[doomedromance]

Is there a technical reason why the sensor size cannot be increased, instead of increasing megapixels ?

Yes. It won't fit into the desired size of the device.

Heres a chart of different sensors.
The APS are what's in the Canon Rebel series and 50D and Nikon DSLRs except for the Nikon D700 and D3.
Full frame is what film cameras, Canon 5d and 1d, and Nikon D700 and D3 are and the biggest one is medium format cameras (the 10 grand and up ones).
The average person really wouldn't need more than 6mp because chances are they wont print anything larger than that.
Then when you get down to that little tiny box, that's what's most likely in your cell phone. Do you see the difference in putting 12mp in an APS sensor and in a cell phone camera.
Without enlarging the size of a phone it's impossible. The only thing that makes it better is technology advances.
And that leaves out the most important factor. The lens. You can have the best and biggest sensor every invented, but if you have "eyes" of a cell phone camera then your picture will still look like crap. Look at the difference between a $2-3k prime lens and that $2-300 18-55mm zoom kit lens. On the same body, there is no comparison. That prime will look sharper, clearer, cleaner, and have less distortion by a long shot.

[blackmannx]

Is there a technical reason why the sensor size cannot be increased, instead of increasing megapixels ?

Bigger sensor.. more cost.. that being said the tour does take really nice pics.. and with the simplified hardware the lag on the shutter is almost gone..

[Crayons15]

too bad the shutter lag isn't all the way gone! but i'll take almost gone for now

[blackmannx]

I dont consider any camera phone to not have some sort of sw related lag.. the storm is rather sad with the several seconds it takes.. but even the super high MP devices have to focus and that takes a moment... otherwise you get BURRYCAM!!!

[plyallstar]

I thought it was 3.2mp. Am I wrong?

it is a 3.2 mp camera

[mjbesen310]

too bad the shutter lag isn't all the way gone! but i'll take almost gone for now

it can't be instant due to its auto focus. All in all though its a lot faster then the storms camra

[darko m]

So more memory/processor speed/screen resolution and such all dont matter to you. you can still do the same things on your current phone. opps.. except take pictures! thats not my point though..

my point is.. hows that 15 in crt display, 10 gig harddrive, and pentium 2 comp with 256 mb of ram on windows 95 holding up? i mean.. new computers on flashy lcd's dont really do anything different right? sure they handle apps faster and have more room for more apps... look nicer on the lcd.. but functionally.. no difference right?

oh whats that? you have a dual core on an lcd monitor with 300gb of hardrive space and 2+gb of ram? cmon.. tell you dont.. and then I will agree that you dont need the faster better phone.. stick with your 8830.

Problem with your argument is both BlackBerrys are running the same dated OS (which you compared to Windows 95), and the Tour's memory, etc improvements aren't 10x better like the computers you compare.

So, the Tour is like a marginally better computer, running a dated OS that was running just fine on computers with weaker specs (8830). Who cares how much faster, how much more memory, etc it is if it's performing the same old tasks, that, last I checked, the 8830 does just fine.

Look, I love a new device, but it sounds like RIM has all of you by the balls. This phone doesn't do much of anything better than 2+ year old BlackBerry and it's improvements certainly aren't worth $500. Sure you can get it for $200, but then the carrier has you by the balls - I prefer the freedom of being out of contract.

You guys getting so excited for these marginally better phones gives the company no incentive to make REAL changes to new models.

[12MaNy]

..like I said, the only real upgrade is the camera. The things you listed in no way will help me send/receive texts/emails/bbms.

Another real upgrade would be a new web os... or wifi... things like more memory, etc. don't really matter to me.

If your not impressed with the Tour, then you should stick with your 8830. However, the 9630 is a HUGE improvement over the 8830 (processor, onboard memory, screen resolution, speaker, keyboard, camera, UI, form factor, OS.......etc.) Plus with an updated UI, your email/SMS/BBM experience will be enhanced as well.

[ihawkeyes]

going to os .148 on the storm made a huge difference in my storm picture response. Much faster and pictures are great, for a phone.
Just my opinion.

[Teksu]

Calling me a "noob" speaks volumes about your maturity.

I've been a BlackBerry user for over 3 years. I mean it's great that RIM has faithful customers like you salivating at every new model that very rarely has a real worthwhile upgrade. The Bold and new Curve with wifi are great devices. Call me pessimistic, but I am not going to get overly excited for the Tour when my 8830 can do everything it can do.

1) its faster - no complaints about the speed my 8830 send/receives emails/texts/bbms
2) it has more memory - don't care.
3) it has a better speaker phone - don't care.
4) it has a better keyboard - this is your opinion, I have zero complaints about the 8830s keyboard. in fact I more often than not type on it without even looking at the keys
5) it has a better screen - don't really care
6) its as newer software - I'm running v4.5...messed around with v5 and didn't really see the big deal

7) If your looking for a digital camera then buy a camera, not a phone - I have a digital camera, but I don't carry it with me every where. 7+ years in and you'd think a phone/pda on the market would have a camera in it that can replace my digital camera. It's absurd we accept this laziness and greed from these companies we are so loyal to. Shelling out $500 for the Tour so I can take crappy pictures? No thanks.

Im very happy that your are satisfied with the current phone you have. it sounds to me that there isnt anything that RIM or anyone else could do to make you want to drop your 8830. and thats cool... i guess. more for the people who want one.

in the mean time, the 8830 forum is here
http://forums.crackberry.com/f61/

[Ronindan]

Problem with your argument is both BlackBerrys are running the same dated OS (which you compared to Windows 95), and the Tour's memory, etc improvements aren't 10x better like the computers you compare.

So, the Tour is like a marginally better computer, running a dated OS that was running just fine on computers with weaker specs (8830). Who cares how much faster, how much more memory, etc it is if it's performing the same old tasks, that, last I checked, the 8830 does just fine.

Look, I love a new device, but it sounds like RIM has all of you by the balls. This phone doesn't do much of anything better than 2+ year old BlackBerry and it's improvements certainly aren't worth $500. Sure you can get it for $200, but then the carrier has you by the balls - I prefer the freedom of being out of contract.

You guys getting so excited for these marginally better phones gives the company no incentive to make REAL changes to new models.

You started off asking about the reasons why cameras on phones have have not progressed to your liking.

And all of a sudden you are are arguing with people on the Tour being the same as aany other blackberry out there.

If you don't like the tour fine; that is your opinion-but you are just wasting space by arguing with the people here in the Tour sub-forum.

[darko m]

Im very happy that your are satisfied with the current phone you have. it sounds to me that there isnt anything that RIM or anyone else could do to make you want to drop your 8830. and thats cool... i guess. more for the people who want one.

in the mean time, the 8830 forum is here
http://forums.crackberry.com/f61/

So this forum is only for people who are blindly obsessed with the Tour?

For the sake of transparency I should admit that I'm going to try the new Tour, but my expectations are not very high. I find it funny so many of you are listing qualities/improvements of the Tour that really don't make much difference in your overall experience. You sound like sheep. And then attack me because I'm pointing out facts...nothing this phone does is worth upgrading at the cost of $500.

PS: Please stop listing "better keyboard," as it makes your argument appear very weak.

The argument started off asking if the camera was good because if I'm going to pay $500 to upgrade from my 8830 that's the only improvement that really matters. If the camera is crap why even waste my time/money on this thing?

A lot of you are simply upgrading because it's the new, good looking BlackBerry...like people are going to see it and be jealous or something.

[Parafly]

I dunno but I very very very rarely use my camera on my phone. I have an SD800 for a walkabout P&S and an Rebel XTi for when I want good pictures. I just can't stand the quality of pics coming from camera phones.

I have a pearl right now which just takes abysmal photos. If this camera actually takes 1/2 way decent photos, I may use it more regularly.

[Teksu]

So this forum is only for people who are blindly obsessed with the Tour?

For the sake of transparency I should admit that I'm going to try the new Tour, but my expectations are not very high. I find it funny so many of you are listing qualities/improvements of the Tour that really don't make much difference in your overall experience. You sound like sheep. And then attack me because I'm pointing out facts...nothing this phone does is worth upgrading at the cost of $500.

PS: Please stop listing "better keyboard," as it makes your argument appear very weak.

The argument started off asking if the camera was good because if I'm going to pay $500 to upgrade from my 8830 that's the only improvement that really matters. If the camera is crap why even waste my time/money on this thing?

A lot of you are simply upgrading because it's the new, good looking BlackBerry...like people are going to see it and be jealous or something.

that last post of mine was a bit harsh, i apologize.

you are correct, the camera is not going to blow your mind. nothing under 8MP is going to take great pic's.

and yes, other than the camera, there is nothing that your BB cannot do that this one can, yet. with OS 5.0 (wich will not be available for the 8830 i believe) BBM will handle SMS if you like, and allow for threaded sms.

The tour will be my 2nd blackberry, as i am upgrading from a pearl 8130. everything this phone has to offer is a true upgrade to me, and i cant see why anyone wouldnt want it for being faster and having more memory.

I work in IT, and have played with many different BB's, including the 8830, and the bold. the bolds keyboard is much better in my opinion and this is why i list it as a better keyboard. like everything it is subjective to the users opinion.

if the only thing that you are concerned about is the camera, then i dont see this phone as a viable upgrade path

[Tdubby]

Doesn't the 8830 not have a camera? So that's an upgrade there . I personally want more memory for apps and the cool new OS and high resolution screen.. Do i need it? No my curve does pretty well do I want it yes. It's mainly i'd like to have the new 5.0 OS when it comes out with the new BBM really.

[Karamba]

Megapixels do matter, though. Unfortunately, as pixel count goes up, image quality goes down. The more pixels you cram onto the same tiny sensor, the more grainy pictures look and the worse it performs in anything less than bright sunlight.

Not exactly. It is all about the overall sensor area and how large is your lens - it is all about the photon count.

If you have twice as many pixels, you can re sample down, and get the same same noise level. Or you can use an advanced denoising algorithm, like Noise Ninja plugin, and get a nice denoised picture while preserving a lot of details.

TO put in other way - for the same lens and the same sensor size, 10M pixels denoised and resampled to 5M will potentially give you a better picture then 5M pixels.

[Karamba]

you are correct, the camera is not going to blow your mind. nothing under 8MP is going to take great pic's.

5M sensor that I had in my Olympus E1 was giving me much better picture, even printed to quite large size then any 8M+ point and shoot can ever achieve.

[EPH1.3]

I dont consider any camera phone to not have some sort of sw related lag.. the storm is rather sad with the several seconds it takes.. but even the super high MP devices have to focus and that takes a moment... otherwise you get BURRYCAM!!!

Agreed with most of your statement but the lag on the Storm changed noticeably with OS .148 as stated by Tappsmith:

"tappsmith going to os .148 on the storm made a huge difference in my storm picture response. Much faster and pictures are great, for a phone.
Just my opinion."

The Storm lag now is about the same as many small sensor point and shoot cameras by Canon, Nikon, Panasonic etc. As long as you let the camera pre-focus holding down shutter release part way and then shoot.

I use my Storm in business in place of the HP 3.2MP digital company camera for convenience and it takes just pictures just as good for the intended purpose using small file size photos for web publishing and such. Today a customer was impressed by the exterior and interior photos I took with my Storm (compared to his iPhone). I expect the Tour camera to be as good or better when I replace my 8130 with it. If I am needing to print real photos...out comes the real digital camera with a larger sensor and real glass for a lens.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

So this forum is only for people who are blindly obsessed with the Tour?

For the sake of transparency I should admit that I'm going to try the new Tour, but my expectations are not very high. I find it funny so many of you are listing qualities/improvements of the Tour that really don't make much difference in your overall experience. You sound like sheep. And then attack me because I'm pointing out facts...nothing this phone does is worth upgrading at the cost of $500.

PS: Please stop listing "better keyboard," as it makes your argument appear very weak.

The argument started off asking if the camera was good because if I'm going to pay $500 to upgrade from my 8830 that's the only improvement that really matters. If the camera is crap why even waste my time/money on this thing?

A lot of you are simply upgrading because it's the new, good looking BlackBerry...like people are going to see it and be jealous or something.

The 9630 is 3 times the device the 8830 is, no question. And it is a past due and welcomed upgrade for many.
I could cite many points but will narrow it to a few. First, the overall speed of the device has improved greatly, from simply moving around within the OS itself to browsing on the interwebs with Rev A. The quadband(upgraded from dualband) edge radio, is much better than the previous model and will work much better when abroad plus the addition of the single UMTS band. The ability to also use 3G technology when abroad is very nice.
The new LCD is a nice upgrade as well, as well as the new videos the 9630 supports versus the old 8830. Again, for corporate users, have a great keyboard like the 9000's is welcomed also.
These are just a few, but there is no question the 9630 is a much much better device than the 8830. Those who upgrade from the 8830 will never regret doing so.

[j_coyster]

Problem with your argument is both BlackBerrys are running the same dated OS (which you compared to Windows 95), and the Tour's memory, etc improvements aren't 10x better like the computers you compare.

So, the Tour is like a marginally better computer, running a dated OS that was running just fine on computers with weaker specs (8830). Who cares how much faster, how much more memory, etc it is if it's performing the same old tasks, that, last I checked, the 8830 does just fine.

Look, I love a new device, but it sounds like RIM has all of you by the balls. This phone doesn't do much of anything better than 2+ year old BlackBerry and it's improvements certainly aren't worth $500. Sure you can get it for $200, but then the carrier has you by the balls - I prefer the freedom of being out of contract.

You guys getting so excited for these marginally better phones gives the company no incentive to make REAL changes to new models.

This post made me laugh. The part about the carrier having you by the balls especially. Look, You seem to have been with the same carrier for quite some time which would suggest that you are happy with the service they provide. You say you "prefer the freedom of being out of contract." why? do you plan on leaving? i'm sure you will stay with them for another two years based on your history with them. And since you have the 8830, aren't you eligible for the $200 price for an upgrade? so why are you saying you would pay $500. I know that i would not pay $500 for a phone.

Just found it amusing.

[trebb]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to use the upgrade price, and then if you wish to cancel, pay the ETF? I'm not sure how much the ETF is, but I don't think it's more than $300.

The phone is an upgrade in every aspect. If you don't want the upgrades, then don't buy the phone. It's as simple as that. Do not go around this forum trying to get other people to see your twisted and stupid view.