01-13-11 12:54 PM
86 123 ...
tools
  1. thebikeman02's Avatar
    I am not trying to get flamed or start a fan boy war here but I know a lot of at&t store employees and they all say that the Torch has a high return rate. It's lower now since the official OS update a few weeks ago significantly addressed the lag issues but still high. I think the return issue is a perception issue especially at at&t. For better or worse, the i4 has changed the way people think about smartphones. Some consumers will base their decision to return or buy initially based on the i4. Once they choose a Torch, they will see someone with an i4 and want it. I think RIM has a fine platform but it's starting to lose any traction it had in the consumer field. Hands down for businesses, it's the best device. But I think RIM's problem is not that it has bad hardware or software, but perceptional that it's not apple or the iphone.
    12-30-10 11:11 PM
  2. escobar973's Avatar
    If you need to compare a phone to another phone... Then get the phone your comparing it to. Most Blackberry users who switch to the "latest and greatest" Blackberry out can live with whatever "issues" that new Blackberry has because they know RIM is likely to address them... It's the people that don't come from the "Blackberry world" that have to compare a device to the iPhone... Most Blackberry users don't compare their BB's with other devices, they mostly compare their BB's to other BB models...
    12-30-10 11:17 PM
  3. iN8ter's Avatar
    I am not trying to get flamed or start a fan boy war here but I know a lot of at&t store employees and they all say that the Torch has a high return rate. It's lower now since the official OS update a few weeks ago significantly addressed the lag issues but still high. I think the return issue is a perception issue especially at at&t. For better or worse, the i4 has changed the way people think about smartphones. Some consumers will base their decision to return or buy initially based on the i4. Once they choose a Torch, they will see someone with an i4 and want it. I think RIM has a fine platform but it's starting to lose any traction it had in the consumer field. Hands down for businesses, it's the best device. But I think RIM's problem is not that it has bad hardware or software, but perceptional that it's not apple or the iphone.
    RIM's back end platform is fine. Their smartphone OS is not fine.

    People bring them back because better products exist.

    It's not a secret that the torch was universally a disappointment. The only thing good about it is that the touchscreen actually made sense, compared to e.g. the Storm/Storm2.

    Aside from that it was a Palm Pre with a BB Keyboard and BBOS6, which is only marginally above Windows Mobile 6.5 as far as usability and consumer desire is concerned (below it if you're using something like an HD2 with HTC Sense skin, and HD2 hardware is way superior to torch despite it being almost a year old by the time the Torch launched).

    RIM needs better hardware and better form factors. Consumers simply aren't liking what they're putting out, especially now that so many are moving on to other platforms and there aren't that many people to "BBM" - the only redeeming feature of BBOS.
    Last edited by N8ter; 12-30-10 at 11:29 PM.
    12-30-10 11:18 PM
  4. luqman24's Avatar
    I am not trying to get flamed or start a fan boy war here but I know a lot of at&t store employees and they all say that the Torch has a high return rate. It's lower now since the official OS update a few weeks ago significantly addressed the lag issues but still high. I think the return issue is a perception issue especially at at&t. For better or worse, the i4 has changed the way people think about smartphones. Some consumers will base their decision to return or buy initially based on the i4. Once they choose a Torch, they will see someone with an i4 and want it. I think RIM has a fine platform but it's starting to lose any traction it had in the consumer field. Hands down for businesses, it's the best device. But I think RIM's problem is not that it has bad hardware or software, but perceptional that it's not apple or the iphone.
    Your talking about the ones who came from the iPhone to BB and back to the iPhone and are under the Steve Jobs mind control. Sorry where the loyal type of bb users and have the patience to live with the issues and can wait for a solution. Thanks for the nice story though

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-30-10 11:23 PM
  5. aznlgcy's Avatar
    Love the story. Can easily live with some issues. Most previous Apple users that try to switch to BB just find flaws in the Blackberry and will never be happy with its performance when comparing it to the iPhones.

    Short story is if Steve Jobs told everyone to kiss his feet more than likely most Apple users will. Its just Steve Jobs influence on his target market and once they go Apple they almost never choose any other smartphone..... Just my 2 cents
    12-30-10 11:29 PM
  6. iN8ter's Avatar
    Your talking about the ones who came from the iPhone to BB and back to the iPhone and are under the Steve Jobs mind control. Sorry where the loyal type of bb users and have the patience to live with the issues and can wait for a solution. Thanks for the nice story though

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    There is no way to add 720p Recording, a Bigger Screen, higher screen resolution to the torch. The phone is crippled by hardware, and BBOS6 simply wasn't good enough. It looks like BBOS5 with a webkit browser (obviously it has more, but that's the perception most people get from using it).

    They can upgrade the OS, but the hardware simply isn't good. When you're buying a smartphone phone on a 2 year contract, you want the hardware to be relatively future proof, and to feel confident that the software will at least be supported for a year or so.

    Someone can get a Palm Pre+ on AT&T with comparable hardware and way more storage plus a better OS running on it for dirt cheap, instead of spend so much on a Blackberry (well Torch is down to $99, but it was Subsidized at $199 at launch).

    RIM launched a 2008 phone in 2010. That's why the return rate was so high.

    They need better phones, and a UI revamp in their OS (make it more touch friendly, higher screen resolutions, HD recording, FFC for business users/consumers who need to VidioConference, larger App Storage and internal storage, and try to be less Java-based (which can increase performance), etc.).

    Also, die hard BB fans mocking die hard iOS fans is some funny hypocrisy...

    There are good things about Blackberry phones (I'll probably add one to my family plan as a second phone to reap some of these benefits), but the phones suck - plain and simple.

    If it was on any other network, people would probably still be returning them, beacuse the torch was an embarassment given the slew of superphones that were released in that timeframe across basically all carriers, and the WP7 launch later (where the minimum specs are above and beyond what the BB Torch has inside it, yet the phones MSRP for the same or less than a Torch).

    Instead of trying to create an odd form factor for each and every carrier RIM needs to create one decent consumer phone and let it go to all carriers. It's not hard to see what people want. 80% of phones being released look like slabs of glass for a reason. You can always put a portrait slider keyboard on them (i.e. Dell Venue Pro).
    Last edited by N8ter; 12-30-10 at 11:42 PM.
    12-30-10 11:35 PM
  7. aznlgcy's Avatar
    Also, die hard BB fans mocking die hard iOS fans is some funny hypocrisy...
    Its just for the fun of it. We all enjoy some meaningless statements once in awhile
    12-30-10 11:39 PM
  8. iN8ter's Avatar
    Its just for the fun of it. We all enjoy some meaningless statements once in awhile
    That doesn't make it any less discriminating, or obnoxious

    Instead of bashing them (in jest or not), everyone should be more interested in why the device was so universally rejected by those who are not BB die-hards.
    12-30-10 11:44 PM
  9. Bob G's Avatar
    I am a heavy business user, so I consider myself among the BB loyal (Curve 8310, Storm 9530, Bold 9700, Torch 9800). I was one of the first to get the Torch, but it really *is* underwhelming when compared to what is available on other platforms. I like what RIM has done with OS 6 and the touch screen, but the Torch is thick and heavy, the slider is sloppy, and the battery life, call volume, screen resolution, memory size, and processor speed are unimpressive by comparison.

    I must admit that I am experimenting with Android, which benefits from a superior app selection and excellent hardware platforms.

    If RIM comes out with the Dakota/Magnum/Touch Screen Bold (or maybe an improved Torch 2), then they will capture my interest again. Palm's lack of innovation is what made me leave my Treo and move to BlackBerry, but now RIM's slow pace of innovation is making me look for greener pastures again.
    12-31-10 12:02 AM
  10. Masahiro's Avatar
    Instead of bashing them (in jest or not), everyone should be more interested in why the device was so universally rejected by those who are not BB die-hards.
    That's RIM's concern, not mine. I'm perfectly happy with my Torch and I couldnt give a single damn how many others return theirs.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-31-10 12:06 AM
  11. thymaster's Avatar
    Minus the perception in the US. The torch is doing very well in Canada. A lot of my friends and myself swear by the phone. I don't know anyone who is having a bad time with their Torch.
    12-31-10 12:17 AM
  12. luqman24's Avatar
    Minus the perception in the US. The torch is doing very well in Canada. A lot of my friends and myself swear by the phone. I don't know anyone who is having a bad time with their Torch.
    +1. i'm a Canadian as well (a proud Canadian ) and most of my friends who have upgraded to the iPhone 4 have sold their iPhone 4s and bought the Torch and said they would never go back if they were offered. And most importantly I love mine too I've simply fell inlove with it and can't put it down!

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-31-10 12:28 AM
  13. iN8ter's Avatar
    That's RIM's concern, not mine. I'm perfectly happy with my Torch and I couldnt give a single damn how many others return theirs.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    This thread is not about your concern, so I couldn't care less

    It's about perception issues here with this phone.

    Different markets are different, and someone with multiple friends that use Blackberries have more incentive to get a Blackberry smartphone.

    The Torch is the best among a bad lineup of phones. That doesn't make it a great device. It's not - at least not by any objective standards.
    12-31-10 01:55 AM
  14. tgellr's Avatar
    What model car do you drive? What is the engine displacement? How fast from zero - sixty? Which upgrade package did you select? What places do you drive to? Did you buy a Rolls-Royce just to go to the WalMart in it?

    These forums are great, but to those of us who are still a little "impressionable", try not to take these comparisons too seriously...
    I love my car, but I don't compare it with yours in order to make a value judgement on its suitability in the marketplace, or whether or not you should be satisfied with it! Jeez, it's a Phone...
    12-31-10 05:22 AM
  15. Masahiro's Avatar
    This thread is not about your concern, so I couldn't care less
    Then I recommend you refrain from making claims of what "everyone" should be interested in, seeing as how I am part of that "everyone". It's always confusing when people speak on my behalf. Anyways, have fun being "concerned" over a phone. I'm assuming RIM is paying you for this, right?
    buwee likes this.
    12-31-10 07:46 AM
  16. newcollector's Avatar
    The OP has raised a subjective observation. There is no objective information other than his personal insight that "I know a lot of at&t store employees and they all say that the Torch has a high return rate."

    A lot? how many ATT store employees in the US do you know? High return rate? What percentage of return rate to phones purchased?

    As a pastor, the OP's original post reminds me of that church member who comes to me and says, "A lot of church members don't like this or that thing", but when pressed for definites like who and exactly how many, you discover it is them and one or two others.

    There is no point in arguing with the OP because it is at best projecting the claims of the few ATT employees he knows (one or two or more) on the many. In the words of Spock, "Illogical."
    Last edited by newcollector; 12-31-10 at 09:06 AM.
    12-31-10 09:03 AM
  17. ratm68's Avatar
    haha, it's funny that the OP was smart enough to put on his flame suit before entering the "Torch outshine All" universe. Calm down everybody, the OP is simply making an observation and stating his opinion. He isn't bashing the Torch, so why is everybody all defensive about it?
    greeby likes this.
    12-31-10 01:23 PM
  18. twigg's Avatar
    The BB fanboys are just as bad as the Apple fanboys. As a person who uses both a BB Torch and iPhone 4 (for work and personal use) I can attest to the fact that most users will be underwhelmed by the torch. Most consumers are not business minded folks and are more media and app centric.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-31-10 01:35 PM
  19. brettmyster's Avatar
    Rim needs to adress a few things to compete with droid and apple. We need better gpu capabilities and high res screens. With todays market apps are the demand, as stupid as it is this is how it is regardless of us rim fanboys. If you want to make it, you have to join the competitin. Apple said this is how we do apps and walaa look at what's happened to the appstore on their end. Rim just needs to polish a few loose ends and it certainly can outdo ios seeing as how apples os has always been childs play. I don't care how anyone slices it, this isn't the third grade and that's how I look at apple. Microsofts os>apple anyday in capabilities.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-31-10 01:42 PM
  20. gabedabomb's Avatar
    As a person who uses both a BB Torch and iPhone 4 (for work and personal use) I can attest to the fact that most users will be underwhelmed by the torch. Most consumers are not business minded folks and are more media and app centric.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    To a certain extent that may be true, if you're talking about the 25% installed base of U.S. smartphone users. The battle for manufacturers will be convincing the rest of the 75% of basic phone user/late adopters that they SHOULD convert to a smartphone, specifically the iPhone/Droid/BB/etc. For the more tech-savvy crowd, who sees their friends using iPhones/BBs/Droids, they may be able to make an educated decision, and the Torch may not be right for them. But for me, a 28-yr old, moderately tech-savvy and [at first] reluctant first-time smartphone user, "underwhelming" may be just right. Sure, I want media and apps, but I don't want to be confused either as I loved the ease of use of my RAZR. I want to be able to make phone calls on my PHONE. (If that's how I think, imagine the apprehension of the even less-tech savvy).

    It's great to buy the phone with the BEST "features sets" and "specs", but what good is the phone to the user who, having been wowed or pursued otherwise to buy a touch-only something with a lot of bells and whistles, two months later realize that this is too much for them? Sure, many will happily adapt and adopt, but for some (like me) they may fear that change is too hard. What some see as "2008 technology" in the Torch I see as a comfortable next-step from my RAZR V3XX (circa 2007). I used to only text, occasionally take photos and make phone calls on my phone. Now, I have: BBM, Dilbert, Yelp, Flixster, 5MB camera, mp3 player, photo viewer, maps, GPS, sports scores, weather, etc, etc, etc...come on now! How is the 10+ apps and more (universal search, trackpad+keyboard+touchscreen) underwhelming in any way compared to my RAZR? I will probably max out at 20 apps, and for most people I'd imagine that's all they need. The screen is fine for my use. One can argue "but the Droid/iPHone/Windows 7 is better and can do more!" No, they can't. For me, the killer app for the Torch is Universal Search. May sound silly, but having a phone that people can comfortably transition into, with great ease-of-use, is BB's value proposition. All that glitters isn't gold, and too many customers are blinded by the gold; I'm completely satisfied and getting more PRODUCTIVE each day, and not frustrated at all. I doubt I can say the same if I had chosen any of the Torch's competitors. RIM if you're listening: I would love to help out with your marketing

    For more thoughts from my smartphone newbieness: http://forums.crackberry.com/f209/br...g-post-571873/
    gasolara2002 likes this.
    12-31-10 02:15 PM
  21. twigg's Avatar
    To a certain extent that may be true, if you're talking about the 25% installed base of U.S. smartphone users. The battle for manufacturers will be convincing the rest of the 75% of basic phone user/late adopters that they SHOULD convert to a smartphone, specifically the iPhone/Droid/BB/etc. For the more tech-savvy crowd, who sees their friends using iPhones/BBs/Droids, they may be able to make an educated decision, and the Torch may not be right for them. But for me, a 28-yr old, moderately tech-savvy and [at first] reluctant first-time smartphone user, "underwhelming" may be just right. Sure, I want media and apps, but I don't want to be confused either as I loved the ease of use of my RAZR. I want to be able to make phone calls on my PHONE. (If that's how I think, imagine the apprehension of the even less-tech savvy).

    It's great to buy the phone with the BEST "features sets" and "specs", but what good is the phone to the user who, having been wowed or pursued otherwise to buy a touch-only something with a lot of bells and whistles, two months later realize that this is too much for them? Sure, many will happily adapt and adopt, but for some (like me) they may fear that change is too hard. What some see as "2008 technology" in the Torch I see as a comfortable next-step from my RAZR V3XX (circa 2007). I used to only text, occasionally take photos and make phone calls on my phone. Now, I have: BBM, Dilbert, Yelp, Flixster, 5MB camera, mp3 player, photo viewer, maps, GPS, sports scores, weather, etc, etc, etc...come on now! How is the 10+ apps and more (universal search, trackpad+keyboard+touchscreen) underwhelming in any way compared to my RAZR? I will probably max out at 20 apps, and for most people I'd imagine that's all they need. The screen is fine for my use. One can argue "but the Droid/iPHone/Windows 7 is better and can do more!" No, they can't. For me, the killer app for the Torch is Universal Search. May sound silly, but having a phone that people can comfortably transition into, with great ease-of-use, is BB's value proposition. All that glitters isn't gold, and too many customers are blinded by the gold; I'm completely satisfied and getting more PRODUCTIVE each day, and not frustrated at all. I doubt I can say the same if I had chosen any of the Torch's competitors. RIM if you're listening: I would love to help out with your marketing

    For more thoughts from my smartphone newbieness: http://forums.crackberry.com/f209/br...g-post-571873/
    Almost any smartphone you will find today will surpass the RAZR. But I'm not comparing the BB, iPhone, Android, WebOS, etc to a RAZR; I'm comparing them to each other. Compared other smartphones the Torch is underwhelming. And the future smartphone race is about winning the other 75%, but I'm afraid those consumers won't go for a BB due to its lack of consumer oriented features.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-31-10 03:07 PM
  22. twigg's Avatar
    This is a world where other platforms now exist and dominate the landscape. RIM needs to expand beyond what it is known for. I love my Torch for communicating via SMS, email, FB, AIM, etc but for everything else I prefer my iPhone. Most consumers don't need the high-end communications BB offers.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-31-10 03:19 PM
  23. sleepngbear's Avatar
    RIM's back end platform is fine. Their smartphone OS is not fine.

    People bring them back because better products exist.

    It's not a secret that the torch was universally a disappointment. The only thing good about it is that the touchscreen actually made sense, compared to e.g. the Storm/Storm2.

    Aside from that it was a Palm Pre with a BB Keyboard and BBOS6, which is only marginally above Windows Mobile 6.5 as far as usability and consumer desire is concerned (below it if you're using something like an HD2 with HTC Sense skin, and HD2 hardware is way superior to torch despite it being almost a year old by the time the Torch launched).

    RIM needs better hardware and better form factors. Consumers simply aren't liking what they're putting out, especially now that so many are moving on to other platforms and there aren't that many people to "BBM" - the only redeeming feature of BBOS.
    Exactly where do you get your information from? How is the Torch a universal disappointment when it's one of RIM's best sellers? How does the phone suck when I consistently get a better data and voice signal than my wife's 3Gs? How many more form factors are there that are not represented by some BB model? How is the hardware so obsolete when, even if it's not the highest spec, is still relatively new? And OS6 is only marginally better than WinMo 6.5??? Are you high???? I had a phone with WinMo 6, and it was the biggest piece of crap I ever used.

    This kind of blind criticism reeks of someone who's never actually used whatever it is they are bashing, and I'm frankly sick to death of seeing the same uninformed nonsense opinions that worm their way into every other thread.. Those of us who have them and keep them prefer them over anything else that's available, and that surely couldn't be because the phones suck. Yes, there are higher-end devices out there. Just because you can spend a mil and a half on a Bugatti Veyron doesn't make a Lamborghini a dog.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    kwkid, homer1475, buwee and 1 others like this.
    12-31-10 06:06 PM
  24. kwkid's Avatar
    This thread is not about your concern, so I couldn't care less

    It's about perception issues here with this phone.

    Different markets are different, and someone with multiple friends that use Blackberries have more incentive to get a Blackberry smartphone.

    The Torch is the best among a bad lineup of phones. That doesn't make it a great device. It's not - at least not by any objective standards.
    What an obnoxious post. You sound like a five year old saying "My Mommy is better than your Mommy". Grow up please!
    12-31-10 06:38 PM
  25. ougum's Avatar
    That's RIM's concern, not mine. I'm perfectly happy with my Torch and I couldnt give a single damn how many others return theirs.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Best post I've ever read on these forums.
    12-31-10 07:56 PM
86 123 ...
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD