[BBUK14]

I frankly don't think this Chen guy has a clear picture of what happened in the last year.

It's not that people aren't accepting how good the Z10 & Z30 are. It's that people don't know what the Z10 & Z30 are.

It's been shown, just on these forums, over and over, how poorly these phones have been marketed in the U.S. Poorly marketed by carriers, retailers, and by BlackBerry itself.

People in the States that don't believe that just need to do a little experiment. Go to your place of work, or gym, or wherever you can strike up conversations with people. Ask 5 or 10 random people if they know that BlackBerry released two fully touchscreen phones last year. I don't even need to feel iffy when I say that 99.9% of the people that try it will find that NO ONE they ask will have the slightest clue what the Z10 & 30 are.

The answer isn't turning away from what is clearly the vast majority of their potential customers, in favour of hoping to grow in what is an ever shrinking segment of those that prefer physical keyboards.

The answer is keep developing touchscreen devices as well, ensure you're putting out a reliable device of high quality, produce less, market better.

Visit Geek Lite C00123875

There is a lot of truth in that. Even over here in the UK, most people still have never heard of BlackBerry 10. This is why it is a mistake to say that the Z10 flopped, for example. For it to have flopped, people would have had to know about it and not like it. The truth is that BlackBerry management flopped. Just like the Z30 (although not as badly) it was released into a marketing void. The only people to even hear if it were analysts and BlackBerry fans.

Posted via CB10

[Cavi Mike]

the main reason BlackBerry got themselves in this mess was not moving to the full screens.

Not even close. There were full-screen BB's out before. BB just didn't really fit into the whole "app" thing. BB fell off because they started pumping out way too many devices. Before the 8800, they came out with a new device every year maybe? And they were all really well built devices as well. Then they just started pumping out masses of devices - like 5 a year or more - and they were all half-assed rubbish. Cheaply made, keypads sucked, trackballs/pads were finicky, OS's full of bugs - it was a nightmare. THAT is why BB fell off. They tried so hard to make something that pleased everyone and all they ended up doing was pissing everyone off.

[BBUK14]

Not even close. There were full-screen BB's out before. BB just didn't really fit into the whole "app" thing. BB fell off because they started pumping out way too many devices. Before the 8800, they came out with a new device every year maybe? And they were all really well built devices as well. Then they just started pumping out masses of devices - like 5 a year or more - and they were all half-assed rubbish. Cheaply made, keypads sucked, trackballs/pads were finicky, OS's full of bugs - it was a nightmare. THAT is why BB fell off. They tried so hard to make something that pleased everyone and all they ended up doing was pissing everyone off.

You obviously cannot really count the torch. I'm talking about touch screen phones with BlackBerry 10, a proper OS.

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[GadgetTravel]

There is a lot of truth in that. Even over here in the UK, most people still have never heard of BlackBerry 10. This is why it is a mistake to say that the Z10 flopped, for example. For it to have flopped, people would have had to know about it and not like it. The truth is that BlackBerry management flopped. Just like the Z30 (although not as badly) it was released into a marketing void. The only people to even hear if it were analysts and BlackBerry fans.

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If it was that great people would have heard of it.

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[RubberChicken76]

Did they port these games from other BB devices or from IOS/Droid?

IOS/Android for sure. BlackBerry 10 and PlayBook OS support common game libraries. This often means that porting can be done quickly. Don't think BlackBerry OS does, but I could be wrong.

[BBUK14]

If it was that great people would have heard of it.

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How?

I don't think that argument makes sense. You are essentially saying that advertising isn't important. Billions and billions of dollars a year spent by thousands of top companies stand against your statement.

On top of that, almost everyone who actually uses a Z10 or Z30 speaks highly of it from my personal observation.

If people knew about it, tried it, and hated it, that would be a different story.

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[BBUK14]

If it was that great people would have heard of it.

Posted via the Android CrackBerry App!

What would your comment be on the Z30 winning best phone for blogging at CES in Vegas? That's a perfect example of a great phone no one has heard of. Or are the folks at Wired secret BlackBerry 'fanboys'?

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[GadgetTravel]

What would your comment be on the Z30 winning best phone for blogging at CES in Vegas? That's a perfect example of a great phone no one has heard of. Or are the folks at Wired secret BlackBerry 'fanboys'?

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Not that many people want a phone for blogging at CES.

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[maclaskey]

He is only saying that BlackBerry identity and brand is all about qwerty keyboards. They will push it for differentiation from competitors. This is why you see BlackBerry suing the keyboard company funded by Seacrest. I have no doubt BlackBerry will have amazing all touch phones in the future. Maybe they will have a lower price point to capture markets with less cash than apple buyers and keep qwerty phones built by BlackBerry as the premium. I don't know, I'm sure BlackBerry will keep a mixed product line

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[BBUK14]

Not that many people want a phone for blogging at CES.

Posted via the Android CrackBerry App!

I'm having trouble figuring out if you are joking. Can you perhaps think to yourself of any other ways in which a phone that is good at high volume multitasking might be useful outside of Las Vegas?

If anyone else would like to help our friend figure this out, post some assistance.

Don't worry , Android friend, we are here to help.


Posted via CB10

[GadgetTravel]

I'm having trouble figuring out if you are joking. Can you perhaps think to yourself of any other ways in which a phone that is good at high volume multitasking might be useful outside of Las Vegas?

If anyone else would like to help our friend figure this out, post some assistance.

Don't worry , Android friend, we are here to help.


Posted via CB10

I am saying that the bottom line is that really great things get noticed. And by really great things I mean total packages. I haven't used Z30. I have been using blackberries since the RIM950. I bought a Q10 soon after they became available on Verizon. And I payed full price for it. A couple of weeks ago I decided I had enough in terms of the app situation and ordered a Moto X. I've been using it less than a week. Oh and by definition there are a lot more former BlackBerry users than current BlackBerry users

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[BBUK14]

I am saying that the bottom line is that really great things get noticed. And by really great things I mean total packages. I haven't used Z30. I have been using blackberries since the RIM950. I bought a Q10 soon after they became available on Verizon. And I payed full price for it. A couple of weeks ago I decided I had enough in terms of the app situation and ordered a Moto X. I've been using it less than a week. Oh and by definition there are a lot more former BlackBerry users than current BlackBerry users

Posted via the Android CrackBerry App!

I still don't think you have offered any compelling evidence that great products automatically get noticed. BlackBerry have faced highly unusual levels brand bashing by people who definitely have not ever seen a BlackBerry 10 phone. Salespeople in the shops have actively discouraged people from buying BlackBerry. You can?t simply throw away all other factors and claim that a great product will magically sell itself. That is just clearly not true.

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[GadgetTravel]

I still don't think you have offered any compelling evidence that great products automatically get noticed. BlackBerry have faced highly unusual levels brand bashing by people who definitely have not ever seen a BlackBerry 10 phone. Salespeople in the shops have actively discouraged people from buying BlackBerry. You can?t simply throw away all other factors and claim that a great product will magically sell itself. That is just clearly not true.

Posted via CB10

But why do those things happen, if they actually do at any large scale? People here have a very myopic view. Apple has gotten more bad publicity with many new releases than BlackBerry has gotten in total. Remember the antenna problem? That was a big story. Huge compared to any story about BlackBerry. But people still bought the phones in record numbers.

Why would salespeople tell puerile not to buy BlackBerry? Maybe they don't like processing returns? Most seem to admit that the very early release of BB10 devices had issues. That was a huge mistake. When I bought my Q10 I thought I could run android apps. Maybe sometime in 2014. Or 2015, sort of. People are used to using various apps. They need a super compelling reason to give that up and aren't seeing it.

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[SteveLawUK]

But why do those things happen, if they actually do at any large scale? People here have a very myopic view. Apple has gotten more bad publicity with many new releases than BlackBerry has gotten in total. Remember the antenna problem? That was a big story. Huge compared to any story about BlackBerry. But people still bought the phones in record numbers.

This is the power of brand awareness through advertising and hype. Apple have had various fairly major issues like the antenna or lack of features (it still makes me laugh that the early iPhones didn't do copy and paste) or things like iTunes removing all your music when connecting to a different computer. And there are lots of others.

People will happily shell out hundreds of pounds for a new model to fix problems that should have never have been there in the first place or to provide features that should. Or they spend hours being talked through fixes by the helpline and then they THANK Apple for fixing the problem. It's incredible.

And then BlackBerry have that one network issue a few years back and it almost kills the brand stone dead. Users left in droves and the media crucified them. I don't think they ever really recovered.

That's the power of advertising and branding.


Z10 | STL100-1 | 10.2.1.1925

[BBUK14]

The point I would wish to get across is that there are many, many factors which influence almost any product. Apple get away with mistakes because their marketing has been so brilliant that they have created an entire cultish culture around their product. I say that as a compliment to the management.

Think of Americanism. The US can commit all sorts of human rights violations, and consistently support, say, Israel, who have been illegally occupying another country and brutalising its native people for over forty years. Still, Americans think they live in a country that represents freedom and equality and the rest of it (i won't even get started in the hypocrisy of the UK). But if you can build a culture around a nation or a brand that connects deeply with people's emotions, they will ignore facts to a certain extent.

The BlackBerry thing is actually quite interesting. Basically, a 'BlackBerry is Dead' movement started, and built up quite a head of steam to the point that loads of people committed themselves to it. Once they had done that, they had an emotional connection to it, and when that happens people tend not to change their mind in the face of new evidence, but to dig their heals in and shout even louder. Yes, I do think this anti-BlackBerry stuff has been highly unusual, if not unique in brand perception over the last decade or more. BlackBerry have done foolish things, but the toxicity around the brand has been completely unwarranted.

Just consider: if someone owns a BlackBerry Z10, they often get jeers. If they own a low end android device, so one jeers. It isn't rational, but it's the case.

I won't go on forever, but I'm afraid their is just more to it than the quality of the product. The CES result isn't a huge deal, but it is certainly an example of the fact that the new BlackBerry phones are the real deal. Do the public know this? No. I've the last year, the public have been groomed to not even think about being positive about BB. A certainly tipping point was reached at which I don't think any phone with a BlackBerry logo on it would have sold, regardless if the quality.

Things will change this year though, watch. I an already seeing far more BlackBerry 10 phones around. The BlackBerry is dead thing is dying, and BBM will do a lot to repair the brand image. As hopeless as it has seemed, I think people will be surprised with how quickly the public will jump back on the BlackBerry brand once it is socially or culturally 'safe' to do so.

Posted via CB10

[BBUK14]

Forgive the typos...walking and typing in public...


Posted via CB10

[GadgetTravel]

This is the power of brand awareness through advertising and hype. Apple have had various fairly major issues like the antenna or lack of features (it still makes me laugh that the early iPhones didn't do copy and paste) or things like iTunes removing all your music when connecting to a different computer. And there are lots of others.

People will happily shell out hundreds of pounds for a new model to fix problems that should have never have been there in the first place or to provide features that should. Or they spend hours being talked through fixes by the helpline and then they THANK Apple for fixing the problem. It's incredible.

And then BlackBerry have that one network issue a few years back and it almost kills the brand stone dead. Users left in droves and the media crucified them. I don't think they ever really recovered.

That's the power of advertising and branding.


Z10 | STL100-1 | 10.2.1.1925

It isn't just branding and advertising. It's that they also do some things spectacularly well at Apple. Like customer service. And with the phone, apps and ecosystem there is a lot you can do with them. Their business isn't the phone, it's the mobile computing environment and they are selling that to people.

[SteveLawUK]

It isn't just branding and advertising. It's that they also do some things spectacularly well at Apple. Like customer service. And with the phone, apps and ecosystem there is a lot you can do with them. Their business isn't the phone, it's the mobile computing environment and they are selling that to people.

My daughter just got an iPhone for Christmas. She forgot the password. She took it to the nearest Apple shop. They gave her a phone number for support. She phoned support and hours later she had a wiped phone and a new Apple ID so she had to proceed to install and configure all her apps again. That's not very spectacular in my opinion (I've worked in IT support for nearly 15 years).

(Sadly she doesn't live with me and I only heard about it after the fact.)

Z10 | STL100-1 | 10.2.1.1925

[GadgetTravel]

My daughter just got an iPhone for Christmas. She forgot the password. She took it to the nearest Apple shop. They gave her a phone number for support. She phoned support and hours later she had a wiped phone and a new Apple ID so she had to proceed to install and configure all her apps again. That's not very spectacular in my opinion (I've worked in IT support for nearly 15 years).

(Sadly she doesn't live with me and I only heard about it after the fact.)

Z10 | STL100-1 | 10.2.1.1925

But good relative to what? I've had two iPhones replaced over the years got free and I just plugged the new one into my computer and restored it. Does BB even have customer service?

Posted via the Android CrackBerry App!

[SteveLawUK]

But good relative to what? I've had two iPhones replaced over the years got free and I just plugged the new one into my computer and restored it. Does BB even have customer service?

Posted via the Android CrackBerry App!

You said that they did customer service spectacularly well. My experience of it was different. So it's relative to me, just as your opinion is relative to you. However I would suggest that if it was truly "spectacular" then there wouldn't be an relative difference, it should be spectacular for everyone. I won't even go into the details of the nightmare of trying to set up and configure 100 iPads for use in a school, it both bores and annoys me just thinking about it, and it's still not finished. Suffice it to say that Apple provide the Apple Configurator that only runs on a Mac and goes about a third of the way towards solving some of the problems but Apple users gush over how great they are for providing it.

And yes, BlackBerry does have customer service. If you aren't being facetious then Google it. If you are then, "hahaha. Good one." *rolls eyes*. I could suggest that BlackBerry customer service isn't as visible because it isn't needed as much, but I won't...

Edit: mind you I think we're wandering away from the beaten thread.

[GadgetTravel]

You said that they did customer service spectacularly well. My experience of it was different. So it's relative to me, just as your opinion is relative to you. However I would suggest that if it was truly "spectacular" then there wouldn't be an relative difference, it should be spectacular for everyone. I won't even go into the details of the nightmare of trying to set up and configure 100 iPads for use in a school, it both bores and annoys me just thinking about it, and it's still not finished. Suffice it to say that Apple provide the Apple Configurator that only runs on a Mac and goes about a third of the way towards solving some of the problems but Apple users gush over how great they are for providing it.

And yes, BlackBerry does have customer service. If you aren't being facetious then Google it. If you are then, "hahaha. Good one." *rolls eyes*. I could suggest that BlackBerry customer service isn't as visible because it isn't needed as much, but I won't...

Edit: mind you I think we're wandering away from the beaten thread.

I suggest you read threads here about people trying to get service from BB. The general response is "call the carrier from what I have seen". The facts are that most people find Apple products easy to use and very user friendly. And yes, it is harder if you don't have a Mac, but that is their system. And it generally speaking makes things very easy on the user if they buy into the ecosystem.

[SteveLawUK]

I suggest you read threads here about people trying to get service from BB. The general response is "call the carrier from what I have seen".

I suspect that that is because Apple is so proprietary that they are they only ones able and willing to support their own products. And perhaps the majority of BlackBerry issues are, in fact, carrier related in some form. But they are there for the cases where the carrier isn't able help.

The fact that BlackBerrys can, and are, supported by the carriers is only a positive thing in my opinion. It keeps BlackBerry's overheads down for one thing, which helps keep quality and development higher and prices lower, to try and crowbar this back on thread a bit.

Z10 | STL100-1 | 10.2.1.1925

[GadgetTravel]

I suspect that that is because Apple is so proprietary that they are they only ones able and willing to support their own products. And perhaps the majority of BlackBerry issues are, in fact, carrier related in some form. But they are there for the cases where the carrier isn't able help.

The fact that BlackBerrys can, and are, supported by the carriers is only a positive thing in my opinion. It keeps BlackBerry's overheads down for one thing, which helps keep quality and development higher and prices lower, to try and crowbar this back on thread a bit.

Z10 | STL100-1 | 10.2.1.1925

The key falling off my Q10 wasn't carrier related. Your anecdotal experience side most people find Apple customer service to be exemplary.

And it isn't just customer service. They don't sell phones, they sell access to the whole ecosystem and they sell it at a premium price. It isn't for everyone, they have a small market share relative to android. But it is a very lucrative market share. And for people who buy into the whole thing it offers beautiful integration.

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[SteveLawUK]

The key falling off my Q10 wasn't carrier related. Your anecdotal experience side most people find Apple customer service to be exemplary. !

I hadn't realised you had talked to most Apple customers. That's impressive.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ap...m=122&ie=UTF-8

Incidentally, did the carrier fix your Q10 key? My carrier fixed a hardware issue I had with one of my Bolds some years back with a replacement phone. No charge.

[BBUK14]

Apple must be commended on their 'geniuses' and repair policy. It's a stroke of Jobsian genius. He has people actually praising Apple for their phones breaking it's brilliant.

Posted via CB10