[Roo Zilla]

RIM must follow in Googles footsteps with the Nexus 4 (a phone which is taking the uk by storm) as its only �250 sim free - let's be honest, to the general public BB10 needs to capture these customers, they will NOT capture iOs owners so stay away from their proce point.

Wait til next summer. There are going to be multiple high end handsets available from the likes of makers like Xiaomi, Huawei, and Lenovo available in E5 that will hit that price point and lower.

[Patrick Mcd]

Wait til next summer. There are going to be multiple high end handsets available from the likes of makers like Xiaomi, Huawei, and Lenovo available in E5 that will hit that price point and lower.

Exactly! A few weeks ago Huawei were in Westfield Shopping centre demo'ing their handset, looks good...

Tech hardware is a fast moving market, I hope they have got their parts at a good price, allowing as low as possible build price. (Yes they need to make profit, but this relies heavily on buying the right parts, at the right price)

The bulk of the market is �250-�400 'Smart Phones' which is why the Nexus is selling out so fast! IPhone can and will always charge a premium, let's stop using them as a comparison.

Please BB - Please target this sector, anything else is suicide!

[Roo Zilla]

Prices of $299 or $399 are unrealistic, they need to actually make money on the hardware because they are not a google or amazon who are happy to sell stuff at cost due to most of their revenue coming from elsewhere.

There are about 4-5 Chinese manufacturers who are targeting E5 in 2013 to introduce their products. Typical high end Android phone with quad core S4 Pro, 8MP camera, etc., etc., will sell for about $350 or less. These guys are all making money on hardware. Phones aren't that expensive to make. For example, the base iPhone 5 costs about $200 to make. Nokia has stated their Lumia line costs about 160 Euros to make. The teardown for the 9900 was about $180. Of course those prices are for hardware only, you need to factor in cost of payments to various patent holders and such. The simple fact that Xiaomi and multiple other vendors can sell a phone comparable to N4 for only $320 proves that it's going to continue. The commoditization of the smartphone was going to happen, it was just a matter of when, and it looks like 2013 might be the start. Once you let the genie out of the bottle, it's tough to stick him back in.

Addendum: I forgot to mention something, which actually has a significant effect on price. As time wears on, component prices fall. Obviously the iPhone 4 costs Apple far less to make today than it did 2 years ago. One business strategy is to sell the phones at cost or lower, and then wait for component prices to drop to make a profit. This is the strategy adopted by Lee Jun and he has publicly stated it. When he introduced the Xiaomi 2 back in October, he stated that although they would sell for $320, it was going to cost his company about $350 (although I suspect he's embellishing some, he thinks he's the Chinese Steve Jobs) until sometime in 2013 when component prices drop, at which point he expects his company to start making a profit on the handset.

[Roo Zilla]

Tech hardware is a fast moving market, I hope they have got their parts at a good price, allowing as low as possible build price. (Yes they need to make profit, but this relies heavily on buying the right parts, at the right price)

Parts are almost always the same price for everybody who uses the same parts. For example, lets look at the S4 Pro quad core AKA MPQ8064 or APQ8064. You go to Qualcomm, and tell them you want to buy it, probably the APQ8064, since it has WiFi and BT. You'll probably buy MDM9615 with it, for cellular. You'll get a worksheet with a bunch of boxes in it. You check the boxes for the frequencies you want. Depending on the boxes you check, the price changes a bit (the chip is the same, but it either turns on or off certain frequencies), as IP costs change a bit. Whether you're Samsung, or RIM, or Xiaomi, Qualcomm charges you the same price. It works the same for just about every component. Certain companies, like Apple, plan far ahead, and actually pre-order stuff that doesn't exist yet. That basically means they get access sooner and get the quantities they want, BUT they still pay the same price. That's why smartphone cost to build tend to be very similar across the board whether it's a iPhone or a S3 or a Lumia 920, they're all within 10-20%.

[Patrick Mcd]

. Whether you're Samsung, or RIM, or Xiaomi, Qualcomm charges you the same price. It works the same for just about every component.

I must confess im not that clued up on this, I was assuming that larger companies, can buy more and thus drive down the price per unit.

Thus if you can shift more handsets, you can get better prices on parts.

[Roo Zilla]

I must confess im not that clued up on this, I was assuming that larger companies, can buy more and thus drive down the price per unit.

Thus if you can shift more handsets, you can get better prices on parts.

The way it works is, the chip manufacturers have a minimum order, it depends on the product, but it's usually something like 300,000 units. Once you order the minimum, the price is the same across the board. Apple is a bit different, since they order their own customized SoC, but the price they pay for commodity parts is the same as everybody else. Parts are pretty cheap as it is, but the primary cost of a lot of parts is IP fees.

For iPhone 5, I think the most expensive part after the screen is the wireless modem, at over $30, but the bulk of the cost of that part is the IP, not the physical chip, which is probably a couple dollars to make. Thus, as Qualcomm pays out IP fees, they collect it from the buyers of the modem part. IP fees for the most part, are non-negotiable since they are usually based on fixed rates because of FRAND licensing. Contrast that to NAND flash, of which 16GB is about $10. You can probably go to a store and buy 16GB of NAND flash for a little over $10.

[darkehawke]

making a profit on a few million phones sold is all well and good but will only contribute to blackberry's demise, i'd rather attract a bigger user base and then get the profits on the next model.
RIM cant be shortsighted and expect the Z10 to be a direct money maker for them. If so we will continue on the downward spiral, or at best remain an insignificant 3rd.

I'm not saying sell the phones at a loss, but at least keep the profit to a bare minimum, it will pay off in the long run

[lnichols]

There are about 4-5 Chinese manufacturers who are targeting E5 in 2013 to introduce their products. Typical high end Android phone with quad core S4 Pro, 8MP camera, etc., etc., will sell for about $350 or less. These guys are all making money on hardware. Phones aren't that expensive to make. For example, the base iPhone 5 costs about $200 to make. Nokia has stated their Lumia line costs about 160 Euros to make. The teardown for the 9900 was about $180. Of course those prices are for hardware only, you need to factor in cost of payments to various patent holders and such. The simple fact that Xiaomi and multiple other vendors can sell a phone comparable to N4 for only $320 proves that it's going to continue. The commoditization of the smartphone was going to happen, it was just a matter of when, and it looks like 2013 might be the start. Once you let the genie out of the bottle, it's tough to stick him back in.

Addendum: I forgot to mention something, which actually has a significant effect on price. As time wears on, component prices fall. Obviously the iPhone 4 costs Apple far less to make today than it did 2 years ago. One business strategy is to sell the phones at cost or lower, and then wait for component prices to drop to make a profit. This is the strategy adopted by Lee Jun and he has publicly stated it. When he introduced the Xiaomi 2 back in October, he stated that although they would sell for $320, it was going to cost his company about $350 (although I suspect he's embellishing some, he thinks he's the Chinese Steve Jobs) until sometime in 2013 when component prices drop, at which point he expects his company to start making a profit on the handset.

Wonder how long it will be till Apple and Microsoft sue these companies for licensing and IP royalties and ask courts to keep the products from being sold in the US until they pay up like they have been able to do to all the major Android OEM's doing business in the US. How much will this add to the cost of these devices?

[darkehawke]

Wonder how long it will be till Apple and Microsoft sue these companies for licensing and IP royalties and ask courts to keep the products from being sold in the US until they pay up like they have been able to do to all the major Android OEM's doing business in the US. How much will this add to the cost of these devices?

they wont be able to since a few of those patents have been invalidated. i mean Samsung/Apple will prob be overturned because most of the patents are B/S anyway and two of the major ones that formed the basis of the case have been overturned
all they will be able to do is rely on their name, and then drop to match when that starts to fail

[jdevenberg]

well just looked on rogers and telus website....the iphone 5 64gb off contract is at $899 and same with telus..very high..For the bold 9900 of today rogers is at $499. and telus is at $630. So if i go with those number of today..well then..still high..but still cheaper than iphone of today...would be nice not more than $500.

comparing the price of an aging phone to the most expensive iPhone is ridiculous. Most people don't buy a 74 GB iPhone, they get a 16 GB. Main reason? The 64 costs too much money. The bold 9900 isn't worth $499 to most people, much less $630.

[Roo Zilla]

Wonder how long it will be till Apple and Microsoft sue these companies for licensing and IP royalties and ask courts to keep the products from being sold in the US until they pay up like they have been able to do to all the major Android OEM's doing business in the US. How much will this add to the cost of these devices?

Most likely, the smaller companies will just pay the licensing fees like HTC. HTC is reportedly paying MS about $5 per Android phone. The licensing deal HTC has with Apple is undisclosed, but let's say it's not significantly different than what HTC pays MS.

[Roo Zilla]

they wont be able to since a few of those patents have been invalidated. i mean Samsung/Apple will prob be overturned because most of the patents are B/S anyway and two of the major ones that formed the basis of the case have been overturned
all they will be able to do is rely on their name, and then drop to match when that starts to fail

About 89% of rejected patents are re-approved once they are either appealed, or re-submitted with small changes, usually when a patent it overly broad. I wouldn't expect the patents to be invalidated, and until they are invalidated, the patent is in force in a court of law. There's a difference between initial rejected, and invalidation.

[lnichols]

they wont be able to since a few of those patents have been invalidated. i mean Samsung/Apple will prob be overturned because most of the patents are B/S anyway and two of the major ones that formed the basis of the case have been overturned
all they will be able to do is rely on their name, and then drop to match when that starts to fail

Their is an article on engadget today where it looks like Samsung might get hammered soon in the US based on heavily redacted documents from the ITC case and that Samsung has violated 4 patents and may have to post 88% bond on the value.http://www.engadget.com/2012/12/29/i...nt-value-bond/

[Skeevecr]

making a profit on a few million phones sold is all well and good but will only contribute to blackberry's demise, i'd rather attract a bigger user base and then get the profits on the next model.
RIM cant be shortsighted and expect the Z10 to be a direct money maker for them. If so we will continue on the downward spiral, or at best remain an insignificant 3rd.

I'm not saying sell the phones at a loss, but at least keep the profit to a bare minimum, it will pay off in the long run

Running out of money and going bankrupt will not pay off in the long run, Rim makes money from hardware simple as that and they need to make profit on hardware and will have to make money with these devices based on the experience of bb10 and not just chuck them into the same price or spec battle that they avoided by not going android in the first place.

[darkehawke]

Running out of money and going bankrupt will not pay off in the long run, Rim makes money from hardware simple as that and they need to make profit on hardware and will have to make money with these devices based on the experience of bb10 and not just chuck them into the same price or spec battle that they avoided by not going android in the first place.

The money income is dwindling. RIM have money in the bank to offset for a while
They wont make money if people dont come to the platform, simple as that.
Attract users to the platform with cheap device, get them hooked, make money on the next device. If the Z10 is popular, word of mouth will beat any marketing RIM can do.

Keep in mind this is a unproven platform, Its entering the market with zero reputation, unlike BB6 and BB7. People simply wont pay a huge price for something unproven

[blkitr]

Keep in mind this is a unproven platform, Its entering the market with zero reputation, unlike BB6 and BB7. People simply wont pay a huge price for something unproven

How much was the oringal IPhone?

[Roo Zilla]

How much was the oringal IPhone?

$500 for 4GB and $600 for 8GB. Then two months later, they discontinued the 4GB and dropped the price of the 8GB to $400 and gave everybody who bought one at the original prices a $100 credit at the Apple Store. The original iPhone was purchased without contract. They sold about 6.1 million of the original iPhones. If BB10 sells 6.1 million units in its first year, it would be considered a monumental flop. There are some guys on the forum who are predicting it will outsell iPhone in 2013............ which is expected to sell in the 150+ million range. I have some doubts about that.

[Pilot Prop]

my hopes are that the Z10 releases at $199 USD/contract....i wont be buying one w/o contract so im not concerned with that price.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk

[Skeevecr]

The money income is dwindling. RIM have money in the bank to offset for a while
They wont make money if people dont come to the platform, simple as that.
Attract users to the platform with cheap device, get them hooked, make money on the next device. If the Z10 is popular, word of mouth will beat any marketing RIM can do.

If they are making no money on this hardware, they won't live long enough to get to next Xmas when the next higher margin device would presumably come out, the devices following these first two are going to be lower margin ones to increase the amount of people on the platform.

The reality is that they are not in a position to support themselves from other sources and need to be profitable on a per device basis and as far as getting people to come to the platform, their initial target is probably to get as many bb7 or older users to upgrade which will give them a decent foundation and provide a fair amount of word of mouth too without doing stuff that would kill their company.

[darkehawke]

If they are making no money on this hardware, they won't live long enough to get to next Xmas when the next higher margin device would presumably come out, the devices following these first two are going to be lower margin ones to increase the amount of people on the platform.

The reality is that they are not in a position to support themselves from other sources and need to be profitable on a per device basis and as far as getting people to come to the platform, their initial target is probably to get as many bb7 or older users to upgrade which will give them a decent foundation and provide a fair amount of word of mouth too without doing stuff that would kill their company.

i think we wont agree on this. i'm not saying you are wrong as what we are doing is conjecture.
i think with increased users will come more service fees. also i think they should sell at minimum profit, not no profit. also i think they should do this only for the z10 as its first out. purely to build a reputation. they can get their normal profit from the n series.
another thing i believe is that bb10 will be the major source of income for 2013 to begin with. i expect that to be bb7 devices still.
but i see where you are coming from and understand your reasoning. just remains to be seen what rim actually do

Sent from my BlackBerry 9810 using Tapatalk

[lnichols]

I will say that I would pay iPhone-like off contract pricing of $650+ if RIM comes out on January 30th and states that they have a version of the phone with the TI OMAP 5430 processor in it. That would be cutting edge processor superior to the Apple A6 and the Qualcomm S4 and I would gladly fork out more coin based on everything that I have read about the processor with the architecture and power efficiency that it is supposed to deliver.

Otherwise I hope that RIM learned from BBOS 7 and PlayBook sales in the US and have learned that they need to price the devices accordingly to move product.

[smoothrunnings]

Wow you Brits are sure damn foolish. How would you let any company sell you something that costs you more than in North America?

�500 is $800 CAD, I have never once paid that much for any RIM device that goes for Playbook which is a 64GB one. I did the match using the Bank of Canada's current exchange rate calculator.

[Skeevecr]

British prices will be inclusive of 20% vat, which isn't the case for american pricing nor I think that of canada is it?

[smoothrunnings]

20% tax (tax = vat)? Even still 20% of 500 is 100 pounds right?

We pay 13% tax on everything which is still a lot less than 20%, a $650 device would cost $734.50 with tax CAD but not $800 which is what I would pay if I bought the same device there!!

[Plazmic Flame]

Wow you Brits are sure damn foolish. How would you let any company sell you something that costs you more than in North America?

�500 is $800 CAD, I have never once paid that much for any RIM device that goes for Playbook which is a 64GB one. I did the match using the Bank of Canada's current exchange rate calculator.

Do they really have a choice? Companies set the price, consumer decides to buy it or not. End of story.

Also, if you do a price comparison on anything from the UK, it would seem like they pay more for everything. Keep in mind though, the Pound is more valuable than the CAD so you can't really do comparisons like that.