07-01-09 02:27 PM
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  1. NeveSSL's Avatar
    ... I actually pay the $10/m for this service despite my complete dissatisfaction with it. ...
    Wow... do I even need to comment?

    Brandon
    07-09-08 12:42 AM
  2. sandflea's Avatar
    The issue about this that really gets me is GPS is a government funded public good.
    The GPS website states on the front page, with my own emphasis added:
    GPS "is a U.S. space-based radionavigation system that provides reliable positioning, navigation, and timing services to civilian users on a continuous worldwide basis -- freely available to all. For anyone with a GPS receiver, the system will provide location and time. GPS provides accurate location and time information for an unlimited number of people in all weather, day and night, anywhere in the world."

    Even GW Bush said in 2004:
    The United States Government shall... Provide on a continuous, worldwide basis civil space-based positioning, navigation, and timing services free of direct user fees for civil, commercial, and scientific uses and for homeland security through the Global Positioning System and its augmentations, and provide open, free access to information necessary to develop and build equipment to use these services.

    Or to put it plainly... our phones have a GPS receiver so therefore we should be able to access this public resource for FREE! I view it as a big slap in the face to us Verizon customers. The VZW Nav program isn't even technically GPS. It just really irks me.
    Exactly! You, me, our parents, our friends and our kids have already PAID for all of the GPS satelites to be designed, launched - and used, as a FREE system. Also, you bought the GPS chip in your phone assuming you could use it!

    There's a class action lawsuit and a petition out on the web (I can't post it because I'm under 10 ;(

    Search for it, and sign it.

    Oh, and I'd really appreciate it if all of the VZNav fan boys would just send me their $10 a month. I'll gladly tell you where to go...

    SF
    07-09-08 07:41 AM
  3. bigworm36's Avatar
    could not have said it any better!!!
    07-09-08 09:52 PM
  4. Castor Troy's Avatar
    Exactly! You, me, our parents, our friends and our kids have already PAID for all of the GPS satelites to be designed, launched - and used, as a FREE system. Also, you bought the GPS chip in your phone assuming you could use it!

    There's a class action lawsuit and a petition out on the web (I can't post it because I'm under 10 ;(

    Search for it, and sign it.

    Oh, and I'd really appreciate it if all of the VZNav fan boys would just send me their $10 a month. I'll gladly tell you where to go...

    SF
    Class action lawsuit AND petition? Comical..........what Verizon customers bought their phones assuming the GPS was free? It's WIDELY known and advertised all over VZW that the Nav is $9.99/Month. It's not a secret. People pi_ss and moan about it constantly, but guess what? Thats the way it has ALWAYS been and if you did not like it like why the heck did you sign the contract?. So you could whine and cry about how it's not right and you are OWED free GPS use? Nobody owes you, I, or anyone anything at anytime. Thats life get over it and move on. It's like renting an apartment and the landlord says "there is a surcharge for garbage removal every month" and you go and sign the lease and then like an ***** complain about it...never ceases to amaze me. The lawsuit and petition are a joke. Nobody was tricked or lied to.....enough with the incessant whining about having to pay a lousy 10 bucks.
    07-09-08 10:29 PM
  5. NeveSSL's Avatar
    And then others **** and whine about people **** and whining.
    07-10-08 12:37 AM
  6. Didimus's Avatar
    Class action lawsuit AND petition? Comical..........what Verizon customers bought their phones assuming the GPS was free? It's WIDELY known and advertised all over VZW that the Nav is $9.99/Month. It's not a secret. People pi_ss and moan about it constantly, but guess what? Thats the way it has ALWAYS been and if you did not like it like why the heck did you sign the contract?. So you could whine and cry about how it's not right and you are OWED free GPS use? Nobody owes you, I, or anyone anything at anytime. Thats life get over it and move on. It's like renting an apartment and the landlord says "there is a surcharge for garbage removal every month" and you go and sign the lease and then like an ***** complain about it...never ceases to amaze me. The lawsuit and petition are a joke. Nobody was tricked or lied to.....enough with the incessant whining about having to pay a lousy 10 bucks.
    I agree that the petition is meaningless and the lawsuit will more than likely go no where. However, I disagree with your stance on the matter. VZW Nav is not technically GPS, it uses the cell phone towers to triangulate your position as opposed to government satellites. GPS is a free service that we all paid for with our hard earned tax dollars. My issue lies in the fact that VZW blocks this free service and replaces it with their own leaving us with no other choice but to use their program (I personally am a fan of google maps). It's no secret that the cell phone companies can block whatever features they want and we should probably blame congress for that one.

    I do see people mentioning that VZW is "making a killing" off their Nav program, but do that many people really use it? I do find it hard to imagine they're making as much money as people suggest they are.

    One last thing. Is there any info on the rumor that this entire thread is based upon? I would like to know.
    07-10-08 11:55 AM
  7. anon(368121)'s Avatar
    I agree that the petition is meaningless and the lawsuit will more than likely go no where. However, I disagree with your stance on the matter. VZW Nav is not technically GPS, it uses the cell phone towers to triangulate your position as opposed to government satellites. GPS is a free service that we all paid for with our hard earned tax dollars. My issue lies in the fact that VZW blocks this free service and replaces it with their own leaving us with no other choice but to use their program (I personally am a fan of google maps). It's no secret that the cell phone companies can block whatever features they want and we should probably blame congress for that one.

    I do see people mentioning that VZW is "making a killing" off their Nav program, but do that many people really use it? I do find it hard to imagine they're making as much money as people suggest they are.

    One last thing. Is there any info on the rumor that this entire thread is based upon? I would like to know.
    I believe you are incorrect with regard to the statement in bold above. Google Maps uses cell tower location; VZNav uses the internal GPS hardware.

    Cell tower triangulation can at best provide accuracy of 50 to 300 meters, and VZNav offers much better resolution than that.
    Last edited by Dodge Deboulet; 07-10-08 at 12:16 PM.
    07-10-08 12:06 PM
  8. cwadams70's Avatar
    On the contrary, I bought my BB with the understanding both from advertisement at the time and word of the sales rep at a verizon store (then a 8830) that I had world phone capabilities for a fee and GPS for free because it was a bulit with a GPS receiver thus making it the "ultimate travel phone". Go figure... With that said, I am sure that walking off the street into a store, many many people have been told about the wonderful capabilities of the BB but not given the disclaimer, "btw, we disable a feature/service that your taxes have already paid for". So class action is necessary. VZ nav is simply terrible. I purchased a Holus puck and use bb maps so it makes no difference to me but the fact is, VZW initially marketed the 8830 with GPS capabilities- no mention of having to pay extra .

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-10-08 12:11 PM
  9. Didimus's Avatar
    I believe you are incorrect with regard to the statement in bold above. Google Maps uses cell tower location; VZNav uses the internal GPS hardware.

    Cell tower triangulation can at best provide accuracy of 50 to 300 meters, and VZNav offers much better resolution than that.
    Hmm.. I may not be entirely correct in that part you are right. But I do believe Google Maps only uses the basic cell tower triangulation if it cannot access your internal GPS (and since Verizon blocks it, you're stuck with the triangulation).
    07-10-08 12:36 PM
  10. CalPolyRock's Avatar
    Here's the online petition
    petitiononline. com/vzwgps/petition.html

    Also here on Berry Review, they talk about maybe opening up GPS after the Open Access policy changes, late 2008

    berryreview. com/2008/07/10/is-it-true-verizon-offering-telenav-for-corporate-accounts/

    Since I have < 10 posts, I can't post URLs so fix them and remove the spaces above
    07-10-08 02:02 PM
  11. Bccovington's Avatar
    Class action lawsuit AND petition? Comical..........what Verizon customers bought their phones assuming the GPS was free? It's WIDELY known and advertised all over VZW that the Nav is $9.99/Month. It's not a secret. People pi_ss and moan about it constantly, but guess what? Thats the way it has ALWAYS been and if you did not like it like why the heck did you sign the contract?. So you could whine and cry about how it's not right and you are OWED free GPS use? Nobody owes you, I, or anyone anything at anytime. Thats life get over it and move on. It's like renting an apartment and the landlord says "there is a surcharge for garbage removal every month" and you go and sign the lease and then like an ***** complain about it...never ceases to amaze me. The lawsuit and petition are a joke. Nobody was tricked or lied to.....enough with the incessant whining about having to pay a lousy 10 bucks.
    AMEN!!!!!!
    07-10-08 02:56 PM
  12. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    I think a lot of you still don't know the difference or could cite the details between GPS and aGPS on Blackberry devices.
    07-10-08 03:42 PM
  13. NeveSSL's Avatar
    And that matters because...

    Or are you not willing to share your obviously superior knowledge?
    07-10-08 05:46 PM
  14. kwsmithphoto's Avatar
    aGPS combines triangulation with GPS. It's in the iPhone 3G, not sure about the 8330 (the specs just say "GPS").

    I like VZNav, works great here in SoCal. The new BREW version is significantly better though, easily on par with Telenav. Should be coming soon to BBerry's, probably after the 4.5 release.

    BTW, Verizon doesn't make VZNav, they license it from another company, so part of your $10 goes somewhere else. BTW, if you don't want to pay extra for it, upgrade your voice plan to Nationwide Premium and get it for "free."

    Anyway, ya, they should definitely unlock it for other applications. I'm surprised the FTC hasn't nailed them for that. Oh wait, it's still the Bush administration. Nevermind.
    07-10-08 08:31 PM
  15. FF22's Avatar
    You know, my puck seems to get an accuracy rated at around 3 meters so I really don't think I need Verizon enhancing that to 3 centimeters or 1 foot or whatever. So Verizon does not have to add anything other than turning on the gps that my device was constructed with.

    I also wonder why this is not anticompetitive - I should be able to use whatever gps software I want with the cell phone I purchased. Is this kind of like Internet Explorer - you will like it and use and and have no choice because you are using Windows??? Maybe we need one of the gps software companies to allege monopolistic practices rather than mere users of the phone.
    07-10-08 08:55 PM
  16. Didimus's Avatar
    I like the way you think.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-10-08 09:16 PM
  17. kwsmithphoto's Avatar
    You know, my puck seems to get an accuracy rated at around 3 meters so I really don't think I need Verizon enhancing that to 3 centimeters or 1 foot or whatever. So Verizon does not have to add anything other than turning on the gps that my device was constructed with.

    I also wonder why this is not anticompetitive - I should be able to use whatever gps software I want with the cell phone I purchased. Is this kind of like Internet Explorer - you will like it and use and and have no choice because you are using Windows??? Maybe we need one of the gps software companies to allege monopolistic practices rather than mere users of the phone.
    Well there's a LOT more to VZNav than driving directions, it's the ultimate local phone book since it knows where you are, and has a vast, constantly updated database to feed it with.

    And ya, I agree, it IS anti-competitive, hence my FTC remark, they should have taken action years ago. It's actually much worse than the (ridiculous) Microsoft case since Verizon controls both the hardware and the software, so they can block access to a feature we paid for, on hardware they didn't create, to benefit themselves financially. It's the very essence of monopolist behavior.
    07-10-08 10:47 PM
  18. unmasked's Avatar
    The issue about this that really gets me is GPS is a government funded public good.
    The GPS signal is free but the receivers, software and maps are not. Not only that, you are not receiving a GPS signal since your GPS data comes over Verizon's network. If you were receiving a true GPS signal then Verizon would not be able to block it.
    Last edited by unmasked; 07-11-08 at 10:02 AM.
    07-11-08 09:53 AM
  19. boxofrain's Avatar
    The GPS signal is free but the receivers, software and maps are not.
    Aye, there's the rub. We paid for phones that are GPS recievers and have the software and maps. The company we bought it from disabled the receiver for their own benefit.
    07-11-08 10:02 AM
  20. unmasked's Avatar
    There's more to it than that, though (see my edited post). I'm not sticking up for Verizon as I hate them. But I can't see any sort of legal action having any impact. You have to vote with your dollars as I did many years ago.
    07-11-08 10:05 AM
  21. mbrouill's Avatar
    Folks,

    Complain all you want, but it's falling on deaf ears at Verizon Wireless. They don't care! Enough folks ate buying it that it is profitable to them. If everyone stopped using it, then MAYBE they might reconsider, but don't hold your breath...
    07-11-08 10:40 AM
  22. anon(1060539)'s Avatar
    Dead on mbrouill!

    Verizon does NOTHING without the intent of making money
    07-11-08 11:20 AM
  23. Arninetyes's Avatar
    Dead on mbrouill!

    Verizon does NOTHING without the intent of making money
    And this makes them different from other cell companies... how?
    07-11-08 12:54 PM
  24. Arninetyes's Avatar
    The GPS signal is free but the receivers, software and maps are not. Not only that, you are not receiving a GPS signal since your GPS data comes over Verizon's network. If you were receiving a true GPS signal then Verizon would not be able to block it.
    From what I've read, Verizon isn't blocking the signal, they are blocking access to the GPS hardware - not through their network, but by their implementation of the BB system software. Someone keeps asking why Verizon takes so long to bring out new Blackberrys. It's because it takes time to work with RIM and rewrite parts of the OS to cripple Bluetooth file transfer, GPS, etc. They claim they are doing it for customer security. If it were ONLY about security, they would offer their software to unlock it for free.

    Of course, they spent millions to cripple phone features, and they want that money back - plus some profit.

    I've heard a couple rumors about the future of VZW locked GPS (and Bluetooth), but since I can't substantiate anything, there's no point in repeating it.

    PS - what i WILL repeat - it looks like it may be a looooong time before Verizon gets the Bold. B^(
    Last edited by Arninetyes; 07-11-08 at 01:11 PM. Reason: Afterthought
    07-11-08 01:01 PM
  25. anon(1060539)'s Avatar
    Other telcos have not made the investments that VZW has. VZNavigator was a business investment and they want a return on that investment. AT&T and others did not want to make the investment that verizon did so they just leave the GPS alone.

    RIM develops the GSM version of their phones first (more users are GSM world wide than CDMA) thats why Verizon gets new phones later. The exception to this obviously being the Thunder as it is being developed for VZW.

    Verizon is trying to be more than just a phone company in that respect. They always try and get the max profit of of there devices and if that means dinking with it to disable GPS so they can sell a 10 dollar a month service, so be it
    Last edited by Mxkied2; 07-11-08 at 02:26 PM.
    07-11-08 02:18 PM
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