10-13-10 10:03 PM
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  1. mtmouse's Avatar
    First let me say, I do love the Torch, but RIM has to pull up their socks on Quality Control.

    After much anticipation, I finally received my BB Torch from Rogers and loved it the moment I opened it, but right away I had issues with the Micro USB connection; it seems there is a loose connection and I was having issues connecting to Blackberry Desktop Manager. Sometimes it would connect other times it wouldn't. If I wiggled the plug sometimes it would work and sometimes it wouldn't.

    I contacted Rogers Technical Support and after wasting 4 hours of my life, they finally advised me they would send out a replacement.

    Well the replacement Torch arrived yesterday, I opened it up, slipped the battery in, started to test it out before I tried to switch things over and low and behold, the spacebar dead. No clicky clicky.

    You can have the best product in the world, but if your Quality Control Department doesn't catch the garbage before it goes out the door, it will kill your reputation.

    Sorry RIM, I am a Canadian that, in the past has been proud to say you are a Canadian Company, but this experience is leading me to believe you are 'dropping the ball'.

    I realize the larger you become, the harder it is to manage Quality Control, but remember; Quality Control is what every great company's reputation is built on.

    PS. Now I have to wait until Rogers receives my second defective Torch back, before they will start to ship me(hopefully a working) phone.
    Last edited by mtmouse; 10-09-10 at 04:22 PM.
    10-09-10 01:56 PM
  2. vistate1's Avatar
    sorry to hear this. As a Canadian with a capital "C" - i love my torch. and have had no issues. I hope your 3rd torch works out. I hope i never need to replace my torch due to defect. only for upgrades
    10-09-10 04:08 PM
  3. papped's Avatar
    I realize the larger you become, the harder it is to manage Quality Control, but remember; Quality Control is what every great company's reputation is built on.
    I'd have to say this is no longer true... HTC has quite poor QC (always has) yet they are growing and growing and their rep is still fine.

    People will put up with poor QC easily if you give them other hooks (Apple for example).
    10-09-10 04:11 PM
  4. SmakBerry's Avatar
    the biggest problem I see is that we live in a high cost region, therefore a lot if not most of the manufacturing is done is low cost regions such as Mexico. For a Canadian or American company to stay viable this is pretty much a must.
    I'm not saying it's an excuse for poor quality, however, it's a common issue.
    I used to work in a telecommunications manufacturing plant as a buyer, and this was what I saw from day to day. Even though we'd send out our engineers and quality control folks it was still a major issue especially with trying to keep products at a price point that would attract more customers.

    Unfortunately the company I worked for (Nortel) has gone belly up. I'd really hate to see this fate for RIM and agree that they should do more than what my company did to keep their business viable.
    10-09-10 04:22 PM
  5. papped's Avatar
    They have plants in both hungary and canada as well though... And defects have been shown regardless of the plant the phone came from.

    Mexico is not an exception.
    10-09-10 04:28 PM
  6. papped's Avatar
    Also this is why Apple doesn't take risks in their phone designs. No moving parts, no buttons everywhere, no sliders. Basically trying to minimize as much potential problems as possible. Also makes parts procurement a lot easier.

    But it's also extremely boring and there is no choice to speak of in phone design... So one involves risk but offers choice, the other doesn't but basically means you re-release the same phone form factor every year.
    10-09-10 04:30 PM
  7. SmakBerry's Avatar
    I never said Mexico was the only culprit, it was an example. As I also stated, to keep their price points in check with consumers, some if not all has been moved to low cost regions.
    I also said it's no excuse, there are issues no matter where things are produced, but the masses are smaller where there is more control IE: Canada and USA.
    Bottom line is, they really do have to tighten up a bit even if it means taking a bit of a loss in the short term to make a bigger gain in the long term.
    I want to see RIM succeed and stay viable, but if they get a bad rep because of quality issues then it's going to affect the bottom line in the long term.
    Geez, hope that all makes sense, I'm hopped up on cold pills haha.
    10-09-10 04:35 PM
  8. maxiang's Avatar
    Anything mass produced could use improvements in QC.
    So I'm agreeing with you, in my own way

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-09-10 04:38 PM
  9. SmakBerry's Avatar
    As far as Apple goes, yes, they have been very successful with their products, but I personally also find them boring when you basically get the same phone release after release with an added feature. They have pretty much perfected their design and run with it.
    That's where I do think RIM is ahead, there is more selection to attract more users. I hope they don't change this and make one phone with a little change year after year.
    10-09-10 04:40 PM
  10. -Paradigm-'s Avatar
    Hey,
    Quick question, when you phones Rogers the first time, did they send you out a new Torch before you had to send your old one in?
    Just curious because I'm in a similar situation.
    10-09-10 05:03 PM
  11. SmakBerry's Avatar
    Hey,
    Quick question, when you phones Rogers the first time, did they send you out a new Torch before you had to send your old one in?
    Just curious because I'm in a similar situation.
    They send you the new phone first, included is a prepaid return sticker to return the old phone.
    10-09-10 05:09 PM
  12. -Paradigm-'s Avatar
    Thank you.

    Do they send out refurbs like a certain fruit competitor? lol.
    10-09-10 05:36 PM
  13. SmakBerry's Avatar
    Thank you.

    Do they send out refurbs like a certain fruit competitor? lol.
    Yes, they do
    10-09-10 05:46 PM
  14. zaandam24's Avatar
    Thank you.

    Do they send out refurbs like a certain fruit competitor? lol.
    after 30 days refurbs begin...but within 20 you get a DOA = Brand new
    10-09-10 06:02 PM
  15. salexs11's Avatar
    I'm having some "quality" issues with the Torch as well. My screen teeters when shut, and when open, it flat out rattles.
    I've already contacted Rogers. They're sending me a new one.

    Not all the design issues we as the end consumer identify are necessarily problems with "quality". Often, the design just doesn't meet our personal expectations. However, this gap between actual and expected quality is also in itself problematic for any product producing company. Not meeting expectations is a sure fire way to lose customers. For me, the screen of the Torch should not wiggle, rattle, jiggle, or wobble - especially when it's a $600 device. However, I do recognize that the sliding mechanism has moving parts and as such, some "give", a) can and should be expected, and b) was probably engineered into the design (with pre-determined ranges of acceptability). That's distinguishable however from a key or button not working. That's clearly a quality issue.

    The only feasible ways for RIM to actually measure and enforce quality at the factory level is probably through statistical means like random/batch sampling and the employment of certain management techniques like TQM. Unfortunately, that's still not a guarantee of quality. They know this. Carriers know this. That's why they have return and replacement programs.

    As Smack alluded to above, we live in a world where business decisions are driven primarily by the profit motive. That is a great thing. It ensures that the beer I buy at the supermarket is supplied by efficient producers at a reasonable price. Yes, a beer with a crooked label will at times slip through the cracks and make it into one of my 24s. But that's to be expected. In some ways, that's the price I pay in order to get great tasting crisp Canadian beer at a decent price. If the beer companies were to inspect every bottle, you can be sure that they will pass that cost onto the the consumers, which would result in... absolute tragedy (but ironically, probably safer highways). A beer label, a wobbly screen, that can be expected.

    My point is this: A crooked beer label, a wobbly screen, yes, this sort of thing can be expected. Are we wrong to have high expectations for quality? No - absolutely not. When a device is not functioning as advertised or not functioning within reasonable expectations of performance (like a button not working, or a light leak under the screen), yes, those are quality problems that consumers should not have to face nor expect to face. Yes, consumers should be compensated for these types of problems. RIM (or indirectly through the carriers) does this. They have customer support and replacement programs. Sometimes, this is all they can do - while still bringing the product to consumers at the great price of 199.99 with a 3 year renewal. ha...

    Unfortunately, despite the problem being patently obvious, it is not always clear who is to blame. It could have been a design flaw from the get-go, or it could have been an assembly line worker in a foreign country (not employed directly by RIM) neglecting to run through his check list. It could have been the supplier of crisp mountain water neglecting to check the acidity levels in the water before supplying it to Molson.

    The "quality" issues i'm facing with my torch are due to my own high expectations. Maybe i should lower them. Maybe I should expect less from RIM in the future. Maybe I should start buying Sony Ericson.

    Moral: In the end, it's important to always remember the old saying: Cabeat emptor. (Buyer Beware!)
    10-09-10 07:27 PM
  16. salexs11's Avatar
    that's "Caveat emptor"
    10-09-10 07:31 PM
  17. Cadillax's Avatar
    @mtmouse, i too have the losse micro USB issue. I'm pretty disappointed.
    Every blackberry I buy has a problem. My Tour has the unresponsive trackball issue.

    Sigh, I'll be sending my Torch back for another one next week.
    10-09-10 08:07 PM
  18. GG1's Avatar
    the biggest problem I see is that we live in a high cost region, therefore a lot if not most of the manufacturing is done is low cost regions such as Mexico. For a Canadian or American company to stay viable this is pretty much a must.
    I'm not saying it's an excuse for poor quality, however, it's a common issue.
    I used to work in a telecommunications manufacturing plant as a buyer, and this was what I saw from day to day. Even though we'd send out our engineers and quality control folks it was still a major issue especially with trying to keep products at a price point that would attract more customers.

    Unfortunately the company I worked for (Nortel) has gone belly up. I'd really hate to see this fate for RIM and agree that they should do more than what my company did to keep their business viable.
    ^^^ I agree 100% with everything you said, and also lost some $$ with Nortel =(

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-09-10 08:48 PM
  19. pcgizmo#IM's Avatar
    The best devices I've had were Canadian and Hungarian made. The worst were made in Mexico. Hoping RIM wises up and closes that one down.
    10-09-10 09:04 PM
  20. JDukeOSBB's Avatar
    I am sorry you have had such issues! But nearly every review given of the Torch said the quality of construction was the one thing the torch had right (that and battery life).

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-09-10 09:13 PM
  21. SmakBerry's Avatar
    ^^^ I agree 100% with everything you said, and also lost some $$ with Nortel =(

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Sorry to hear you lost money, I did too. Almost lost my pension and severance as well.
    10-09-10 09:18 PM
  22. IchigoMochi's Avatar
    Also this is why Apple doesn't take risks in their phone designs. No moving parts, no buttons everywhere, no sliders. Basically trying to minimize as much potential problems as possible. Also makes parts procurement a lot easier.

    But it's also extremely boring and there is no choice to speak of in phone design... So one involves risk but offers choice, the other doesn't but basically means you re-release the same phone form factor every year.
    The simple phone designs haven't really made Apple immune from problems. It's definitely simplified things and they don't have to deal with wobble like us, but they managed to make a few flaws in design like signal attenuation and reported iPhone 4 back panels cracking when you use slide-on cases.

    Going back to QC and the Torch...I agree that RIM needs to step up their game. I can forgive the American launch of the Torch with .141 preloaded since they came up .214/.225/.246 quickly enough, but things like extremely loose sliding mechs and button panels coming off are ridiculous.

    I didn't get a "perfect" Torch until I got a new-looking refurbished one after I had to file an insurance claim on my second Torch when its glass broke. I'm willing to bet someone had it sent in for having loose buttons and wobble, because right now it truly feels like a tank. If only it had been done right the first time.
    10-09-10 09:41 PM
  23. xPapz's Avatar
    when i got my torch, i had a track pad problem; it kept on scrolling to the bottom left of the screen. I had it replaced and now I am a very satisfied torch owner
    10-09-10 10:33 PM
  24. techjunkieforlife's Avatar
    Well I would like to add some thoughts as someone who makes a living from manufacturing quality, there is no such thing as 100%. It's not possible and not expected that every unit all things considered would be perfect, you aim for it but it's not realistic in mass production.

    RIM Only knows it's returns and reasoning, it's not recalling product or revealing anything. To suggest low quality from personal experience is flawed from the sample group of 1, luck will just play what you get and not represent their true quality as what you may consider an issue may just be as expected by the manufacturer, or within tolerance shall we say. If you totaled up every Crackberry poster in a poll and forced everyone to vote it's still a bad poll without exact detail of every "quality issue" specified and have RIM state if thats a returnable issue.

    Panansonic does not make bad TV's, but if you get a bad one you sure think ill of them and it's the nature of the beast. I think really it's how a company responds to a quality issue, but in wireless you are buying from a carrier and get contracted in putting a third party with their intrests between you and the manufacturer. The Tour trackball would be a good example of a RIM quality issue, where the odd defective trackpad is an acceptable defect that falls within quality targets.

    No company wants to make bad product, they would never sell anything but people have to accept that one dodgy trackpad in a thousand from an outside vendor does not equal bad quality but just the facts life. Just because you got two of them does not mean the percentage of failure is any higher.
    10-10-10 12:05 AM
  25. thymaster's Avatar
    Are you kidding me. Apple have it's share of quality issues too but it's not publicly known because Apple keep their bad side tight lipped.

    Two of my friends just bought iPhone 4 and within the first day, they already encounter problems. One of them had a microphone problem where people can barely hear him and if you could hear him, it echos. My other friend found out his accelerometer didn't' work when he tried to text in landscape mode. Both of them couldn't exchange for a new iPhone because there is no DOA policy in affect so they both have to make an appointment to see an Apple service guy to have a look at it 4 days later.

    Anything made in China is just as bad as Mexico, Hungry or any other third world country.

    I have to admit though Apple strategy on having complaints hush hush is good and services is fair.

    As far as Apple goes, yes, they have been very successful with their products, but I personally also find them boring when you basically get the same phone release after release with an added feature. They have pretty much perfected their design and run with it.
    That's where I do think RIM is ahead, there is more selection to attract more users. I hope they don't change this and make one phone with a little change year after year.
    10-10-10 01:23 AM
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