03-23-14 08:34 AM
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  1. scott.deagan's Avatar
    "BB10 isn't an iPhone so why would it behave the same?" - seriously? A Nissan isn't a Ford, so they should behave differently too?

    The OP is talking about smooth scrolling and responsiveness - something that users expect and desire.
    05-21-13 10:24 AM
  2. scott.deagan's Avatar
    The OP asks a very valid question, and I'm surprise by the number of misleading answers here. The correct answer is the Z10 (BB10), while very smooth in some areas, is not smooth throughout. The reason for this is because Blackberry (in their infinite wisdom) decided to implement parts of the platform using Adobe Air. BIG MISTAKE! Anything that uses the Adobe Air runtime is not hardware accelerated, and hence "lags" (the correct word is actually "janks", but let's not split hairs, everyone knows what you mean). It results in a very slow refresh rate where, if there is something moving on the screen, the motion becomes "jerky" (instead of consistently smooth) because the frame cannot be redrawn in time. For a consistent 60 frames per second, you need to be able to draw a single frame in 16.6ms. If you cannot, you end up with "jank" (what most folks refer to as "lag").

    The BB10 platform exhibits such jank (lag) in many parts, including the browser. Some parts are buttery smooth - the native Contacts app is one such example. If you have many contacts (as I do), and you open the Contacts app and scroll, you'll notice it's pixel perfect. However, go into Settings > Display and then scroll and the story is very different - stuttery and jerky, very detrimental to the end-user experience.

    Unfortunately, it's a double whammy with the BB10. It also suffers from "lag". In this context, I'm talking about the delay between the time you move your finger and the UI responds. The BB10 lag on a Z10 can easily be seen by creating or using an app that includes a progress bar: quickly move the slider back and forth, and watch the handle play "catch up" with your finger.

    These are two very serious mistakes made by Blackberry. Why? Because they form a huge part of the end-user experience, and users are rarely able to articulate why they find the experience "ikky" (for want of a better word). They will, however, still form a very negative impression/evaluation of the device and will vote with their wallets. To launch a successful platform, you need to build a solid foundation, without which you are destined to fail. Blackberry didn't "go the extra mile" and took a number of shortcuts (rushed to market).

    I'm not a hater - I'm a BB10 developer (I love Qt/QML/Cascades) and the (not so proud) owner of a BB10 handset. I raced to the store the day the Z10 was released to purchase one. I honestly believed it was going to be buttery smooth and responsive (to the touch) throughout the platform, but I was wrong (and disappointed). Let's see how the new Jolla handset performs .
    Last edited by scott.deagan; 05-21-13 at 11:01 AM.
    donnation, Sergiu1337 and DJM626 like this.
    05-21-13 10:50 AM
  3. Nabooy's Avatar
    The OP asks a very valid question, and I'm surprise by the number of misleading answers here. The correct answer is the Z10 (BB10), while very smooth in some areas, is not smooth throughout. The reason for this is because Blackberry (in their infinite wisdom) decided to implement parts of the platform using Adobe Air. BIG MISTAKE! Anything that uses the Adobe Air runtime is not hardware accelerated, and hence "lags" (the correct word is actually "janks", but let's not split hairs, everyone knows what you mean). It results in a very slow refresh rate where, if there is something moving on the screen, the motion becomes "jerky" (instead of consistently smooth) because the frame cannot be redrawn in time. For a consistent 60 frames per second, you need to be able to draw a single frame in 16.6ms. If you cannot, you end up with "jank" (what most folks refer to as "lag").

    The BB10 platform exhibits such jank (lag) in many parts, including the browser. Some parts are buttery smooth - the native Contacts app is one such example. If you have many contacts (as I do), and you open the Contacts app and scroll, you'll notice it's pixel perfect. However, go into Settings > Display and then scroll and the story is very different - stuttery and jerky, very detrimental to the end-user experience.

    Unfortunately, it's a double whammy with the BB10. It also suffers from "lag". In this context, I'm talking about the delay between the time you move your finger and the UI responds. The BB10 lag on a Z10 can easily be seen by creating or using an app that includes a progress bar: quickly move the slider back and forth, and watch the handle play "catch up" with your finger.

    These are two very serious mistakes made by Blackberry. Why? Because they form a huge part of the end-user experience, and users are rarely able to articulate why they find the experience "ikky" (for want of a better word). They will, however, still form a very negative impression/evaluation of the device and will vote with their wallets. To launch a successful platform, you need to build a solid foundation, without which you are destined to fail. Blackberry didn't "go the extra mile" and took a number of shortcuts (rushed to market).

    I'm not a hater - I'm a BB10 developer (I love Qt/QML/Cascades) and the (not so proud) owner of a BB10 handset. I raced to the store the day the Z10 was released to purchase one. I honestly believed it was going to be buttery smooth and responsive (to the touch) throughout the platform, but I was wrong (and disappointed). Let's see how the new Jolla handset performs .
    Couldn't agree more with this guy. You, sir, are my new best friend from now on! I just can't believe the fact that BB have used Adobe Air somewhere. I mean, where they even serious to even think about it in the beginning? However, I really hope so that this will eventually fix this in the upcoming software updates.
    05-21-13 07:23 PM
  4. xBURK's Avatar
    Try an iPhone 5 or even the iPhone 4S and you'll understand what no lag whatsoever means. Just saying...
    The BB10 OS works, smoothness-wise, as something between a Samsung S3 and a Lumia 920. So somewhere between Android and WP8, where WP8 is pretty close to iOS.
    Well, I have tried them both. Hate to break it to you, but yes, they lag at times. My z10 is smooth as silk. Always...Just saying.......

    Posted via CB10
    05-21-13 07:29 PM
  5. Sergiu1337's Avatar
    Scott is right..!

    I really can't understand the false claims of users, why worship like this..

    The true fact: if you're coming from an iPhone 5 you will see a big difference in performance. Laggy adobe reader, poor performance on scroll in web browser, apps starts slower, etc. Heck, even when scrolling in cb app it lags in some topics.

    An advice: don't trust 100% what everyone is praising, you will be disappointed.

    @xburk you're just saying a lie (in the last part of the post). It's clearly you haven't used the iPhone 5 for a period of time.
    pankaler likes this.
    03-19-14 12:32 AM
  6. Hussain Karimi's Avatar
    Yes apps take a while to load. Not best performance wise. But at 18k in India it's the best deal. Easily beats Samsung at this price.

    Posted via CBZ10
    03-19-14 01:39 AM
  7. Sergiu1337's Avatar
    It's not only the apps loading time... but also the in-app performance, especially of those that are using webview...

    The actual price of z10 is good, but don't forget the initial price of the device. That was too much for this device.
    03-19-14 01:47 AM
  8. Thalestr's Avatar
    I've had zero issues with smoothness whatsoever. My android phone that I just came from had plenty, though!



    Posted via Z10
    03-19-14 02:04 AM
  9. Hussain Karimi's Avatar
    Initial price was far from practical given that the software one year back was pain in the ***.


    Posted via CBZ10
    03-19-14 04:21 AM
  10. bbrog's Avatar
    Sergiu 1337
    Are you trying to win some sort of Lazarus award?
    And you are aware of one of changes in the multiple updates since message you originally quoted was removing air from settings?


    Posted via CB10
    03-19-14 08:37 AM
  11. Sergiu1337's Avatar
    Dear bbrog, I want to put in light something that's not that commonly known by "outsiders": the raw performance of BB10 - I can read here is "BB10 rulzz", "Z10 is smooth as milk", etc. So I want to inform potential Z10 owners that BB10 is not quite that speedy as most people leave the impresion.

    What I'm remembering right now:
    • browser performance mediocre with many pages. the browser makes the phone hot, it consumes too much CPU. I got the battery empty in about 4 hours of internet via Wifi (in contrast, with iphone 5 - same on wifi - which runs cool (!!) I get about 5-6 hours of usage. don't forget the lower capacity of the battery too ).
    • apps loads slower. from alarm, calculator to bb world.
    • when trying to access an item from HUB you have to wait, sometimes seconds (depends on the app)
    • you get frequent transition animation lags
    • in app-performance sucks on some included apps: adobe reader, facebook... laggy and catchy scroll.
    • rotation takes a lot, it's not real time animation as on iOS. i think it takes as screenshot and rotates that, because when you are in a video, the image stops while the sound keeps going.


    And BTW, I have 10.2.1.2102. Is that an extremely old OS?

    Don't get me wrong, BB10 has lots of neat stuffs, but it's far far away from a smooth and complete experience. I like the hub, gestures, etc.
    03-19-14 11:27 AM
  12. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    Scott is right..!

    I really can't understand the false claims of users, why worship like this..

    The true fact: if you're coming from an iPhone 5 you will see a big difference in performance. Laggy adobe reader, poor performance on scroll in web browser, apps starts slower, etc. Heck, even when scrolling in cb app it lags in some topics.
    You also raise a good point subtly in that I think people have different definitions of "lag". For example, in terms of navigating the OS, I find my Z10 is generally quite snappy, but my iPod touch can be utterly miserable if more than a couple of app instances are open. Both my iPad and iPod can also be miserable in app to respond to button presses when there's another process happening. For example, opening App Store and triggering updates or launching the browser and changing the URL when a page is loading is atrocious for me On the other hand, my iOS devices tend to load apps much quicker and the minimizing app views on iOS devices is sometimes a little slicker.

    Generally, my iPad mini, my 4S and my Z10 are snappy compared to other devices I've had - Torch, iPod Touch, PlayBook with certain AIR apps - had a habit of being sluggish to respond.
    03-19-14 02:22 PM
  13. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    . So I want to inform potential Z10 owners that BB10 is not quite that speedy as most people leave the impresion.
    I share some of the experiences, but not others.


    [*]browser performance mediocre with many pages
    .

    This I don't find. Generally I find it is a bit faster than my iPad and iPhone. And tons faster than my Touch.

    [*]apps loads slower. from alarm, calculator to bb world.
    I definitely agree here. Apps in general take longer to load. Not sure if the runtime has a lot to do here that's handled at startup on iOS but it's pretty typical to wait. App Store also does a great job indexing the search, whereas BlackBerry loads.

    The one area where the App Store is a pain for me is how it slows the device to a crawl when there are a lot of Apps to update. On some of my devices, the whole app store can become unresponsive. Especially on my iPod Touch. Ugh

    [*]when trying to access an item from HUB you have to wait, sometimes seconds (depends on the app)
    Definitely had this, but it's intermittent for me. Strangely with some apps and not all the time.

    [*]you get frequent transition animation lags
    I have got this also, but not frequent for me. Usually it gets fretted by an OS update.

    [*]in app-performance sucks on some included apps: adobe reader, facebook... laggy and catchy scroll.
    Facebook I find miserable at loading content on all my devices including my Kindle and my Z10 and my iOS devices. I can't brag about any of them because I kind of hate all of them for this. :-)
    Sergiu1337 likes this.
    03-19-14 02:31 PM
  14. Sergiu1337's Avatar
    @RubberChicken76 thanks for your honest and unbiased reply.

    I don't know how the 4s does work.. the iphone 5 is my first iphone. And it does offer a general smooth experience. Yes, is still lags from time to time, but nowhere near as z10.

    Regarding the browser performance, can you make the following test please?
    - load BlackBerry 10 OS - BlackBerry Forums at CrackBerry.com
    - scroll the page faster and slowly
    - chose a topic
    - scroll in topic

    Can you see the difference between the scrolling performance? On the page with topics list you got a slightly constant hook for about 0.1-0.3 seconds, making a jerky (laggy) scrolling..*

    Also writing on the web browser is a pain. Scrolling on the textarea (text box) is laggy and the input has a slight delay and sometimes I have to restart browser to have decent delay (happened after i've pasted a link in the text box).
    03-19-14 02:59 PM
  15. DigitalMadness's Avatar
    @RubberChicken76 thanks for your honest and unbiased reply.

    I don't know how the 4s does work.. the iphone 5 is my first iphone. And it does offer a general smooth experience. Yes, is still lags from time to time, but nowhere near as z10.

    Regarding the browser performance, can you make the following test please?
    - load BlackBerry 10 OS - BlackBerry Forums at CrackBerry.com
    - scroll the page faster and slowly
    - chose a topic
    - scroll in topic

    Can you see the difference between the scrolling performance? On the page with topics list you got a slightly constant hook for about 0.1-0.3 seconds, making a jerky (laggy) scrolling..*

    Also writing on the web browser is a pain. Scrolling on the textarea (text box) is laggy and the input has a slight delay and sometimes I have to restart browser to have decent delay (happened after i've pasted a link in the text box).
    I think the jerky scrolling that you are experiencing might be caused by the content of the topic page. Each topic contain multiple links to other pages, sometimes your finger gets tripped up by it.
    03-19-14 04:50 PM
  16. Profeshnal Songvriter's Avatar
    I have experienced a little lag aswell , but i think its just how the software works ... For example i remember when i had my iphone 3g , if id scroll anything up or down , or scroll left and right at the icons screen , id get a pretty fast movement. As quick as id put my finger on the iphone the thing which was on display would move with the finger. On the other hand , placing a finger on z10 makes the things on the display kinda...'follow' the finger .. Like there is a 0.3-4 ms lag.
    03-19-14 08:20 PM
  17. SirJes's Avatar
    I'll be the bias, in denial, lying dishonest guy here and say, I experience no lag


    But I'm a liar so...u know

    Posted via CB10
    grover5 and rolojr1 like this.
    03-19-14 08:47 PM
  18. grover5's Avatar
    Scott is right..!

    I really can't understand the false claims of users, why worship like this..

    The true fact: if you're coming from an iPhone 5 you will see a big difference in performance. Laggy adobe reader, poor performance on scroll in web browser, apps starts slower, etc. Heck, even when scrolling in cb app it lags in some topics.

    An advice: don't trust 100% what everyone is praising, you will be disappointed.

    @xburk you're just saying a lie (in the last part of the post). It's clearly you haven't used the iPhone 5 for a period of time.
    I've used the 5c and my Z10 and I have no idea what you're talking about. Don't mislead people. The Z10 is incredibly smooth. It's brilliant actually.

    Posted via CB10
    rolojr1 likes this.
    03-19-14 08:50 PM
  19. grover5's Avatar
    @RubberChicken76 thanks for your honest and unbiased reply.

    I don't know how the 4s does work.. the iphone 5 is my first iphone. And it does offer a general smooth experience. Yes, is still lags from time to time, but nowhere near as z10.

    Regarding the browser performance, can you make the following test please?
    - load BlackBerry 10 OS - BlackBerry Forums at CrackBerry.com
    - scroll the page faster and slowly
    - chose a topic
    - scroll in topic

    Can you see the difference between the scrolling performance? On the page with topics list you got a slightly constant hook for about 0.1-0.3 seconds, making a jerky (laggy) scrolling..*

    Also writing on the web browser is a pain. Scrolling on the textarea (text box) is laggy and the input has a slight delay and sometimes I have to restart browser to have decent delay (happened after i've pasted a link in the text box).
    It looks like unbiased means someone agrees with your bizarre assessment.

    Posted via CB10
    03-19-14 08:52 PM
  20. Jerale's Avatar
    The videos I tend to have watched always had BlackBerry's using 10.0 on the Z10 and 10.2 on the Z30 which are both outdated software. Things have actually gotten a lot better ever since. With 10.2.1 I find that the browser is actually more smoother than before. I haven't witnessed any lag.

    Powered by my BlackBerry (Z10). Join my #BBM Channels C001227CF, C00476C37, C003829C9, C002454C9,C002190AC, C00120CE3
    rolojr1 likes this.
    03-19-14 09:06 PM
  21. SirJes's Avatar
    D_march...u liar

    Posted via CB10
    03-19-14 09:06 PM
  22. Sergiu1337's Avatar
    @DigitalMadness if I fast flick, no hover is being made on the links. I have tested the scrolling on that page on galaxy s2 (with cm 11) and iphone 5. Both where scrolling smoothly! But on z10 I have a slight constant 'catch'.

    @Profeshnal Songvriter, no, that's not normal... the page feels heavy.. the laggy scroll is present (sometimes worse) on multiple heavy pages.

    @SirJes, @Jerale have you conducted the test explained above? It has to be done with the browser directly! Not in cb, etc. To me the difference is easily visible.

    @D_March I am misleading the people or you are? I have all 3 phones side by side and can see clearly that z10 lags on 'not that heavy' pages! Have you tested that page in the browser, and not in the CB app? If no, thanks for another fanboy defensive post. And no, it's not a bizzare assessment, I am using the browser a lot on mobiles, and clearly notice the browser performance. It's not only the laggy/shacky scroll, the browser also redraw slower on fast flick on certain pages.
    Heh, z10 is incredible smooth but apps loads as on symbian with poor hardware , and you get nice effects too when you are browsing pdfs in acrobat reader . What can I say..

    ..It seems many people have different perception for lag..
    Last edited by Sergiu1337; 03-20-14 at 03:18 AM.
    03-20-14 03:06 AM
  23. bbrog's Avatar
    Sergiu I have no doubt that you believe that you feel there are some issues, I just found it bizarre that you tacked it to the end of a thread that was last updated in May last year. I also thought that agreeing with somebody, who raised specific, well documented issues that have since been corrected by updates was slightly disingenuous. It would have made more sense to me to just open a new thread

    Posted via CB10
    rolojr1 likes this.
    03-20-14 05:05 PM
  24. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    @RubberChicken76 thanks for your honest and unbiased reply.

    I don't know how the 4s does work.. the iphone 5 is my first iphone. And it does offer a general smooth experience. Yes, is still lags from time to time, but nowhere near as z10.

    Regarding the browser performance, can you make the following test please?
    - load BlackBerry 10 OS - BlackBerry Forums at CrackBerry.com
    - scroll the page faster and slowly
    - chose a topic
    - scroll in topic

    Can you see the difference between the scrolling performance? On the page with topics list you got a slightly constant hook for about 0.1-0.3 seconds, making a jerky (laggy) scrolling..*

    Also writing on the web browser is a pain. Scrolling on the textarea (text box) is laggy and the input has a slight delay and sometimes I have to restart browser to have decent delay (happened after i've pasted a link in the text box).
    Yep... definitely saw it in the topics view, not so much in the thread. I noticed that on my device it acts like it wants to copy as you scroll. Don't see this on other forums I visit.

    Posted via CB10
    03-20-14 06:47 PM
  25. Sergiu1337's Avatar
    @bbrog well, i've expected a perfect browser (because people praised the browser and bb10 smoothness) and was disappointed that the performance is nowhere near to iphone 5. Then I've searched a topic talking about this and posted. I knew that blackberry were using adobe air for some components, but didn't know they ditched it out..
    And the performance problem remains. I didn't want to start a new topic, I would be blamed more since I'm the new guy and many protect their phones and get attacked..

    @RubberChicken76 exactly.
    BlackBerry needs more software optimizations. The device get warn with light usage (now 36 deg celsius). I've used the browser and Notes (android app) for about 15 minutes and i've lost 8% battery..
    pankaler likes this.
    03-21-14 02:05 AM
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