[mhw100]

I've read the other posts on the differences between the 2 devices but here are my personal/subjective thoughts coming from a straight "communication" only perspective on .246.

1. Screen res. The 9800 looks great. Not as crisp/clear as the 9700 but surprisingly good. From an email or text/font perspective the 9700 I think still wins although the 9800 is no slouch and workable. I'm using it mostly for emails and writing letters so to me the 9780 wins here but only by a small margin.

2. Screen size. When using the virutal keyboard, the actual viewing area of the screen for emails etc is actually less with the 9800 because the virtual board consumes so much space. I found myself having to do a lot more scrolling up and down to see what I had written. Not a biggie but again, from a straight communication experience I have to wonder why I would ever use the virtual board given it consumes so much real estate. It seems to me the only advantage to the larger screen is for media viewing or straight reading where there is no user input required. If the argument is to just use the physical kb then I would ask why would I want a virtual kb in the first place.

3. Physical keyboard. The 9700 which I assume is going to be identical to the 9780 seems better than the 9800. I would get use the shorter key travel but the 9700 just "feels" more solid than the 9800 if you are going to primarily use the physical kb. The upper lip of the screen also seems to impede typing on the top row of keys but I would assume you would get used to it.

4. Virtual keyboard. I just don't know why I would use this other than to rip off a quick email/txt off and if this is the case then why do I need a virtual kb? I realize the user gets accustomed to the virtual so I may not be fair here but for straight written communications the tactile response of the physical I think would be more accurate. Alternatively, if the goal is to become accomplished using the virtual kb then why not be done with physical and not have any physical kb available i.e. just use the Storm or the 9700 as preference dictates. My understanding is that by having both you get the best of both worlds but i would almost argue that you've got your feet in two different boats i.e.you might just as well get on with life with one or the other. Having 2 kbs just seems to be unnecessary. I realize this is debatable though.

5. Slider. The 9800 was solid and non-wiggley. Still, having to extend the slider when I wanted to send an email/text was a real pain. Again, I realize it would eventually become second nature but it still begs the question above that it likely would be better to either use a Storm or a 9700 and get on with life with either one or the other.

6. Navigation. I think the 9800 wins here in so far the virtual kb allows you to move around a bit better but not having experienced the 9780 with OS6 this may not be accurate and that gap may be closed.

7. Phone. Hard to tell but seem to be about the same although I did seem to have a few more dropped calls on the 9800 although this observation isn't scientific.

8. Call quality. Seems good on the 9800 but the speaker volume seems low compared to the 9700.

9. Battery. Seems to be about the same...maybe a little better on the 9700...not sure what it will be like on the 9780.

10. Weight/size. Not really material to worry about even though the 9800 is heavier. With the slider out though it doesn't really seem to have the right balance in the hand like the 9700 but this is just a personal thing. I think RIM got it pretty right though on the 9800 but just doesn't seem as easy to type on the physical kb.

Conclusion. If I were using it for movies or a lot of surfing then I think I would put up with some of the less-than-perfect communication attributes in comparison to the 9700/9780 just to get the larger screen. Then again, if I was really wanting it for media then I probably would go to some other platform.

The 9800 is a whole lotta fun to play with but because it is trying to be all things to all people I just don't think it is optimal as a straight business tool. I will likely miss the 1" extra screen waiting around in airports etc but this is so infrequent for me I think I will just migrate to the 9780 with OS6, webkit etc as that platform seems near perfect. Probably not much of an upgrade over the 9700 but it is always nice to have a new toy.

Comments would be appreciated.

[Mikey52]

I think this is a well written and thought out post. I also think it is subjective though. Coming from a Storm, I see what you mean about the physical/Virtual keyboards. I've used the physical keyboard once - To test the build quality in the store. I would be completely happy and just as productive without any physical keyboard. As mentioned, it's subjective because some of the issues you mention with regards to screen real estate when using the virtual keyboard are non issues for me (and I'm sure a lot of virtual veterans). I think I could go head to head productivity wise as far as typing long emails and messages. I will say that browsing web pages has become even easier with the addition of the trackpad to my arsenal.

[mhw100]

Yes I think it is mostly subjective too. Most of it one would adapt to overtime and therefore not really deal breakers in any way.

I also agree that from a productivity perspective it doesn't make any difference which keyboard one uses since you would eventually adapt and become proficient with either. The question then becomes why have both i.e. why would you want both if they are equally effective/productive? As you said you never even use the physical and I'm coming from the 9700 and can't really understand why I would use the virtual. By implementing both, the device adds some attributes that are unnecessary e.g having to slide a part every single time I use the physical...which will likely be always. If the argument is to use the virtual more often then why have the physical and just migrate to a more superior implentation than RIM's virtual kb?

As far as the screen real estate is concerned, again, you're right in that one would just adapt to having less with the 9800 when using the virtual board. My clumsily made point was more to illustrate that for me this is where I want the real estate...not in the browsing/movies since I just don't use it that often for these features. Granted I could use the extra inch by using the physical board but then I circle back to why do I want a device with a touch screen if I'm not going to use it, the slider deployment and the lesser real estate.

I really like the 9800 because it is fun and I can see how a virtual person would like it although if you don't intend on really using the physical, that feature then becomes a dead appendage so to speak. Similary, if you are principally a physical guy/gal then why have the touchscreen? Having both makes about as much sense as having two steering wheels in a car. Why not learn one and be done with it which eliminates so many other issues. I realize the Torch is more about marketing to a broader target market so I understand the rational for both but from my utilitarian and personal perspective it doesn't.

[smokn05]

Personally I like having a choice of 3 keyboard styles. If I am going to type something long I use the physical kb. If I'm already in landscape mode and I want to type something quick I use the landscape virtual kb. I have found that I can still type pretty quick and accurate on the virtual kb as well. About the only one I don't use is the vertical virtual kb but I like having the choice to if I want to. I think having a choice is always better than not having a choice.

[sleepngbear]

Just a few thoughts ...

2. Screen size. When using the virutal keyboard, the actual viewing area of the screen for emails etc is actually less with the 9800 because the virtual board consumes so much space. I found myself having to do a lot more scrolling up and down to see what I had written. Not a biggie but again, from a straight communication experience I have to wonder why I would ever use the virtual board given it consumes so much real estate. It seems to me the only advantage to the larger screen is for media viewing or straight reading where there is no user input required. If the argument is to just use the physical kb then I would ask why would I want a virtual kb in the first place.

Good observation. I find this myself on the few occasions that I think I want to be lazy and not slide the keyboard down (not a slam on those who prefer the virtual kb!!). If I do use the virtual kb, it's usually for a quick text or an app that doesn't require entry of long strings of text. One of the things that attracted me most to this form factor is having a choice of input methods. Since the Torch has both, I fully expected that there'd be compromises; the physical kb wouldn't be quite as good as the Bold, and the virtual kb probably wouldn't be as good as the iPhone. But like any other new device, I've found it just takes some getting used to.

3. Physical keyboard. The 9700 which I assume is going to be identical to the 9780 seems better than the 9800. I would get use the shorter key travel but the 9700 just "feels" more solid than the 9800 if you are going to primarily use the physical kb. The upper lip of the screen also seems to impede typing on the top row of keys but I would assume you would get used to it.

Again, purely subjective from one user to another. Not everybody is going to find that thin slide-out keyboard comfortable, or even usable. I myself have no problem with it, but I can certainly see how anyone with larger fingers might.

4. Virtual keyboard. I just don't know why I would use this other than to rip off a quick email/txt off and if this is the case then why do I need a virtual kb? I realize the user gets accustomed to the virtual so I may not be fair here but for straight written communications the tactile response of the physical I think would be more accurate. Alternatively, if the goal is to become accomplished using the virtual kb then why not be done with physical and not have any physical kb available i.e. just use the Storm or the 9700 as preference dictates. My understanding is that by having both you get the best of both worlds but i would almost argue that you've got your feet in two different boats i.e.you might just as well get on with life with one or the other. Having 2 kbs just seems to be unnecessary. I realize this is debatable though.

As stated above, having the choice of keyboards is something I particularly like about this device. While I tend to use the physical kb significantly more, every once in awhile that extra slide action isn't needed and the virtual kb is there for the quick type-and-shoot. And then there's the trackpad ... being on my third BB, I don't think I could ever live without one again.

5. Slider. The 9800 was solid and non-wiggley. Still, having to extend the slider when I wanted to send an email/text was a real pain. Again, I realize it would eventually become second nature but it still begs the question above that it likely would be better to either use a Storm or a 9700 and get on with life with either one or the other.

I agree here, as well ... though not so much a 'pain' as a minor inconvenience. But I hear you. Again, I like having both options. And having to slide the kb down when I want it is an inconvenience I'm ok with in exchange for the larger display area that makes it necessary. My preference, I know, not everyone's ...

7. Phone. Hard to tell but seem to be about the same although I did seem to have a few more dropped calls on the 9800 although this observation isn't scientific.

I haven't experienced any dropped calls, although admittedly I might only make a couple of calls a day.

8. Call quality. Seems good on the 9800 but the speaker volume seems low compared to the 9700.

I found call quality to be not as good as the Bold 9000 as well; volume was a little low and sound was very tinny. Until I upgraded the OS to .225, which among other things, significantly improved call quality ... the difference was like night and day.

10. Weight/size. Not really material to worry about even though the 9800 is heavier. With the slider out though it doesn't really seem to have the right balance in the hand like the 9700 but this is just a personal thing. I think RIM got it pretty right though on the 9800 but just doesn't seem as easy to type on the physical kb.

Definitely a noticeable difference between the Torch and other BB's. The added weight and different 'balance' with the kb slid open combined with the thinner and slightly smaller kb area takes some getting used to.

Conclusion. If I were using it for movies or a lot of surfing then I think I would put up with some of the less-than-perfect communication attributes in comparison to the 9700/9780 just to get the larger screen. Then again, if I was really wanting it for media then I probably would go to some other platform.

Definitely agree here. But I'm not a media-phile or a web junkie. I just wanted a larger display and a better browsing experience than my Bold provided without losing any of BB's excellent communications capabilities. In my brief experience with it, the Torch hits the mark and then some.

The 9800 is a whole lotta fun to play with but because it is trying to be all things to all people I just don't think it is optimal as a straight business tool. I will likely miss the 1" extra screen waiting around in airports etc but this is so infrequent for me I think I will just migrate to the 9780 with OS6, webkit etc as that platform seems near perfect. Probably not much of an upgrade over the 9700 but it is always nice to have a new toy.

I personally love what BB has done with the Torch, and as mentioned above, the few compromises are more than acceptable for me in exchange for the benefits. However, I can also appreciate how that would not be the case for everyone. There are significant differences between the two form factors (three if you include the Storm), and not every one is going to work for everybody.

Thanks for the post ...

[mhw100]

Yes - that was said well in that it really is a phone of "compromises." It can't please everyone like no phone can but on balance the 9800 is a good compromise. It is compelling and I'm still torn between the 9780 and 9800 even though I think for the 9780 is likely 'better' in most respects if media isn't a big issue for the user.

[Rickroller]

I don't really understand the 2nd point about the screen real estate.. Obviously yes..if your using the virtual keyboard some of the 3.2" screen gets used up..but does it not on any touchscreen phone? That is the whole point imo of having the slide out keyboard. I now have a full keyboard AND a 3.2" screen..which is a huge bonus coming from a Storm..and a lot more screen real estate (when typing) than probably any phone on the market currently.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[kwkid]

I will also admit I really like the choice of keyboards. When I just need to shoot out a quick short response to a text, the virtual keyboard is a snap to use in either portrait or landscape mode. For longer email responses or texts, the physical keyboard is my preference.

[mhw100]

I don't really understand the 2nd point about the screen real estate.. Obviously yes..if your using the virtual keyboard some of the 3.2" screen gets used up..but does it not on any touchscreen phone? That is the whole point imo of having the slide out keyboard. I now have a full keyboard AND a 3.2" screen..which is a huge bonus coming from a Storm..and a lot more screen real estate (when typing) than probably any phone on the market currently.

That is true that you do have more real estate when using the physical but then what is the value of the virtual if you predominantly use the physical?

[mhw100]

I will also admit I really like the choice of keyboards. When I just need to shoot out a quick short response to a text, the virtual keyboard is a snap to use in either portrait or landscape mode. For longer email responses or texts, the physical keyboard is my preference.

If one is predominantly using the physical kb then why do you need both input options in the device i.e. can't you shoot out the same short email off of the physical if that is what you are using most often? if that was true then why have a device with both inputs implemented?

[Rickroller]

That is true that you do have more real estate when using the physical but then what is the value of the virtual if you predominantly use the physical?

It boils down to personal preference. Like the one person said..for a quick reply it's sometimes nice to use the virtual..but for long messages..it's great to use the physical. It's the perfect blend imo..because even with my full touchscreen (Storm) i always typed in Portrait mode.

[sleepngbear]

If one is predominantly using the physical kb then why do you need both input options in the device i.e. can't you shoot out the same short email off of the physical if that is what you are using most often? if that was true then why have a device with both inputs implemented?

Interesting question ... the problem is the fact that you kinda have to have the slide-out keyboard if you want a physical keyboard with the larger screen, unless you want a phone that's almost 6" long. I don't know with absolute certainty, but I think most phones with a slide-out keyboard also have a virtual option, just for the times that you don't need all that display real estate, or just prefer using the virtual for whatever reason. Again, part of the appeal of this form factor is having the option to use either. Different users just prefer one keyboard over the other in different situations; having both was one of the big selling points for me.

If you strongly prefer one method over the other and can see no reason to have both, then just go with the one that works best for you.

[mhw100]

It is indeed a matter of personal preference at the end of the day. The utilitarian nature of the 9700/9780 is probably better for me for the reasons I enumerated.