09-20-10 03:34 PM
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  1. lee_'s Avatar
    BB manages push mail much better than iphone and android. When my iphone and nexus one turned on pushmail battery drained really quick..

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    That used to be the case.

    Froyo and IOS4 seem to have cured the terrible battery drain on push that the earlier versions suffered.
    09-11-10 12:19 PM
  2. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I could explain it but I don't think you'd believe me.

    Even Apple recommend switching off Push, see here;
    Apple - Batteries - iPhone

    And another example
    iDrain No More 10 Tips to Help Conserve iPhone Battery Life

    A quick google should give you the answers to your questions.
    That doesn't make any sense, surely the point of push email is to save data and therefore battery life.
    I have a feeling when they talk about the push email for iphone they really mean it's a constant imap connection, not true push as with blackberry.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-11-10 01:10 PM
  3. TheScionicMan's Avatar
    Looks like the new T-Mo G2 is a FAIL too since it doesn't have a 1ghz processor...
    09-11-10 01:17 PM
  4. Bretski's Avatar
    Have used the new phones with the 1ghz processors. Yeah bigger screens and tighter resolutions are nice. Personally, I have found that for a phone with the multitude of features it has, this phone perfors just as fast. I appreciate thay there is a market for the Media phones and am happy to know that the many functions of those phones REQUIRE a 1ghz peocessors which the manufacturers provide. I am happy to have a phone (Blackberry Torch) that does not REQUIRE a 1ghz processor and in most cases outperforms those which do.
    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-11-10 08:52 PM
  5. vaca232's Avatar
    Looks like the new T-Mo G2 is a FAIL too since it doesn't have a 1ghz processor...
    Not 1GHz, but its a newer 45nm Snapdragon with a MUCH more powerful GPU
    09-11-10 09:59 PM
  6. vaca232's Avatar
    I am happy to have a phone (Blackberry Torch) that does not REQUIRE a 1ghz processor and in most cases outperforms those which do.
    What cases?
    09-11-10 10:00 PM
  7. joshwithachance's Avatar
    I think the processor runs fine, especially once updated to 6.0.0.214 (:
    09-11-10 11:42 PM
  8. Roo Zilla's Avatar
    That doesn't make any sense, surely the point of push email is to save data and therefore battery life.
    I have a feeling when they talk about the push email for iphone they really mean it's a constant imap connection, not true push as with blackberry.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    This is of course, makes no sense. Why does push email save data? Any type of push email system has to have a constant connection to a server somewhere, it doesn't matter what type. If you don't think that's true, turn off all the radios on your phone and see how many emails you get. Not many I bet. A pull system will ALWAYS use less power than a comparable push system since a data connection is only needed when the message is being pulled.

    Push systems don't necessarily use a lot of power. Look at SMS on a phone. SMS is actually a push data system.

    MS Exchange Activesync, used by most non-BB systems is more comprehensive than just email push. It's actually email sync (in addition to contacts, calendar, and tasks), similar to what you get with BES. It is also not a form of IMAP IDLE, but rather a proprietary system designed by MS. The way IMAP works is that is just pulls headers, and downloads emails as you open them. That's not the way EAS works, it pushes the whole email to your mobile device, excluding attachments which are usually manually downloaded or controlled by device settings. Like BES, EAS can also be added on to Domino and Groupwise. Every device that uses EAS has to be licensed to do so from MS. Apple pays a license fee for each iPhone they produce, same as Android manufacturers who use the technology. IMAP on the other hand, is and open standard and thus free. Don't worry though, it's only a matter of time before somebody comes up with an open version of email push systems. Zimbra, and Exchange substitute, is already gaining acceptance by large companies, and surely something similar to BES/EAS is already in the works.

    Finally, I believe the only devices on the market that actually support IMAP IDLE is Palm Pre. Before Google went full on EAS with Gmail, Pre was using IMAP IDLE to access Gmail.
    09-12-10 01:57 AM
  9. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Did a quick search and found this article which explains a lot:
    The difference between Windows Mobile and BlackBerry push email | Tech at Play

    Assuming iphone and android use the same method I can see that it's in no way like the blackberry push. They need to refresh the connection regularly, blackberry does not need it as the NOC is doing all the hard work.

    They might all call it push but only rim has true push for mobile phones.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-12-10 04:00 AM
  10. lee_'s Avatar
    Did a quick search and found this article which explains a lot:
    The difference between Windows Mobile and BlackBerry push email | Tech at Play

    Assuming iphone and android use the same method I can see that it's in no way like the blackberry push. They need to refresh the connection regularly, blackberry does not need it as the NOC is doing all the hard work.

    They might all call it push but only rim has true push for mobile phones.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I think you're trying far too hard here to prove a point that doesn't exist.

    If you want to look at it on a technical level both technologies work in a very similar manner. It's clear to me the person that wrote that article doesn't properly understand the RIM technology (which is pretty normal as it's very complex). I've done the RIM admin course and have quite a decent grasp on it.

    If you go back and check the article he makes no reference to have push works for RIM, I'm guessing because he doesn't know. Afterall it's not common knowledge as opposed to EAS which is.

    He says the NOC does all of the work, it doesn't. Your BB has to maintain a connection to the NOC otherwise it doesn't work and yes data is exchanged from time to time to keep the connection up. It's only a very minimal amount but it happens.

    Now I actually still think RIM has the better technology but to a end user there is absolutely no difference.

    Both technologies are push and both technologies deliver emails immediately. How they achieve that is not of any concern to users and both delivery methods work just the same.
    09-12-10 04:59 AM
  11. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I think you're trying far too hard here to prove a point that doesn't exist.

    If you want to look at it on a technical level both technologies work in a very similar manner. It's clear to me the person that wrote that article doesn't properly understand the RIM technology (which is pretty normal as it's very complex). I've done the RIM admin course and have quite a decent grasp on it.

    If you go back and check the article he makes no reference to have push works for RIM, I'm guessing because he doesn't know. Afterall it's not common knowledge as opposed to EAS which is.

    He says the NOC does all of the work, it doesn't. Your BB has to maintain a connection to the NOC otherwise it doesn't work and yes data is exchanged from time to time to keep the connection up. It's only a very minimal amount but it happens.

    Now I actually still think RIM has the better technology but to a end user there is absolutely no difference.

    Both technologies are push and both technologies deliver emails immediately. How they achieve that is not of any concern to users and both delivery methods work just the same.
    What the end user is or should be concerned about is this:

    Iphone/Android/Winmo push email reduces battery life and increases data usage.
    Blackberry push email is increasing battery life and it's reducing data usage.

    The end result could be the same but one platform is far more efficient then the others and it wasn't included in that test, that's the point I'm trying to make.

    Now, please exclude EAS out of this discussion as it's not "out of the box" and it's not free either.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by belfastdispatcher; 09-12-10 at 05:48 AM.
    09-12-10 05:45 AM
  12. anon3396357's Avatar
    Reduced data usage is a moot point as it does not translate into reduced costs for the end user.
    09-12-10 05:49 AM
  13. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Reduced data usage is a moot point as it does not translate into reduced costs for the end user.
    Really? Tell that to the people in developing countries that only get 5mb included in their expensive data plan. More data you use, more battery you'll use, that's the connection in this discussion.

    Also don't forget expensive roaming data charges.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by belfastdispatcher; 09-12-10 at 06:03 AM.
    09-12-10 05:58 AM
  14. lee_'s Avatar
    What the end user is or should be concerned about is this:

    Iphone/Android/Winmo push email reduces battery life and increases data usage.
    Blackberry push email is increasing battery life and it's reducing data usage.

    The end result could be the same but one platform is far more efficient then the others and it wasn't included in that test, that's the point I'm trying to make.

    Now, please exclude EAS out of this discussion as it's not "out of the box" and it's not free either.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    You've got the wrong end of the stick.

    EAS is indeed free for companies using exchange (like 90% of them) and it is supported out of the box.

    But EAS is really the same tech as what Gmail/Yahoo/MobileMe and all of the rest of them use to push email to non BB devices, it works very well and does the job just fine which is also free and supported out of the box.

    And ontop of that using Gmail/Yahoo/Mobileme/EAS etc is cheaper than having a RIM data plan on the majority of networks, it's one of the reasons companies sometimes move their mobile fleet away from RIM.

    I think you're really wasting your time trying to use the push agenda. In the western world it makes no difference across different platforms. RIM used to have a major advantage over everyone with PUSH that advantage no longer exists since the other technologies are now equal to RIM's Push.

    If you really want to know where RIM gets a leg up on the opposition, it's in these places.

    1. Corps use BES/BES Ex and gain a far more granular level of control over their devices than EAS. EAS has like 50 something policies which in all fairness cover the main bases (remote wipe etc). However BES has like 500 policies so gives you a massive amount of control over devices. Outside of the polices BES also does some really clever stuff like allowing you to push internet connections through proxies and content filters which means you can use the same IT policy for things like browsing and downloading.

    2. Device encryption. RIM is still the king of this for me. Android fails here without some 3rd party tool to do the job. The Iphone can do it but the performance penalty is far worse than that of RIM devices in my experience and prior to IOS4 Iphone encrpytion was useless.

    And there are a few other things I can think of but PUSH certainly isn't one of them.
    Last edited by lee_; 09-12-10 at 06:49 AM.
    09-12-10 06:44 AM
  15. Crucial_Xtreme's Avatar
    You've got the wrong end of the stick.

    EAS is indeed free for companies using exchange (like 90% of them) and it is supported out of the box.

    But EAS is really the same tech as what Gmail/Yahoo/MobileMe and all of the rest of them use to push email to non BB devices, it works very well and does the job just fine which is also free and supported out of the box.

    And ontop of that using Gmail/Yahoo/Mobileme/EAS etc is cheaper than having a RIM data plan on the majority of networks, it's one of the reasons companies sometimes move their mobile fleet away from RIM.

    I think you're really wasting your time trying to use the push agenda. In the western world it makes no difference across different platforms. RIM used to have a major advantage over everyone with PUSH that advantage no longer exists since the other technologies are now equal to RIM's Push.

    If you really want to know where RIM gets a leg up on the opposition, it's in these places.

    1. Corps use BES/BES Ex and gain a far more granular level of control over their devices than EAS. EAS has like 50 something policies which in all fairness cover the main bases (remote wipe etc). However BES has like 500 policies so gives you a massive amount of control over devices. Outside of the polices BES also does some really clever stuff like allowing you to push internet connections through proxies and content filters which means you can use the same IT policy for things like browsing and downloading.

    2. Device encryption. RIM is still the king of this for me. Android fails here without some 3rd party tool to do the job. The Iphone can do it but the performance penalty is far worse than that of RIM devices in my experience and prior to IOS4 Iphone encrpytion was useless.

    And there are a few other things I can think of but PUSH certainly isn't one of them.
    You can't really be serious?? I totally disagree and the facts seem to do the same.

    With RIM and the indexing of device PIN's versus IP addresses other devices use to "push" emails, there's simply no true comparison. Seeing as how the NOC is always connected to the device, the server can call up and push said data to the device instantly. Add on top of that RIM's DPA(Dynamic Packet Allocation(basically computes how many packets a BlackBerry can accept and how quickly based on connection quality in a specific cell site) and RIM still has an advantage over other mobile platforms.

    Active Sync obviously doesn't route through a NOC, but conversely doesn't offer the same scalability, security, power or network efficiency. The problem is the lack of fixed IP on a smartphone. Nevertheless the Iphone/ActiveSync constant reliance on an open inbound port, hence security issues.
    Microsoft is worse because in order to maintain "push" it constantly pings the device thus killing power management and using at least two times the data consumption of BlackBerry.

    I will agree other platforms have stepped up their game and are offering similar services, but all things are NOT equal...
    09-12-10 07:17 AM
  16. lee_'s Avatar
    You can't really be serious?? I totally disagree and the facts seem to do the same.

    With RIM and the indexing of device PIN's versus IP addresses other devices use to "push" emails, there's simply no true comparison. Seeing as how the NOC is always connected to the device, the server can call up and push said data to the device instantly. Add on top of that RIM's DPA(Dynamic Packet Allocation(basically computes how many packets a BlackBerry can accept and how quickly based on connection quality in a specific cell site) and RIM still has an advantage over other mobile platforms.

    Active Sync obviously doesn't route through a NOC, but conversely doesn't offer the same scalability, security, power or network efficiency. The problem is the lack of fixed IP on a smartphone. Nevertheless the Iphone/ActiveSync constant reliance on an open inbound port, hence security issues.
    Microsoft is worse because in order to maintain "push" it constantly pings the device thus killing power management and using at least two times the data consumption of BlackBerry.

    I will agree other platforms have stepped up their game and are offering similar services, but all things are NOT equal...
    That's fair enough.

    Any of the push services over SSL (which is the norm these days) don't really have security issues, hence the reason several banks and many large organisations support the technology.

    As I said in previous posts the technology isn't quite as efficent as RIM's however for the end user the difference is less than negliable on some of the better device and newer devices. We know older devices like the 3G/3GS and some android devices had their battery raped by push hence the use of pull.

    The facts are clear, pushing over SSL is in the mobile world a perfectly acceptable and secure method of communication. That is a fact backed by the massive rise in the technology.

    I'd argue RIM's advantage isn't based on push anymore (like it used to be) but great device management, local device security and integration into business platforms.
    09-12-10 07:31 AM
  17. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    That's fair enough.

    Any of the push services over SSL (which is the norm these days) don't really have security issues, hence the reason several banks and many large organisations support the technology.

    As I said in previous posts the technology isn't quite as efficent as RIM's however for the end user the difference is less than negliable on some of the better device and newer devices. We know older devices like the 3G/3GS and some android devices had their battery raped by push hence the use of pull.

    The facts are clear, pushing over SSL is in the mobile world a perfectly acceptable and secure method of communication. That is a fact backed by the massive rise in the technology.

    I'd argue RIM's advantage isn't based on push anymore (like it used to be) but great device management, local device security and integration into business platforms.
    Ok, let's get back to the point here, we're not talking security or even data efficiency, we're talking battery life and you agree iphone and android push email is a battery killer and blackberry push email is the opposite.
    Surely in a head to head battery test you have to include a standby test, which any blackberry would win hands down and then calculate the average overall.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-12-10 07:47 AM
  18. lee_'s Avatar
    Ok, let's get back to the point here, we're not talking security or even data efficiency, we're talking battery life and you agree iphone and android push email is a battery killer and blackberry push email is the opposite.
    Surely in a head to head battery test you have to include a standby test, which any blackberry would win hands down and then calculate the average overall.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I'd suggest not unless compared to something like a older Android device or a 3G/3GS.

    Sure RIM has the more efficent tech but it's not the massive killer with modern devices it used to be.

    However, the equation is far more complex than that with the devices having different size batteries so which one is more efficent overall (the tech and the software) who knows?

    Real world though the Iphone can outlast my torch on push but this isn't a scientifc test. I could be that the torch I have doesn't have a battery that is as good as the Iphones (we all know how random battery life can be). I'd say they are pretty close in battery usage so either way it doesn't really matter.

    The torch does better on battery life vs my nexus though on push.
    Last edited by lee_; 09-12-10 at 07:56 AM.
    09-12-10 07:52 AM
  19. avt123's Avatar
    Ok, let's get back to the point here, we're not talking security or even data efficiency, we're talking battery life and you agree iphone and android push email is a battery killer and blackberry push email is the opposite.
    Surely in a head to head battery test you have to include a standby test, which any blackberry would win hands down and then calculate the average overall.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I don't know how push on Android is a battery killer. I received over 30 emails in the past 14 hours and my device has been unplugged from the charger for 18 hours and 25 minutes. I have over 70% battery left. That's not counting all the active processes I have running in the background and all of the widgets updating (some constant and some on hour intervals). Push is on all the time.

    Push is no longer an issue on newer Android devices. Maybe when the OS was in its infancy but not any more. I didn't even have battery drain from push over a year ago when the OD Droid came out. I did however have an issue with the 3GS gobbling battery, but the iPhone 4 no longer has that problem. Pretty sure the iPhone 4 gets better battery life than most BBs. I think Roo Zilla posted a chart in a different thread, I'll try to find it. BB does win in standby though.

    Lets not forget something though. All of these newer devices do not run through a NOC and are getting great battery life. They are doing everything on their own independently. For everything being done by the phone itself, the battery life is pretty damn good.
    09-12-10 11:25 AM
  20. anon3396357's Avatar
    I don't know how push on Android is a battery killer. I received over 30 emails in the past 14 hours and my device has been unplugged from the charger for 18 hours and 25 minutes. I have over 70% battery left. That's not counting all the active processes I have running in the background and all of the widgets updating (some constant and some on hour intervals). Push is on all the time.
    Very impressive. What else did you use your phone for in those 18h 25m?

    By the looks of it your device beats any Blackberry devices on the market in battery life right now. If that's the case there's no longer any reason to get a BB for battery life.
    09-12-10 11:41 AM
  21. anon3396357's Avatar
    Really? Tell that to the people in developing countries that only get 5mb included in their expensive data plan. More data you use, more battery you'll use, that's the connection in this discussion.

    Also don't forget expensive roaming data charges.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    My apologies then.

    I pay more for less in my country. My friends on the iPhone get 12 times more data than I have on my BIS plan with a higher bill. I only have 1gb/month.
    09-12-10 12:29 PM
  22. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    My apologies then.

    I pay more for less in my country. My friends on the iPhone get 12 times more data than I have on my BIS plan with a higher bill. I only have 1gb/month.
    I find it very hard to believe iphone ownes get 12gb a month of data.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-12-10 01:08 PM
  23. jeffreii's Avatar
    Every iPhone and Android user in these forums claims to get 48 hours of battery life while using the phone constantly. It's amazing!
    09-12-10 02:31 PM
  24. Robotaz's Avatar
    Every iPhone and Android user in these forums claims to get 48 hours of battery life while using the phone constantly. It's amazing!
    I use the iPhone 4, for now, and it lasts for one day with moderate use. Heavy use will require a charge, if not two, per day other than the nightly charge.
    09-12-10 03:26 PM
  25. GibMcFragger's Avatar
    I get a day out of my iPhone 4 under heavy use (gaming, etc). It is FAR better on battery life than my Torch was, and about the same as my 9700.
    09-12-10 03:38 PM
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