07-01-09 02:27 PM
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  1. kwsmithphoto's Avatar
    Clarification - Basically if you have the VZ Nav working, the GPS signal is unlocked. Once you cancel, that goes away. What this does though is open up the possibility of using GPS based apps on a VZ phone...
    That trick doesn't work for me, no matter what mode VZ Nav is in, no other software can get at the GPS receiver.

    does VZNav work when you dont have a cell signal? I know it should be working on the interal GPS. But does the actual program need to be called up via cell towers?
    "Interal" GPS? The program is installed on the phone and uses aGPS to get your location, then pulls content (maps, POI's etc.) over the network as needed or requested.

    VZNav requests map data almost continuously over the data connection. It really can't work without EVDO access.
    I've used it in 1RX areas and it works ok, just takes longer to get data (naturally). You don't need to use the "Follow Me Map" which uses a lot of airtime. The turn by turn directions will work for a while without cell service because the route is downloaded to the phone, but it still polls the towers to update things in the background - if you're in an area without service for x amount of time it will stop navigating. And if you stray from the route it has to get a map of where you went astray to recalc the guidance.

    you guys are missing a big chunk of the boat with vznav. i have a tomtom...but roads are constantly changing. you have to update your maps ever year. if you factor that in, you are paying tomtom $8 a month to stay current...but you are only updated once a year. vznav updates in real time, right?

    also, you pay extra for all the tomtom plus services...like finding the lowest gas, weather updates, movie times, etc.

    when you factor that in vznav may be cheaper. has anyone tried both? how accurate is vznav?
    Yes, that's something a lot of people overlook - the VZ Nav database is continually updated...although only as often as the info becomes available and gets plugged into the database, so there are errors just like a standalone GPS navigator. The current version for BlackBerry doesn't have the traffic, movie times, etc. features that the current BREW version does but they (not Verizon - Network in Motion is the actual developer) are working on it. At one point they said late June but here we are in mid July and no update. The most current version for BB is v2.9.9 Build 120.

    My guess is that they'll have it ready when they have the 4.5 OS ready. And btw yes, it is pretty accurate, at least as accurate as a straight GPS receiver can be. It doesn't get supplemental data like an OEM car nav system does so it's not quite as accurate and is slower to respond to changes in direction, but if it sees enough satellites it's still plenty accurate.
    07-17-08 01:39 PM
  2. Namji's Avatar
    VZW is just greedy... :P
    07-17-08 01:51 PM
  3. waterfrontmgmt's Avatar
    VZW is just greedy... :P
    i take it you are not a business owner. it's called capilalism (?spelling). be glad you live in a country that has it....:P
    07-17-08 02:11 PM
  4. kwsmithphoto's Avatar
    It's spelled "Capitalism." Based on a free market economy.

    Unfortunately, Verizon doesn't believe in in the free market system when it comes to their services. Sure, once my contract is up I can change carriers, but they sold us a phone with a GPS receiver, locked us into a contract for 2 years, but didn't mention that the GPS only works with software and a service they charge extra for.

    Bad corporate ethics at best, anti-competitive behavior at worst. The latter is illegal under US law.

    BTW, I own a business and would never pull **** like this on any of my customers.
    07-17-08 02:26 PM
  5. anon(368121)'s Avatar
    It's spelled "Capitalism." Based on a free market economy.

    Unfortunately, Verizon doesn't believe in in the free market system when it comes to their services. Sure, once my contract is up I can change carriers, but they sold us a phone with a GPS receiver, locked us into a contract for 2 years, but didn't mention that the GPS only works with software and a service they charge extra for.
    From RIM's 8330 feature description:

    Global Positioning System (GPS) capable: Use with BlackBerry Maps or other mapping applications(1) to view your geographic location on a map or determine how close you are to shops and services

    (1) When you subscribe for, acquire, or use third party products and services with RIM products or services you accept that: 1. It is your sole responsibility to (a) ensure that your airtime service provider will support all of their features; (b) identify and acquire all required intellectual property and other licences prior to installation or use and to comply with the terms of such licences; 2. RIM provides such products and services on an “AS IS” basis with no express or implied conditions, endorsements, guarantees, representations or warranties of any kind, and assumes no liability whatsoever with respect to them.

    Verizon's web site says nothing about the 8330 containing GPS capabilities; it lists VZNavigator as a supported option.

    Bad corporate ethics at best, anti-competitive behavior at worst. The latter is illegal under US law.
    Verizon's doing nothing anti-competitive. The 8330 is available from other vendors, and has GPS available for 3rd party applications.

    BTW, I own a business and would never pull **** like this on any of my customers.
    How nice. Is it a multi-billion dollar business like Verizon?
    07-17-08 03:49 PM
  6. unmasked's Avatar
    It's spelled "Capitalism." Based on a free market economy.

    Unfortunately, Verizon doesn't believe in in the free market system when it comes to their services. Sure, once my contract is up I can change carriers, but they sold us a phone with a GPS receiver, locked us into a contract for 2 years, but didn't mention that the GPS only works with software and a service they charge extra for.

    Bad corporate ethics at best, anti-competitive behavior at worst. The latter is illegal under US law.

    BTW, I own a business and would never pull **** like this on any of my customers.
    The fact that they don't allow you to use third party GPS software is the only legitimate gripe you have. But at the same time, GPS is a network hog and it all goes over their network. I hate defending Verizon as it's like defending Tom Brady or Microsoft, but I get the feeling that a lot of people really don't understand what goes into GPS. I mean seriously, how is this not free market enterprise and anti-competitive? No one held a gun to your head to sign a contract with Verizon. You did so in order to purchase a phone that Verizon subsidizes for you in exchange for a 2-year commitment.

    Building a device to receive a GPS signal is extremely easy and cheap. It's also extremely useless (like a radio with no speakers or headphone jacks). That's why every GPS receiver available for purchase also comes with software and hardware and (I believe) all GPS receivers charge monthly/annual fees for updated maps. That's what makes them expensive. And last I checked, Verizon - evil company that it is I don't disagree with you there - does not hide the fact that they charge $10 for this service. Whether you think it is a reasonable cost or not is something you should have considered before signing the contract.
    Last edited by unmasked; 07-17-08 at 04:05 PM.
    07-17-08 04:02 PM
  7. Irish452's Avatar
    [QUOTE=Dodge Deboulet;505858

    Verizon's web site says nothing about the 8330 containing GPS capabilities; it lists VZNavigator as a supported option.

    [/QUOTE]

    Bottom line is that the 8330 is FULLY capable of utilizing the GPS built in to the handset by RIM with all 3rd party applications, as evidenced by ALL carriers other than Verizon. Listen, I love Verizon but they are plain wrong to cripple this feature to make the extra buck. There comes a point where you have to put the customer first, and in this case, when the competition is offering the use of GPS for free- charging us is unfair. If VZNav is so great, then keep the app and people who want to pay for it, can.
    07-17-08 04:06 PM
  8. Irish452's Avatar
    The fact that they don't allow you to use third party GPS software is the only legitimate gripe you have. But at the same time, GPS is a network hog and it all goes over their network. I hate defending Verizon as it's like defending Tom Brady or Microsoft, but I get the feeling that a lot of people really don't understand what goes into GPS. I mean seriously, how is this not free market enterprise and anti-competitive? No one held a gun to your head to sign a contract with Verizon. You did so in order to purchase a phone that Verizon subsidizes for you in exchange for a 2-year commitment.

    Building a device to receive a GPS signal is extremely easy and cheap. It's also extremely useless (like a radio with no speakers or headphone jacks). That's why every GPS receiver available for purchase also comes with software and hardware and (I believe) all GPS receivers charge monthly/annual fees for updated maps. That's what makes them expensive. And last I checked, Verizon - evil company that it is I don't disagree with you there - does not hide the fact that they charge $10 for this service. Whether you think it is a reasonable cost or not is something you should have considered before signing the contract.
    Using the GPS on 3rd party apps has nothing to do with Verizon's network, whatsoever. The GPS is built in to the device, and using it does not require being on any "network", unless the network you speak of is the satelites owned by the United States of America. These 3rd party apps, such as geotagging images, simply take the coordinates provided by the GPS receiver in your phone.
    07-17-08 04:17 PM
  9. anon(368121)'s Avatar
    Bottom line is that the 8330 is FULLY capable of utilizing the GPS built in to the handset by RIM with all 3rd party applications, as evidenced by ALL carriers other than Verizon. Listen, I love Verizon but they are plain wrong to cripple this feature to make the extra buck. There comes a point where you have to put the customer first, and in this case, when the competition is offering the use of GPS for free- charging us is unfair. If VZNav is so great, then keep the app and people who want to pay for it, can.
    Verizon consistently puts the customer first with its service coverage, network speed, customer support, on-line features and the robustness and stability of the devices they supply.

    They're not going to do that with tiny margins.

    Face it. You went with Verizon for all of the reasons I listed above. They never said that GPS support was part of the deal, so you've really got no reason to take them to task now. If you're unhappy with the current situation, vote with your wallet. It's not like there aren't any other options. They're just not good options.

    Verizon will only change when they start to see their customer base erode. Fortunately for them, everyone else is botching things up in either the customer service or network coverage areas, so that's not likely to happen any time soon. Get over it or get with another carrier.
    07-17-08 06:32 PM
  10. anon(368121)'s Avatar
    Using the GPS on 3rd party apps has nothing to do with Verizon's network, whatsoever. The GPS is built in to the device, and using it does not require being on any "network", unless the network you speak of is the satelites owned by the United States of America. These 3rd party apps, such as geotagging images, simply take the coordinates provided by the GPS receiver in your phone.
    Oh? Exactly how much map data can you carry around with a measly 40MB of available system memory?

    A GPS that shows only latitude/longitude is pretty much useless for 99% of the population. You need gigabytes of data either on the device or available via the 3G network to make it do anything. Sure, the 8330 and 8830WE have MIcroSDHC card slots, but ohmigod can you imagine the whining from folks that can't use their GPS because they have to drop a half a benjamin on some itty bitty chip thingy?

    Let's say for a moment that Verizon opens up GPS, gives away VZNav to anyone that wants it, but charges map data access against your data plan. All those folks that install and use the thing while paying for 5 or 10MB plans are going to soil themselves when their bills show up.

    The cost of VZNav includes the map data access, so no hit on your data charges. My guess is that for anyone that's not on an unlimited plan (and not a casual GPS user), it's a bargain.
    07-17-08 06:54 PM
  11. kwsmithphoto's Avatar
    How nice. Is it a multi-billion dollar business like Verizon?
    No. Is yours?
    07-18-08 03:47 AM
  12. kwsmithphoto's Avatar
    The fact that they don't allow you to use third party GPS software is the only legitimate gripe you have. But at the same time, GPS is a network hog and it all goes over their network. I hate defending Verizon as it's like defending Tom Brady or Microsoft, but I get the feeling that a lot of people really don't understand what goes into GPS. I mean seriously, how is this not free market enterprise and anti-competitive? No one held a gun to your head to sign a contract with Verizon. You did so in order to purchase a phone that Verizon subsidizes for you in exchange for a 2-year commitment.

    Building a device to receive a GPS signal is extremely easy and cheap. It's also extremely useless (like a radio with no speakers or headphone jacks). That's why every GPS receiver available for purchase also comes with software and hardware and (I believe) all GPS receivers charge monthly/annual fees for updated maps. That's what makes them expensive. And last I checked, Verizon - evil company that it is I don't disagree with you there - does not hide the fact that they charge $10 for this service. Whether you think it is a reasonable cost or not is something you should have considered before signing the contract.
    If you've read my earlier posts you'll see that I like VZ Nav quite a bit and look forward to the BlackBerry version of v4. I don't think they're evil at all (ok maybe a little). I've been with them for more than 10 years, I just think that on this one issue they're being stupid by not giving their customers more options. But I disagree that it's not anti-competitive; I think it's the essence of anti-competitive.

    You will also see in my earlier posts in this thread that I think it's in -their- best interests to unlock the GPS so that position aware applications other than navigation apps and other things they don't sell can use it as well. I understand your point about network bandwidth but not all applications do that, they just look for position info, which is completely independent of the network. There are many, many applications that do use quite a bit of bandwidth like RSS feeds running in the background and chat apps that Verizon doesn't block, so I think your argument there is is rather flawed. A third-party app that only needs position info from the GPS receiver doesn't use any network bandwidth at all, they're entirely separate things.

    Also, like I've said before, if AT&T can sell their re-branded version of TeleNav but also let you use Garmin, Google, etc. and still survive somehow, why can't Verizon? It is anti-competitive in the sense that they're blocking a feature that prevents competing software companies from selling me a similar service. But by locking the GPS from ALL position-aware applications besides the few they sell themselves, they're not doing their customers any favors.

    But again, I accept this, because I like most everything else about Verizon including their excellent customer service, Vodaphone relationship, pretty good 3G almost everywhere and LTE on the way very soon. If the Thunder is any good I'll like them even more.

    I just wish they'd stop this GPS locking nonsense because I think it does them more harm then good. Heck, nevermind us whiners, what about their larger enterprise customers who need or want to track their employees with software of their own (proprietary) design? That's a service they can't offer now, but their competitors can.

    That said, I think it will soon be a moot point since they've already gone on record that they want to allow the use of their network for things like tracking devices and other things that use both GPS and their network bandwidth including devices that have nothing to do with consumer services like voice and navigation software.

    IOW, as someone said earlier, I think they will unlock the GPS in the near future. They'd be foolish not to, IMO. I can see them keeping it locked for their consumer BREW phones, but for BlackBerry's? I don't think so, or at least I hope not - for their sake and mine!
    07-18-08 04:48 AM
  13. bobkramer#CB's Avatar
    As of July 17 Verizon has NO PLANS to unlock GPS!!!
    07-18-08 07:52 AM
  14. thesuzukimethod's Avatar
    Just received a follow up call from Verizon Tech Services.... (I had a tech issue where i made a phone call to support, and they had me take a follow up survey (computer) and then called me up to ask a few more questions (human).)

    I really like verizon for a number of reasons, but the locked GPS is an annoyance. So when they asked me to record a voice memo about the "one thing that would most help them raise their score with me", i said "unlock the GPS".

    The tech person who followed up said that the number of complaints re: GPS locking has gone up significantly in the past 3 mos or so, (perhaps coinciding with the release of the curve?) and that she has no insight on what they will do, but that they do pass these comments on...

    We talked about vz-nav, but the thing is, i dont use GPS based stuff very much, so $10/month for an occasional 1-off isn't really worth it for me, but the ability to use the GPS signal on occasion with google/bb maps, or some other location based service, would be nice. no GPS wasn't a dealbreaker for me, but the hope that they'd unlock it for at least some of these basic uses was definitely in the back of my mind.
    07-18-08 08:33 AM
  15. RockAndRollAcdc's Avatar
    As of July 17 Verizon has NO PLANS to unlock GPS!!!
    As of may 2010 ill be looking for a new provider if Verizon haven't unlock GPS...
    07-18-08 08:34 AM
  16. beeray's Avatar
    Why not tell this to Verizon? They may be upset enough to unlock the gps. I'm also very concerned and expressed my feelings to them. I bought a small receiver or $30 and it works just great.

    Rochelle
    07-18-08 09:01 AM
  17. RockAndRollAcdc's Avatar
    Once verizon takes over alltel and they somehow lock my phone with a update for example or break our contracts. I will be calling, trust me. Even knowing losing a little customer like me probably don't matter to them....
    07-18-08 10:15 AM
  18. teylini's Avatar
    I would appreciate them unlocking the GPS in Blackberrys as well
    07-18-08 10:51 AM
  19. timowen1's Avatar
    There are a lot of people trashing VZW over locking the GPS on some of the BB's. I have Verizon because of the service area they cover and reliability of the carrier. I have very little to no problems. I can't remember the last time I could not connect or had a dropped call and I travel Mich. to Florida and Dayton, Oh to Dallas. Do I want the GPS unlocked..sure I do. I currently use a third party nav software and a GPS puck. Did I know it was locked when I bought the phone..sure i did. I bought it anyway for the reasons written above. Does VZW have the right to cripple the GPS...heck yes. If you don't like it don't buy it. If you bought it you should have known going into it before hand that the GPS was locked. Just because you may have paid full retail for the phone does not mean VZW should unlock the GPS feature because it was built into the phone. If it was bought to be used on Verizon's network then they do not have to unlock it if they do not want to.
    All I am saying is when you walk through a door do it with your eyes open knowing what is on the other side. If you know what is on the other side and you don't like it then don't go there.
    Stop whining and get a life..try working for a living..
    07-18-08 11:22 AM
  20. teylini's Avatar
    It would nice if they allowed the use of the internal GPS for other applications if you paid for VZNavigator. I would pay the $10/month if it would unlock the GPS for Google Maps and all other GPS enabled apps.
    07-18-08 02:04 PM
  21. StevieBloodlust's Avatar
    is this why apps like bberry maps and superpages mobile cannot find my gps location?
    07-18-08 05:14 PM
  22. mab4285's Avatar
    is this why apps like bberry maps and superpages mobile cannot find my gps location?
    Yes

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-18-08 05:47 PM
  23. StevieBloodlust's Avatar
    Yes
    thanks man, an interesting thing though is that my last known location is somewhere in Boston, ive been there, but not with this phone...i bought it off ebay and it came from oregon, it baffles me
    07-18-08 06:01 PM
  24. thesuzukimethod's Avatar
    There are a lot of people trashing VZW over locking the GPS on some of the BB's. .... Does VZW have the right to cripple the GPS...heck yes. If you don't like it don't buy it. If you bought it you should have known going into it before hand that the GPS was locked. ...
    All I am saying is when you walk through a door do it with your eyes open knowing what is on the other side. If you know what is on the other side and you don't like it then don't go there.
    Stop whining and get a life..try working for a living..
    i think you're reducing a more nuanced situation into polemics. I knew GPS was locked when i bought, and if they dont unlock it....fine. I'll either get a puck or just not care. agreed - if people don't like it, they can go elsewhere.

    But the assertion that the consumer has no say, and if they should (gasp) even give their opinion on what would make their service better - they are all a bunch of whiners? c'mon.
    07-18-08 06:15 PM
  25. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    thanks man, an interesting thing though is that my last known location is somewhere in Boston, ive been there, but not with this phone...i bought it off ebay and it came from oregon, it baffles me
    The program is so good it reached into your mind and saw where you had been in the past.


    Last known location is not being polled from the phone. It's not being polled at all. It just comes up to that by default when it can't find a last known location. Others have reported the same.
    07-18-08 06:27 PM
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