1. MangoGT's Avatar
    With the recent news that the GPS in the Blackberry Storm has been enabled for use with Google Maps, I think its time to pressure Verizon Wireless into giving 8330 owners the same treatment.

    I am fairly confident that our previous effort had something to do with the GPS being unlocked for Blackberry Maps in our phones. The problem was that we only demanded that it be unlocked for BB Maps, a program that is native to the phone.

    Now that the Storm is capable of utilizing the GPS for Google Maps, lets call Verizon's Executive offices and request that they enable the same feature for 8330 owners.

    Post to this thread saying that you want to participate and I will PM you the direct number.
    02-19-09 10:58 PM
  2. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    i'm with ya brotha! U prob read all the threads and know this is my #1 pet peeve!

    But on another note, isn't the storm GPS fully unlocked? I think it is from everything I know. Its not just google... thats important to note because the curve should be unlocked fully just like the storm. And if it is 100% for the storm, it should be 100% for the curve
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 02-19-09 at 11:07 PM.
    02-19-09 11:05 PM
  3. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    but yes, I will participate 100% PM me anytime!
    02-19-09 11:06 PM
  4. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Sorry, but the GPS on the Curve is single-mode a-GPS. Access to the network is controlled by the network and the chip cannot fall back to GPS only mode. It would be akin to getting a Ford Mustang to fly like a P-51 Mustang.

    The Storm has a dual-mode GPS chip that runs in the superior a-GPS mode for VZNav & BB Maps, then can fall back to GPS-only for everything else.

    The fact the a-GPS is network limited is because the database access & data would run hundreds of dollars per month.

    Give it up & get a puck or a standalone nav unit.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by TwinsX2Dad; 02-19-09 at 11:25 PM.
    02-19-09 11:09 PM
  5. xliderider's Avatar
    If it's network limited why does Google Maps work for Sprint users? If its so cost prohibitive then Sprint shouldn't have it either, and yet they do. I'm not buying it...

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-19-09 11:16 PM
  6. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Google Maps works on VZW Curves, but without the accuracy. Google has a marketing agreement with Sprint.

    Its funny that as soon as RIM dropped their database access fees, BB Maps opened up for us.

    Here's something that might infuriate you. My Curve has a dual-mode GPS in it. Supposedly just a few batches of Canadian-origin 8330 units got them due to a shortage of the single-mode chips. My Garmin software works well on this phone, but my other Curve needs a puck. Both are on VZW.

    Oh no - my kids' T-Mobile Curves won't work without a puck either. They are GPS & not WiFi units.

    Buy what you will, but without an agreement, Curves are single-mode & as such, will not work well with third party GPS apps.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by TwinsX2Dad; 02-19-09 at 11:34 PM.
    02-19-09 11:31 PM
  7. MangoGT's Avatar
    Give it up & get a puck or a standalone nav unit.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I already have both--and enjoy them tremendously. This time around and the previous effort are really for the benefit of the Crackberry community. Call me an idealist, but I feel like I'm doing Verizon Wireless a favor by allowing some of their highest paying customers to contact their executive offices directly with a reasonable feature request.
    02-19-09 11:52 PM
  8. MangoGT's Avatar
    Sorry, but the GPS on the Curve is single-mode a-GPS. Access to the network is controlled by the network and the chip cannot fall back to GPS only mode. It would be akin to getting a Ford Mustang to fly like a P-51 Mustang.

    The Storm has a dual-mode GPS chip that runs in the superior a-GPS mode for VZNav & BB Maps, then can fall back to GPS-only for everything else.
    So the GPS functionality in Google Maps for the 8330 is hardware limited?

    Google Maps works on VZW Curves, but without the accuracy. Google has a marketing agreement with Sprint.
    Despite being hardware limited, the same GPS chip in the same phone works on a different carrier because of a marketing agreement?


    02-19-09 11:57 PM
  9. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    So the GPS functionality in Google Maps for the 8330 is hardware limited?
    To an extent, yes. Assisted-GPS requires heavy data connectivity. Even those people paying for tethering and who can use a-GPS on other carriers are hitting the data caps when running GPS software. how happy would you be if you were cut off for high data usage a week into your billing cycle? Sprint customers have been having that happen and even having their entire phone shut off.

    If the Curve had a higher capability GPS chip, then I'd be upset with VZW if it was locked down. But I can't blame them for trying to keep costs (and prices) down by not allowing ad-hoc access to the network from these features. As soon as the Storm came out, complete with the second true dual-mode GPS unit (Bold was first), VZW allowed its use, because it would run on pure GPS mode & not require any data other than what was already downloaded to the phone. If they were trying to keep people reigned in to VZNav, why wasn't the Storm locked as well?

    Despite being hardware limited, the same GPS chip in the same phone works on a different carrier because of a marketing agreement?
    Yes. Follow the logic for a moment.

    Sprint has been trying (unsuccessfully) to retain market share. Last I heard, they had the highest negative churn in the industry. Because of this, they've been quietly overlooking data overages. This has led to network degradation and further customer unhappiness. It gets really bad when many Sprint users can't make a phone call on the first or even second attempt, instead getting "network busy, please try again later" intercepts. So they are now starting to crack down on the overages. If you tossed in extra database charges and large maps, this might put Sprint in the same league as VZW & refusing to allow it. But Google is Sprint-friendly and waives network access and assists in other ways. So, Google Maps can access the a-GPS chip.

    There are several third-party apps and some GPS servers which don't require database access fees, but the data access is still required. VZW tends to look for a uniform approach. In this case, they allow VZNav, since you pay for that. They also allow BB Maps, since you do have a BlackBerry and RIM optimized the maps for low bandwidth.

    I've heard tales from network engineers who specialize in bandwidth who tell me that for VZW to allow any third party app access to the a-GPS, the resulting costs would rise to a point of making VZW uncompetitive. Even without database access issues, the cost per line would rise an average of 8-10% across the board. Considering that VZW's per line profit is not in the number one or even number two position, they'd need to either degrade service or raise the monthly service rates of all customers. You might not have an issue paying 5-10% more just to have unrestricted GPS access, but what of the approximately 79,500,000 people who couldn't care less if they have GPS on their phone? Theirs would go up too.

    ______________________
    Was writing the following when I decided to respond directly to the above - so i combined them...
    ______________________

    From Wikipedia:
    A typical A-GPS-enabled cell phone will use a data connection (internet, or other) to contact the assistance server or a standard network connection for A-GPS information. If it also has functioning Autonomous or Standalone GPS, it may use standard GPS, which is sometimes slower on Time To First Fix, but does not lead to network dependent downsides, such a failure to work outside of network range, or charges for data traffic. Some A-GPS solutions do not have the option of falling back to standalone or autonomous GPS.
    Assisted GPS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    More

    Stupid Data charges on GPS Phone - Turn Off AGPS Assisted GPS | Blog Marco

    Watch out for data charges on your GPS phone - Mobile Phones

    GPS vs aGPS | Eten Blog dot Com

    A little tidbit from this page (Mimzthings*::*Mobile Phone*::*Nokia Mobile Phone*::*Nokia Nseries*::*Nokia N96 Mobile phone - Grey) for the Nokia N96 tells us:

    A-GPS is a network dependant feature that requires a data plan. Additional charges may apply. Downloading satellite images may involve the transmission of large amounts of data through your service provider’s network. Contact your service provider for information about data transmission charges.

    You can whine & moan about it all day long, but the vast majority of VZW customers couldn't care less - so why would VZW choose to spend extra money to make a tiny number of people happy?

    $75 for a Freedom Keychain or under $100 for Garmin or TomTom units with much larger screens. My Garmin software was $80 and the factory nav systems in my cars were over $1000 each. If it bothers you that much, go try Sprint. They are much more expensive than you think and they are getting ready to lock things down as far as data-access, just like AT&T is in the process of doing. Too many people are trying to get away with things without paying.
    02-20-09 12:23 AM
  10. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Sorry for missing this one earlier. Working late & posting during crew breaks.
    Call me an idealist, but I feel like I'm doing Verizon Wireless a favor by allowing some of their highest paying customers to contact their executive offices directly with a reasonable feature request.
    I agree that it is a reasonable request. What I keep trying to do is get folks to understand there are hardware limitations that cause most of these issues.

    Unlike what a lot of people think, carrier demands play on mostly deaf ears with the manufacturers, unless that maker is LG or Samsung. The manufacturers come up with a concept and some options. A carrier can wish list off those options. When the Curve was conceived, dual-mode GPS chips were too power hungry & too expensive to make the design cut, so they weren't on the final product. A couple years later, the Bold & Storm got them because they became more efficient & cheaper. At the same time, we saw portable nav systems drop in price, from $500-$1000 to a range spanning $99-$500 or so.

    Still, even though the chip is more efficient, it is still power hungry. My single-mode Curve will go two days without a charge, while my dual-mode unit struggles to make it a day and a half with an extended battery.

    Every smartphone VZW offers that comes with a dual-mode chip allows third-party GPS software. It is the single-mode devices that are limited.

    So again, I do agree that we should have GPS capability on our BlackBerrys. We just have to wait until the new Bold/Curve2 hits with the better chip.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-20-09 01:45 AM
  11. papperclippy's Avatar
    That was a reason why I chose to buy the curve recently, I thought the GPS was unlocked. I obviously read it wrong and now see that only bb maps is unlocked. Now all I have to do is figure out how to get directions to places in bb maps like i did using vz navigator.
    02-20-09 10:54 AM
  12. jrd231psu's Avatar
    TwinsX2Dad - I didn't know why the Curve had GPS locked, but your explanation was outstanding. It makes complete sense that the Curve would have the GPS locked down. If the network infrastructure can't handle that kind of traffic and the costs would be significant, from a business perspective (and lets remember that VZW is a business looking for a profit first, not a business looking to do whatever you want them to), it's reasonable that they lock it down to keep costs down for the majority of customers and themselves rather than satisfy the demand of the minority.

    Once again, thanks for the explanation.
    02-20-09 01:47 PM
  13. Evermore707's Avatar
    To an extent, yes. Assisted-GPS requires heavy data connectivity. Even those people paying for tethering and who can use a-GPS on other carriers are hitting the data caps when running GPS software. how happy would you be if you were cut off for high data usage a week into your billing cycle? Sprint customers have been having that happen and even having their entire phone shut off.

    If the Curve had a higher capability GPS chip, then I'd be upset with VZW if it was locked down. But I can't blame them for trying to keep costs (and prices) down by not allowing ad-hoc access to the network from these features. As soon as the Storm came out, complete with the second true dual-mode GPS unit (Bold was first), VZW allowed its use, because it would run on pure GPS mode & not require any data other than what was already downloaded to the phone. If they were trying to keep people reigned in to VZNav, why wasn't the Storm locked as well?

    Yes. Follow the logic for a moment.

    Sprint has been trying (unsuccessfully) to retain market share. Last I heard, they had the highest negative churn in the industry. Because of this, they've been quietly overlooking data overages. This has led to network degradation and further customer unhappiness. It gets really bad when many Sprint users can't make a phone call on the first or even second attempt, instead getting "network busy, please try again later" intercepts. So they are now starting to crack down on the overages. If you tossed in extra database charges and large maps, this might put Sprint in the same league as VZW & refusing to allow it. But Google is Sprint-friendly and waives network access and assists in other ways. So, Google Maps can access the a-GPS chip.

    There are several third-party apps and some GPS servers which don't require database access fees, but the data access is still required. VZW tends to look for a uniform approach. In this case, they allow VZNav, since you pay for that. They also allow BB Maps, since you do have a BlackBerry and RIM optimized the maps for low bandwidth.

    I've heard tales from network engineers who specialize in bandwidth who tell me that for VZW to allow any third party app access to the a-GPS, the resulting costs would rise to a point of making VZW uncompetitive. Even without database access issues, the cost per line would rise an average of 8-10% across the board. Considering that VZW's per line profit is not in the number one or even number two position, they'd need to either degrade service or raise the monthly service rates of all customers. You might not have an issue paying 5-10% more just to have unrestricted GPS access, but what of the approximately 79,500,000 people who couldn't care less if they have GPS on their phone? Theirs would go up too.

    ______________________
    Was writing the following when I decided to respond directly to the above - so i combined them...
    ______________________

    From Wikipedia:
    A typical A-GPS-enabled cell phone will use a data connection (internet, or other) to contact the assistance server or a standard network connection for A-GPS information. If it also has functioning Autonomous or Standalone GPS, it may use standard GPS, which is sometimes slower on Time To First Fix, but does not lead to network dependent downsides, such a failure to work outside of network range, or charges for data traffic. Some A-GPS solutions do not have the option of falling back to standalone or autonomous GPS.
    Assisted GPS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    More

    Stupid Data charges on GPS Phone - Turn Off AGPS Assisted GPS | Blog Marco

    Watch out for data charges on your GPS phone - Mobile Phones

    GPS vs aGPS | Eten Blog dot Com

    A little tidbit from this page (Mimzthings*::*Mobile Phone*::*Nokia Mobile Phone*::*Nokia Nseries*::*Nokia N96 Mobile phone - Grey) for the Nokia N96 tells us:

    A-GPS is a network dependant feature that requires a data plan. Additional charges may apply. Downloading satellite images may involve the transmission of large amounts of data through your service providers network. Contact your service provider for information about data transmission charges.

    You can whine & moan about it all day long, but the vast majority of VZW customers couldn't care less - so why would VZW choose to spend extra money to make a tiny number of people happy?

    $75 for a Freedom Keychain or under $100 for Garmin or TomTom units with much larger screens. My Garmin software was $80 and the factory nav systems in my cars were over $1000 each. If it bothers you that much, go try Sprint. They are much more expensive than you think and they are getting ready to lock things down as far as data-access, just like AT&T is in the process of doing. Too many people are trying to get away with things without paying.
    I see your point but wonder just what are the actual data statisics or amounts. This can't be that much data going back and forth. Slacker radio would use more data transfer in 1 hour than AGPS in 6- wouldn't it? GPS is nothing more than timers and numbers. If nothing else , why not have a GPS unlock fee only for BB users who opt to use this feature?
    02-20-09 03:41 PM
  14. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    The actual data amounts would vary depending on the application. With the wide variety of apps out there, I am sure we may never really be sure as to the actual amounts.

    I do know that the costs can be quite high. I've seen data bills reaching into the hundreds of dollars for traveling friends. In fact, one of my company's old AT&T WinMo phones went on a trip to Montana for a week & we were contacted by AT&T security early last year because it suddenly spiked in data charges. Individual had a VZW card in his laptop & didn't use his phone for Internet - half the time his SMS & phone didn't work. But he did use his Mapquest software with the internal GPS. Bill showed $310 in data fees. All he used was GPS and he was only gone eight days. We replaced the AT&T devices a few months later with VZW phones.

    So if that is any indication, it isn't cheap.

    I could see an extra charge for GPS data, but how would it be separated from the "unlimited" portion of the data usage? Would it be flat-rated, where all customers might see increased costs due to the activities of a few or would it be based on usage? The first would be unfair to those who didn't use it or who paid extra for VZNav/TeleNav. The latter could really cause customer service nightmares when the uninformed get hit with high data charges on their "unlimited" plans.

    I know I'd not want to be on the VZW end in implementing something like this, either in marketing or in customer service.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-20-09 06:03 PM
  15. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    I see your point but wonder just what are the actual data statisics or amounts. This can't be that much data going back and forth. Slacker radio would use more data transfer in 1 hour than AGPS in 6- wouldn't it? GPS is nothing more than timers and numbers. If nothing else , why not have a GPS unlock fee only for BB users who opt to use this feature?
    if data was truly the case, they would just have a fee to unlock it. U asked the right question as far as "HOW MUCH" data is really being used. I admit I don't know the answer but I can bet that slacker uses way more in a shorter time than the aGPS will in a longer time. In any case, I believe its locked for a few reasons that have little to do with data assistance from its network.

    First, Verizon was trying to hold its monopoly in its VZ Nav service for a long time. Its a monopoly that is changing as with many things that have "CHANGED" in verizon's past. Second, the storm is unlocked, partly due to that dual mode, but none the less, it is unlocked! I believe Verizon is still trying to sell storms and in order to do that, u need to show that the phone has a capability that others do not. The same way that they were late coming out with 4.5 because they wanted to sell out a few more storms to show unique html email capability
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 02-20-09 at 06:10 PM.
    02-20-09 06:05 PM
  16. dmiller622's Avatar
    Google Maps works on VZW Curves, but without the accuracy. Google has a marketing agreement with Sprint.

    Its funny that as soon as RIM dropped their database access fees, BB Maps opened up for us.

    Here's something that might infuriate you. My Curve has a dual-mode GPS in it. Supposedly just a few batches of Canadian-origin 8330 units got them due to a shortage of the single-mode chips. My Garmin software works well on this phone, but my other Curve needs a puck. Both are on VZW.

    Oh no - my kids' T-Mobile Curves won't work without a puck either. They are GPS & not WiFi units.

    Buy what you will, but without an agreement, Curves are single-mode & as such, will not work well with third party GPS apps.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    How can I tell if I have a Canadian origin 8330
    02-20-09 11:27 PM
  17. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    How can I tell if I have a Canadian origin 8330
    Remove the battery & look for the sticker - it should either say "Assembled in Canada" or "Assembled in Mexico."

    I believe the majority are assembled in Canada.

    A little more info on what I mentioned regarding the dual-mode chip. From what I was told, when RIM first released the 8330, there was a huge demand for them - much like the Storm a couple months ago. There were some parts shortages. The Canadian assembly was cranked up and a few alternative parts sources were used until the supply caught up with demand.

    If this is fully true (I respect the VZW source who told me, plus it makes sense), then later units were all returned to original spec and if you recently got your Curve, you're probably out of luck.
    02-21-09 12:47 AM
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