounds. It's odd, but doesn't take a lot of effort.

    I think you should be alarmed that your IT department is making a poor choice. Security should be the priority for a responsible law firm. On your phones you will be carrying around information that is private and important to your clients. With Android and even Apple, you are exposing yourself to easy malware attacks. BB10 offers the best in terms of security without exception. It's already good enough for the German government, and it will be the only front wave smartphone once it inevitably achieves British security clearance.

    Call your IT department as soon as possible and tell them to rethink their priorities. They're not doing their job.
    Yes, I agree. Security is important,but in a corporate environment , you can't just use a phone that's missing an important feature (Email retention) especially when the old blackberry phones have it.. users are not comfortable,( some users don't know about security, or not techy) but they love to see their old emails all the time! One question was brought up ( Can you think of any other phone that does have 30 days limitation issue?) they just think it's important, and it's a deal breaker..
    03-30-13 05:31 PM
  2. tlegend2012's Avatar
    Wtf? I can remote search if I need to.

    Posted via CB10
    Yea, What if you don't have signal in court room?
    03-30-13 05:38 PM
  3. imcurved's Avatar
    Do you reckon that it is deliberate though? For BBRY to set it as max 30 days in its initial software release, so as to isolate email managment, to see how the other apps and native functions co-exist and operate? I would imagine that one the Z10 hoards more emails, more photos, more apps, more videos etc, the speed of the Z10 could be compromised.
    Hmm you brought up a good point.

    Post via CB10
    03-30-13 05:47 PM
  4. imz's Avatar
    Or use blackberry travel app for travel info
    Or print to go
    My company just turned down Z10 because of the 30 day email option-img_00000256.png

    Posted via CB10
    2cats1dog likes this.
    03-30-13 06:16 PM
  5. Mr.Willie's Avatar
    Yea, What if you don't have signal in court room?
    You should come to court prepared Ask for a recess. But of course one is not going to have print outs of relevant information in court, are they ? And on top of that the only thing they are going to have is a smart phone right ? "Here your honor, look at my phone screen, the evidence is right here."

    Again, for realistic situations, there is Evernote. Also people are complaining like they don't also use a desktop or workstation that has their dearly beloved 10,000 plus emails on it.
    Supa_Fly1 and Omnitech like this.
    03-30-13 06:37 PM
  6. mset's Avatar
    Corporate record keeping _should_ be subject to a records management and document retention policy. This is covered in the rules to the International Standards Organization and overarching policy is contained in ISO 9001-4.2.4.
    It's fascinating how completely a few guys in here are missing the point. Citing ISO standards has exactly nothing to do with the user experience of a huge mixed swath of Z10 users - personal and small business users.

    1. Small business/sole proprietorship doesn't have dedicated 'records management and document retention' protocols or expensive software to perform such functions. Yes, we understand that Accenture and Lang Michener should have these things. In fact they probably do.

    2. What is BBRY's overriding plan with their new phones? To take personal user market share from Apple and Samsung. To do this, they have to provide functionality that people have become used to. Gmail has caused a situation in which people use their Gmail account as a Document Management system. What's the rationale behind depriving people of this?

    3. The fact that they're allegedly fixing this flaw later this year tells you what you need to know. Lets see if that means 'later this year' in the Playbook sense, i.e. maybe next year.
    Last edited by mset; 03-30-13 at 06:50 PM.
    03-30-13 06:38 PM
  7. Mr.Willie's Avatar
    <Snip> Gmail has caused a situation in which people use their Gmail account as a Document Management system. What's the rationale behind depriving people of this?
    Just because people have the ability to do it, doesn't make it the right way or the best way to do things.
    Supa_Fly1 likes this.
    03-30-13 06:43 PM
  8. mset's Avatar
    Just because people have the ability to do it, doesn't make it the right way or the best way to do things.
    Theory is a beautiful thing. I got my fill of it in University, though. I prefer to operate in the real world
    currentodysseys and JeepBB like this.
    03-30-13 06:44 PM
  9. rider997's Avatar
    I could live with 30 days of email if the z10 would let me search on the server like my iphone does.

    Example: Got an email with a hotel reservation 2 months ago. Placed it in a separate IMAP folder which is pretty much empty (like 5 email). Now on the bb I can't access that information because it is over 30 days old and I can't even do a remote server search for it. That is what I consider a deal breaker.

    I understand that some of you have the option to search the server. But it doesn't work for my IMAP account and it doesn't work for a lot of other people.


    Posted via CB10

    Absolutely! I could have written that entire message.







    Posted via CB10
    03-30-13 08:08 PM
  10. 2cats1dog's Avatar
    I also don't understand why email history beyond 30 days is a huge problem when you can pull it fro, the server. Or is there some problem where you have to be able to look up old emails when you are not connected, like on a flight or something?
    I like to spend time at the cottage, and at a farm in rural Ontario ... neither location gets more than 1bar of cell service (often no signal at all) and neither location has internet. With my previous BB, I was able to get lots of work done without a laptop because I had several yrs of email stored in my phone. (ie: I could research client's previous orders). I have also attended meetings & trade shows in buildings of a major city, which have dead zones. So it will be frustrating to search information on a server when there is little/no availability of signal.

    It might not be as bad if we were at least able to SAVE important msgs to the device ... i.e., plane tickets purchased 6wks prior to flight. But they can't be saved in the email folder, on the memory card, or in the remember app.

    Another thought - When travelling, does all this searching occur "roaming data" charges?
    03-30-13 08:28 PM
  11. ItnStln's Avatar
    I have seen post after post lamenting the lack of more than 30 days of email retention. I never felt the need to respond because it was always individuals. Now someone is claiming it's a corporate decision. I have to weigh in here. If there is documentation field reps need to keep up on orders, history, or accounts, the LAST place you want your archives and information stored is email. Where is your document management and retention system? Where is your CRM? This is not the job of any mobile platform. This is not the job of any email server. There is a reason there are CRM and document management systems. Email is just a communications medium, not document management and retention. Microsoft Sharepoint is but one of many solutions. Google Docs is another of many alternatives.

    If an email is 4 days old it's old news to me. If it was important it's retained in other more manageable mediums.
    Great point actually. I keep all of my older "important" emails in Dropbox as a PDF.
    03-30-13 08:39 PM
  12. pandapurple's Avatar
    I like that the mods have changed the title. Thank you.

    Posted via CB10
    03-30-13 08:47 PM
  13. BigBallsB's Avatar
    This is nice to know thanks for the heads up. This is the first time I have heard about this pretty major flaw. I hope there is a fix in the works for this.
    03-30-13 08:52 PM
  14. 2cats1dog's Avatar
    Again, for realistic situations, there is Evernote. Also people are complaining like they don't also use a desktop or workstation that has their dearly beloved 10,000 plus emails on it.
    The 30day limitation also applies to email saved in Evernote (aka: remember) ... it erases on day 31. (although it may not be the case if the email was saved on a computer into Evernote, which syncs to BB). In which case, you are still dependant on the computer to organize the BB.

    I was able to go on vacation WITHOUT dragging along my laptop, my torch carried everything I would need to help a client resolve their issue. The way the Z10 is currently set up - I'd need to bring the laptop, or request their issue wait until I return to the office.

    At the advice of another CBF member, I'm about to attempt sideloading K9 to store my email archive on the Z10.
    03-30-13 08:55 PM
  15. ItnStln's Avatar
    Or print to go
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	145532

    Posted via CB10
    Is this similar to "Print to PDF?"
    03-30-13 09:29 PM
  16. Gnomesane's Avatar
    EAS allows for remote search on server; you don't need BES10 for that.
    Okay, thanks. I think the person I was talking to (a few weeks or more ago) referenced BES giving you that ability but good to know it works with EAS (maybe that's what he meant, or I'm remembering incorrectly). Anyway, thanks. Cheers.
    03-30-13 10:33 PM
  17. rotorwrench's Avatar
    I understand it being an issue for some, but at my company we've never been allowed more than 30 days of email on our BBs for security reasons. We're allowed to keep them on the network but not any mobile devices. If there's data or info we absolutely need to keep or access for longer we move it into a document. We will be transitioning as soon as the Q is available.
    03-30-13 11:10 PM
  18. currentodysseys's Avatar
    Corporate record keeping _should_ be subject to a records management and document retention policy. This is covered in the rules to the International Standards Organization and overarching policy is contained in ISO 9001-4.2.4.


    In reviewing the matter on the internet, I note many important organisations have a set policy on document retention and disposal. This is not BB fanboyiism, this is guidance driven by best practices internationally. It could very well be that BB took into account best practices when they designed the Z10. Obviously, not everyone is into best practices, so BB will implement the minor change in their e-mail software to go beyond 30 day retention on the phone.

    Again, any business so disorganised as to not bother with a decent records management system other than holding on to thousands of e-mails on employees' phones cannot be very effective at what they do. Sort of reminds me of the shoebox accounting system for small businesses with a high-tech solution for management of the shoebox.

    If individuals like to keep all their old personal e-mails on a phone, it is their choice. I don't think that was the primary focus of BB though. Their published marketing material focuses on people on the move who need to be kept up to date, not as as a solution to the cluttered.
    I do not consider that your argumentation is because of fanboysm but I do believe you are wrong in your argument structure, with my best intentions and all due respect I say that.

    To begin with you name-call on organizations using the ISO argument and connecting this to BB's deciding factors in designing the phone? If this is so, I would most definitely like to see some proof to that, I d be surprised if this is the logic of the phone design behind it.

    Secondly, you mention: "Sensitive and important material could not be kept on personal devices and such e-mails had to be encrypted on official devices": the fact that the phone is encrypted (one of the best encryptions actually) and locked + remotely accessible and wiped out if need IS as secure as it gets (you might agree that even top US gov servers have been hacked into right?). Or you perceive that for instance the German government issued Z10 are personal devices with government top secret documents and comunications (eg. Merkel has a Z10 where she receives emails). The fact that a sensitive data email enters her phone from day 1 to day 30, does it not constitute keeping sensitive and important material on her mobile during this period?

    EDIT-->(This is why protocols of email handling exist and it is up to correct use and responsibility of the user to comply with IT relevant regulations of their organisation. To cap any feature is to ENFORCE this procedure, which leads to its reason being lack of trust that the members of such organisation would always comply with the IT and Tech regulations of use of electronic devices. If -and there should be- such regulation exists, then the how it is implemented is another issue but we cannot assume that all organizations need to cap features to ensure the policy being correctly implemented, no?).

    With all due respect, if you want to talk 4.2.4 lets understand it a bit better:

    ISO 9001-4.2.4 is about Quality Management Sysyem (QMS) correct? and the section 4.2.4 refers to creation of a record.

    Now as the manual states: "All the documents that form part of the QMS have to be controlled in accordance with clause 4.2.3 of ISO 9001:2008, or, for the particular case of records, according to clause 4.2.4."

    So, first thing to note here is that: If a document (email for our example) does not constitute part part of the QMS, for example a reference email, or task specific email that the individual handler considers needs to keep on file until process is terminated, for their personal reference, that document may NOT be part of the QMS record and thus not form part of what you mention but still the user might need to keep that for more than 30 days while compliant with ISO standards, provided that the document gets destroyed after its usability has terminated.

    What is a record according to ISO: (See definition here: http://www.praxiom.com/iso-definition.htm#Record - definition removed per request from copyright owner.)

    There are other kind of records that are not part of the QMS necessarily and these would be emails that are to be disregarded, trashed, after their use has been fulfilled. But you are quick to assume that one month or even one year is a period that you can determine as valid for non QMS records endurance and stainability. There are companies and people that function in other areas, that have other needed standards that come out of the peculiarity of their nature of business. So, operational records of messages that are not relevant to the QMS and thus not part of the ISO record ARE possible to be maintained by employees, in order to be able to handle their daily operations more effectively. Those use to be called "personal" records (in a professional capacity).

    Best practice denotes the QMS based on the company operations. The individual manager or exec in a company also maintains, many a time, a record for his/her professional use, that is not directly related to the company activity and thus no part of the QMS record. Eg, contacts management (apart from CRM, as I am referring to the professional network that an individual brings as added value to their job, and networking or interaction of professional nature with peers etc. Maybe there are emails that are related to the contact and network management that you want to keep on your phone as a user.

    Finally, BB has created a phone specifically to extend its demographics. That means that the phone is not designed to only be adressed to the business users but rather as a personal phone as well. Even on professional capacity there is personal email accounts and messages on ones phone (especially in BB the two may also be separated by business/personal separation software!). So the person as an individual phone user has the right to choose what emails to keep or delete on their phone, it is that simple.

    Idividual users (a 20 y.o student for instance) do not use ISO standards anyway and maybe they want to keep their boyfriend's or girlfriend' s email on their phone for a gazillion years so as to read how much "they missed them that time" over and over again, it may be called cheesy or beautiful, or plain obsessive or a natural behaviour and we can talk all we want about it but still they as users have the right to be able to do this if they choose to on THEIR phone (once you purchase it it belongs to YOU and you have the right to decide how to use the phone and how to store your messages. It is the user's choice and responsibility).

    Also, if RIM had ISO standards strictly in mind when designing the phones features, then the transfer of contacts would not have to be over the cloud, since this for some areas is considered a potential threat of sensitive data compromise. The very details of contacts list is sensitive data in some cases, so you suggest this should not be kept on the phones either?

    My post solely aims in discussing once again that we can aim to excuse this on BB using ISO or whatever other parameter you can choose to present here but still it is self evident that the limitation on 30 days is against the way people use their phones and is harming RIM.
    Last edited by currentodysseys; 03-31-13 at 04:43 AM.
    mset and Supa_Fly1 like this.
    03-31-13 04:08 AM
  19. micfaust's Avatar
    Just to consider...

    The old blackberries will sync forever in the past BUT regularly you get only 2kb chunks onto the device and it will load more chunks on request whereas the new system syncs the complete mail, which makes for me no sense to carry on my mobile years of emails.



    Posted via CB10
    03-31-13 04:09 AM
  20. gjohnsto's Avatar
    Just to consider...

    The old blackberries will sync forever in the past BUT regularly you get only 2kb chunks onto the device and it will load more chunks on request whereas the new system syncs the complete mail, which makes for me no sense to carry on my mobile years of emails.



    Posted via CB10
    This is an interesting point, and I think it suggests there is room for a hybrid solution (say after 30 days the text of an email is stored, but contact with the email service would be required to see whole emails thereafter).

    Posted via CB10
    03-31-13 04:25 AM
  21. OpelBlitz's Avatar
    I've never been in a courthouse that allowed cell phones with cameras.

    You should come to court prepared Ask for a recess. But of course one is not going to have print outs of relevant information in court, are they ? And on top of that the only thing they are going to have is a smart phone right ? "Here your honor, look at my phone screen, the evidence is right here."

    Again, for realistic situations, there is Evernote. Also people are complaining like they don't also use a desktop or workstation that has their dearly beloved 10,000 plus emails on it.
    03-31-13 04:25 AM
  22. qbnkelt's Avatar
    If you are in a position of influence, you need to go in there and test Lumia's keyboard. IT also won't want to make a decision that would get a barage of criticism from the business users.

    Posted via CB10
    You can't use the keyboard as the selling point when only 30 days of email are available. It will be a "So What" moment from my director...completely unrelated.

    Posted via CB10
    JeepBB likes this.
    03-31-13 04:26 AM
  23. currentodysseys's Avatar
    I understand it being an issue for some, but at my company we've never been allowed more than 30 days of email on our BBs for security reasons. We're allowed to keep them on the network but not any mobile devices. If there's data or info we absolutely need to keep or access for longer we move it into a document. We will be transitioning as soon as the Q is available.
    No doubt your company is not the only one with this policy in practice and this is highly understandable, the point here is that the phone should be giving all options to the variety of user types that it address as a potential choice of mobile phone.

    Then your IT for example should (and if I am not mistaken is while in BES -please do let me know as my knowledge on BES parameters is limited) set parameters and not allow the user to use the more than 30 days period on their phone for retention of emails?
    03-31-13 04:27 AM
  24. Supa_Fly1's Avatar
    30 Days Limitation!!!! I showed them the workarounds and they said you can't be looking up things while you're in court, or hearings!

    we're talking about 1500 Z10s!
    I can't believe that blackberry left something like that...
    ^ That doesn't sound right at all - I'll have to read this thread beyond the first page but some things come to mind:

    1. Did they only consider ActiveSync for use?
    2. Did they try only with Mobile Fusion or get some free trial CALs to test with BES10 being implemented?
    3. Did they look to see if this option was changeable by default being on BES10 or even enabled via a particular IT Policy?!
    4. Did the IT Director look if there is a solution on blackberry.com/btsc site or contact their RIM representative directly?

    Without all of these stated as being exhausted I call a) bull or b) uninformed and biased decision process.

    PS: Even with retained emails beyond 30 days you're STILL SEARCHING for an email in a court case or anywhere else within a smartphone. So that line sounds like an ***** spitting out verbatim he/she read on a website.

    EDIT: Send a note to their exchange administrator - find out if on Exchange 2010 and see these two articles ...

    http://btsc.webapps.blackberry.com/b...ListHelperImpl

    http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/l...xchg.141).aspx

    of particular
    Include past e-mail items Use this drop-down list to select the date range of e-mail items to synchronize to the mobile phone. The available options include the following: All, One Day, Three Days, One Week, Two Weeks, and One Month. If you have to specify other options, use the Shell to configure this setting.
    Last edited by Supa_Fly1; 03-31-13 at 04:43 AM. Reason: Specific ActiveSync Documentation on 30Days Email limitation
    currentodysseys and Omnitech like this.
    03-31-13 04:38 AM
  25. Supa_Fly1's Avatar
    Or use blackberry travel app for travel info.

    As to the OP, You can use remote server search, so as some others have said, not seeing the big issue.....dunno

    Posted via CB10 from my awesome Z10
    Remote Search is also limited to 30 days on ActiveSync by default on Z10. Good thinking though. Unfortunately a LOT of lawyers don't rely on Subject/content within the email as often as using 'Cabinet' or a filing system and retrieving emails by converstation via person searches.

    Since a 'filing system' by nature is heavily used by many in corporate business, this means these folders are not enabled initially for folder redirection and thus remote search function doesn't work - even if enabled afterwards.
    03-31-13 04:57 AM
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