[sampberry]

BB faithful are so easy to please and love to make excuses for RIM skimping on the hardware. Why settle for what RIM gives you? Demand more as a consumer and RIM will deliver or die.

I agree wholeheartedly. I like bb's and have had 3 so far (8330,8530,9650). But bb's are dated, slow, and under powered. It sounds as though the torch is still not making the grade. RIM can and should do better.

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[Bob G]

I'm getting rather tired of some of these people that think the US and NA are the only markets in the world. Believe it or not, but there are other countries and continents out there.

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Shhhhhh ... while Google and Apple boast about how Android and iPhone are winning market share in the US, in their hubris and myopia they don't realize that they are fighting the wrong battle!

The big markets are in emerging economies like India and China, where iPhones and Android phones are far too expensive, but RIM and Nokia are providing powerful but affordable devices to a far larger consumer base.

[Bob G]

Good review. I agree about the pixelation with small fonts on the screen and the sloppy slider mechanism. These things really bug me with the torch. However, I think the microprocessor is plenty snappy, so going to 1 GHz just to keep up with the Jones' would be a waste of battery life.

I understand the trade-offs each manufacturer needs to make. A higher resolution screen on the Torch would likely require more processor and memory, which would require more battery, which would require more weight, size, and cost. My impression is that the iPhone and many Android devices have traded off the fundamentals (battery life, reception, etc.) to get their HD screens in a small package. Not good or bad; it just depends on what features are more important to the user.

I was also tempted to get the Droid X. The big reason I didn't (besides having to switch carriers), was the lack of a track pad. After having the Palm Treo, BB Curve, BB Bold, Samsung Captivate, iPhone (wife's), and now the BB Torch, I have come to realize that a touch screen is a huge improvement to the user interface, but only if you are not forced to use it exclusively. For detail work (like selecting text or tiny web links), there is nothing like a track pad.

So I think the Torch really is the best of both worlds. Being able to use the keyboard, track pad, and touch screen simultaneously (even one-handed) makes the Torch the most productive device I have ever used.

[joshwithachance]

Good review. I agree about the pixelation with small fonts on the screen and the sloppy slider mechanism. These things really bug me with the torch. However, I think the microprocessor is plenty snappy, so going to 1 GHz just to keep up with the Jones' would be a waste of battery life.

I understand the trade-offs each manufacturer needs to make. A higher resolution screen on the Torch would likely require more processor and memory, which would require more battery, which would require more weight, size, and cost. My impression is that the iPhone and many Android devices have traded off the fundamentals (battery life, reception, etc.) to get their HD screens in a small package. Not good or bad; it just depends on what features are more important to the user.

I was also tempted to get the Droid X. The big reason I didn't (besides having to switch carriers), was the lack of a track pad. After having the Palm Treo, BB Curve, BB Bold, Samsung Captivate, iPhone (wife's), and now the BB Torch, I have come to realize that a touch screen is a huge improvement to the user interface, but only if you are not forced to use it exclusively. For detail work (like selecting text or tiny web links), there is nothing like a track pad.

So I think the Torch really is the best of both worlds. Being able to use the keyboard, track pad, and touch screen simultaneously (even one-handed) makes the Torch the most productive device I have ever used.

it's been proven that the iPhone 4 has better battery life than the Torch in every way yet it has a 1GHz processor and the highest resolution screen on the mobile market. How did Apple do it and RIM couldn't?

[Bob G]

it's been proven that the iPhone 4 has better battery life than the Torch in every way yet it has a 1GHz processor and the highest resolution screen on the mobile market. How did Apple do it and RIM couldn't?

You cited no source for this data, but if it is true, I would speculate that Apple made the tradeoff in the radio. Phone calls take a lot of power. Reduce that power a little and save battery life. Sure, users will complain about dropped calls, but blame that on AT&T and re-direct their attention to the dazzling screen.

[jb20]

I got a Droid X and Torch on Friday. While I don't know a whole alot about the Droid operating system and available applications, I'm not sure it would provide the same business functionality I need that a Blackberry does. I'm sure I could adapt over time but one thing I would miss right away is the Blackberry menues for each application and the quick access to different options. I've always wanted an iPhone for the available applications but again I think for me the BB is best for business - for now anyway.

I wasn't real thrilled with the Torch at first but its starting to grow on me. They kept the same great features like messaging, BES, and keyboard and added some things to make me less envious of an iPhone or Droid user. Still have a long way to go in that department tho.

And they really should have provided a better screen and faster processor - it would of made a huge difference. I think it would of received much more positive reviews from the industry.

I'm a fan of of blackberry and will always be one. I can undersatand someones hesitation for moving to android for business . But that is only because android is a different operating system and it takes time becoming familar with it. I will be the first to tell you I was comfortable with the BB OS but over the past month familiarizing myself with the Droid X and I must say android is as good as blackberry is for businees. Both exchange and gmail work as fast or even faster than my blackberry did. What I was not comfortable with were the hour glasses, re-boots, memory management and battery pulls.(I don't need to go into specifics we all have experienced what I am talking about). These issues are what drew me to the Droid X

That being said I have been for the past week in and out of ATT stores playing with the Torch. I truly would like to see it succeed . I feel the biggest set back is the processor . Rim is getting closer but not quite there yet. A larger processor would help with management off applications. I still experience lag throughout the OS and have seen the ole hour glass poping up. The new browser is a step up but it is so slow compared to the Droid X. Opening Google maps was painful.

I've had every BB out there and want rim to succeed. They could have hit a home run if they put in a bigger processor and a better screen resolution.

Will see what the future holds!

[Rickroller]

I'm a fan of of blackberry and will always be one. I can undersatand someones hesitation for moving to android for business . But that is only because android is a different operating system and it takes time becoming familar with it. I will be the first to tell you I was comfortable with the BB OS but over the past month familiarizing myself with the Droid X and I must say android is as good as blackberry is for businees. Both exchange and gmail work as fast or even faster than my blackberry did. What I was not comfortable with were the hour glasses, re-boots, memory management and battery pulls.(I don't need to go into specifics we all have experienced what I am talking about). These issues are what drew me to the Droid X

That being said I have been for the past week in and out of ATT stores playing with the Torch. I truly would like to see it succeed . I feel the biggest set back is the processor . Rim is getting closer but not quite there yet. A larger processor would help with management off applications. I still experience lag throughout the OS and have seen the ole hour glass poping up. The new browser is a step up but it is so slow compared to the Droid X. Opening Google maps was painful.

I've had every BB out there and want rim to succeed. They could have hit a home run if they put in a bigger processor and a better screen resolution.

Will see what the future holds!

Well to be clear, what version OS where those demo models running? Because it's quite clear in these forums that this "lag" your seeing is software related, not hardware, and has been addressed in the current .214 release. Too many people are still demo'ing these Torch's with the initial OS that was released (unless demo models get updated..which if that's the case i'll proceed to remove foot from mouth)

[Rickroller]

it's been proven that the iPhone 4 has better battery life than the Torch in every way yet it has a 1GHz processor and the highest resolution screen on the mobile market. How did Apple do it and RIM couldn't?

I think DevilDrifterX had some good info on this one in a different thread:

"The PXA930 also lacks a GPU which is beyond hilarious for a touchscreen phone, but the fact RIM still uses its battery sucking 65nm core is even more hilarious since Marvell PXA935 has been out over a year now and has the 45nm core. One only needs to look at the iPhone 4 which dusts the 9800 in battery life in every regard, or the Droid X which has comparable-better battery life while packing much more powerful hardware and capabilities. Qualcomm has even revised the Snapdragon with a 45nm core to be better and cooler, and an enhanced Adreno GPU (x4 the current chip which pushes 20M polygons"

[r.santa1]

I am a b berry nut and cant wait for the 9780...THE TORCH IS A JOKE!!!

[siausin]

Like iphone 4, my excitement with the Droid lasted only 5 minutes. They are nice to play. But Torch wins for me as a total package..

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[Sweetamigo]

I think DevilDrifterX had some good info on this one in a different thread:

"The PXA930 also lacks a GPU which is beyond hilarious for a touchscreen phone, but the fact RIM still uses its battery sucking 65nm core is even more hilarious since Marvell PXA935 has been out over a year now and has the 45nm core. One only needs to look at the iPhone 4 which dusts the 9800 in battery life in every regard, or the Droid X which has comparable-better battery life while packing much more powerful hardware and capabilities. Qualcomm has even revised the Snapdragon with a 45nm core to be better and cooler, and an enhanced Adreno GPU (x4 the current chip which pushes 20M polygons"

I keep reading that the CPU on the Iphone4 is down clocked from 1 ghz.... that probably helps the battery

Honestly, if the Galaxy S phones had any sort of battery life i might have bought that instead ( no, charging more then once at night is NOT an option for me)

[Jude526]

I love my Bold. The resolution is awesome. This device is truly great.

[siausin]

Yet another thread telling people my iphone my android is better than bb and bb is going down..I guess iphone and android fan boys and girls feel compelled to tell bb users how good their phone is..

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[Mr Bigs]

Like iphone 4, my excitement with the Droid lasted only 5 minutes. They are nice to play. But Torch wins for me as a total package..

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

If thats the case then the Torch must of lasted 30 seconds.

[GG1]

Honestly, if the Galaxy S phones had any sort of battery life i might have bought that instead ( no, charging more then once at night is NOT an option for me)

I unplug my Vibrant every morning at 6am and abuse it till 11pm everyday and have never in one month of owning this phone so far, needed to recharge the battery twice in one day. This phone is mainly my business phone and average about 3000 mins of talk time monthly, aside from all the data i use. I am VERY pleased with the battery life on this phone, and as with every phone i ever owned, i never leave my house in the morning without a full charge. I have to say though, i wasn't too sure about the battery at first,as it took a good 7-8 full charging cycles to get to where its at now. I get excellent reception where i am and am 95% of the time on full bars so maybe that helps the battery quite a bit.

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[ClintRo]

Maybe I didn't give the Vibrant enough time, but when I used it I would only get 4-6 hours out of a full charge.

I did all the battery saving techniques that I could find.

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[siausin]

If thats the case then the Torch must of lasted 30 seconds.

Got to disappoint you Droid fan boy..already a month with Torch and going stronger...

[GG1]

Maybe I didn't give the Vibrant enough time, but when I used it I would only get 4-6 hours out of a full charge.

I did all the battery saving techniques that I could find.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

4-6 hours definitely doesn't seem normal. For me the important thing is to go a full day without charge, no matter if it can go 2 days or more, i fully charge every night. I have to say the 9700 is the best i've seen in battery life, and im sure the 9800 is pretty good also.

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[Simba501]

4-6 hours definitely doesn't seem normal. For me the important thing is to go a full day without charge, no matter if it can go 2 days or more, i fully charge every night. I have to say the 9700 is the best i've seen in battery life, and im sure the 9800 is pretty good also.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

Ditto.....

[ClintRo]

4-6 hours definitely doesn't seem normal. For me the important thing is to go a full day without charge, no matter if it can go 2 days or more, i fully charge every night. I have to say the 9700 is the best i've seen in battery life, and im sure the 9800 is pretty good also.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

I agree with you, but no matter what phone I use I am on the lowest battery life end of the spectrum. Trust me I used it for 4 or 5 days before I returned it. The 9700 was the best smartphone I have ever used by far.

Due to the large size of the screen I doubt the 9800 would last as long as the 9700. But that is just my opinion.

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[Bob G]

I agree with you, but no matter what phone I use I am on the lowest battery life end of the spectrum. Trust me I used it for 4 or 5 days before I returned it. The 9700 was the best smartphone I have ever used by far.

Due to the large size of the screen I doubt the 9800 would last as long as the 9700. But that is just my opinion.

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I concur. My 9700 is a camel; it goes forever on a charge. My 9800 has decent battery life (easily gets me through a busy day and then some), but it is still noticeably less than the 9700.

[phenyx923]

Forget what? It's really not that hard to plug something in.

The market speaks, only RIM doesn't listen. Early adopters of the iPhone complained about poor battery performance and each iteration got better. Android being a newer platform I suspect the same thing will happen.

Ask an average smartphone user to rank battery life along with smooth, user-friendly OS, fast web-browsing, availability of apps and fast performance and I'd bet battery life comes out near the bottom.

i think he said it pretty clearly, forget to plug in your phone to charge. oops, one night you're tired and you forget to plug it in for its NIGHTLY charge. next day you realize you missed that and are stuck going to work with an already half or more dead battery. sure, maybe you have a charger at work, but what about if you are out and about. do you make a habit of carrying around a spare charger or USB cable so you can find somewhere in the street to plug it in and charge? battery life is ultimately important because without it we can't use our smartphone and what it is initially set out to be....a PHONE. sure, it will last an hour or 2 for your movie that you can't live without, but will your drained/dead battery let you make an emergency call (and i do NOT mean 911) when there is no outlet in sight? good luck with that...

[phenyx923]

The Vibrant is one of the few Android devices that do not have the LED notifications. There are a lot of things about that device I do not like though.

is it a stretch to say the entire galaxy S line has no LED? i know the captivate didn't and it was something i missed terribly. that's at least 4 phones with no LED, not to mention i believe 3 of them that don't even have a camera flash, but that's another story

berrybuzz is one of the most popular BB apps, giving you the functionality to give contacts and emails and apps different LED colors, speeds, etc. there is obviously a desire for this functionality, or it wouldnt be so popular. i was shocked someone in the android world hadn't developed something similar, but then again, half the phones don't have an LED to begin with. having to turn on your phone screen just to see if you have a missed call, text, email, etc (and i have a feeling that accessing the screen uses more battery power than a simple LED flash for 1 minute) is invaluable and convenient. why do i need to waste my time when the blink of a light tells me what i need/want to know?

(avt, this is not directed at you, just riding the wave of your comment )

[sleepngbear]

The broader debate here is whether the Torch will succeed or fail in its mission to stop the bleeding for RIM and/or attract users of other platforms.

Excellent question. I think the introduction of the Torch will certainly slow the bleeding, but it's not the device that's going to stop it.

I think I and other users like myself are examples of where the bleeding will slow. My Bold 9000 was my second BB, and I wanted something with a bigger screen and better browser, but I wasn't willing to give up a physical keyboard. I've seen the iPhone up close, and a few top-of-the-line Androids not quite as close. Without question they both have features that blow away some aspects of the Torch, but none that are important enough to me to leave the brand for, or the OS I've become very comfortable with. However, if RIM had not introduced the Torch, there's a very good chance my next phone would have been something else.

On the other hand, any existing BB users who do want more of what the higher-end competitors are offering are not going to find it in the Torch, and that's where the bleeding will continue.

The other problem RIM now has to figure out is that the 9800 offers little that would lure users of other devices to the BB brand. It will be very interesting to see what the inevitable 9850 will look like and what RIM has in mind to make it a viable high-end competitor among the other brands.

For the record, I've had my Torch for a couple of days now, and I have no regrets for not getting something with better hardware in the same price range. It works well, it does what I need it to do, and there was basically zero learning curve. So BB will keep me around for at least another couple of years.

[sivan]

What's funny is how chargers and extended batteries are not counted as part of the cost of buying an Android device. I keep telling people, the battery sucks. Then I hear they bought a couple of extended batteries and multiple chargers to have nearby everywhere. That's easily $200 extra right there. Those companies are knowingly selling defective devices that are too thin and try to do too much for too little money. The user is then left to figure out that they really have to use a case to make a call, get a chubby battery and carry chargers everywhere.

I always see iPhone and Android users in the office and in coffee shops tethered to power sources, either their computer or an electrical outlet, and it's a good chance that their WiFi and GPS are off too. Watch the screens of most iPhone and Android devices side by side with a BlackBerry. For all the fancy resolution and AMOLED BS, those users have the screen on minimum brightness to conserve battery. I was comparing Google Maps with a friend out on a trip, and his iPhone screen was barely viewable next to my 9700 cranked up without any concern for battery life. A lot of the benefits of iPhones and Android are just demo stuff that doesn't work in real life.