[BuffDragon]

let's get this out of the way. I'm not a troll, but feel free to call me one. I've spent too many years in/around/moderating message boards to have my feelings hurt by internet tough guys lashing out without understanding the intentions behind posts.

I have a problem.
the problem, is I've been waiting and wanting the torch since it first became rumored. seemed like the end all, do all and a blackberry to boot. EXACTLY what I want.

but in watching the threads here and reviews and etc, the Torch is either not up to expectations, or is having an unusual amount of "lemons" in their shipments. or is exactly what RIM needed to dole out to the masses, whatever. at this point, today, it is what it is.

BUT....I dont understand why its acceptable to a lot of people to have to return a phone to get a new one that "works" (or isnt broken, whatever...blanket statement). there's members who have returned more than one phone. several, in fact. and why is it acceptable for a tweak (OS .161) to be "needed" less than one week since the device itself was launched? "growing pains" as it has been said. growing pains? RIM is supposed to be better than that. people had these things for weeks. was tinny sound not heard? were buttons not peeling/coming off? etc and etc. every time I see someone post "the buttons fell off my brand new phone" and someone else nonchalantly posts up "just return it" like its easy and not a waste of time, it irritates me. its shouldnt have to be that way.

again, perhaps the issues we see can be chalked up to "lemons" and are a small percentage of the total, totally amplified by the interwebs. but I find it unacceptable when people's answers to other's problems are "return the phone for another one" or "install .161" when said device has been on the market for 8 days now. the phones should have been released without these glitches, or so it seems to me.

does this bother anyone else? or am I way off base here?

maybe I should just come to the realization (and quit whining) that I cannot have exactly what I want, and go back to multi-phoning and be content carrying both my 9000 and 3gs.

[mark_rivers19]

why do people with iphones carry more than one phone?
it takes one to know one.
i totally understand your concern.. and your questions..
and i'm adding it to my LIST that needs to be answered.

my 2 cents though..
it's not just RIM.. look at apple with iphone 4 and the design of the antenna..
then microsoft and windows VISTA..
and then the IRAQ war..
and now Afghanistan..
then bailing out AIG, Goldman Sachs..

maybe things really look good on paper no?

[KahneFan]

It's not just BB that does this. Many phones put on the market have issues with the first release and then get fixed with an upgrade program, including the precious iPhone. At least the Torch doesn't drop calls because you hold it wrong. If you've been on the web as long as you say you have, you probably know that message boards tend to fill up with nay sayers. "The squeeky wheel gets the grease". I've had my Torch for about 4 days and have no majopr complaints. It does have the "tinny" sound, but so did my 8350i, but it was fixed with the first update, as I'm sure my torch will be.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[jetman1287]

It's good to wait a month for the hype to die down and see what these devices really are about. Usually there's so much hype around a new phone, the pictures look great and new just feels good....then a couple months later the phone is looking dead.

Which phones are still relevant after the hype dies down? The Curve 8330, Moto Droid, iPhone 3GS, and now possibly the Droid X fit that mold.

[osubass1]

a friend of mine went through 3 iPhone4's before he was able to get one that didn't give the NO SIM CARD FOUND error.

just so happened the one he ended up with is the worst when it comes to dropping calls.

you have to take it all for what it's worth. people rarely, if ever, post to say how well everything's going.

...and for what it's worth, i'm still using my launch day Torch and think it's great.

[mark_rivers19]

a friend of mine went through 3 iPhone4's before he was able to get one that didn't give the NO SIM CARD FOUND error.

just so happened the one he ended up with is the worst when it comes to dropping calls.

you have to take it all for what it's worth. people rarely, if ever, post to say how well everything's going.

...and for what it's worth, i'm still using my launch day Torch and think it's great.

APPLE having quality problems????
YOU can't be serious!! are you for REAL?

Seriously though..
i had to exchange 3 macbook pro 15 inch late 2008 edition to get the one with an ok to good screen..
the first 2 have problems with color calibration.

[GibMcFragger]

I understand your post completely. Generally, as you most likely know by now, the intarwebz is great for allowing people to whine and complain as well as look for help with issues. Generally a LOT more people that are having problems will take the time to post about it than would those who DON'T have issues. Yes, this phone isn't perfect right out of the gate, but you have to know that these are but a few issues out of all the units they have sold.

[branflakes]

I'm an IT tech who works with PCs, Macs, networking equipment, smartphones, and whatever other electronics my clients get and want me to support. I see it all the time with any product. There are going to be defective parts in some builds. What I rarely see is something that is always bad (Dell laptops being an exception). You can have overall good build quality on a product and still have bad batches. Just the reality of electronics with all their sensitive and complicated parts.

As others said, go to forums for any other smartphone. There are going to be complaints-people post on forums looking for answers to their problems. Some of the problems are software bugs (especially in new releases), some are simply users not knowing how to do what they want with their phone, and some are actual defective phones.

These phones come with a 30 day exchange policy. I say it's fair to recommend those with buttons loose or significant wiggle/wobble in the slider to replace their phone.

I'm also using my launch day Torch with no issues.

[qbnkelt]

I manage several IT programs. The concept of the "clean release" or "clean install" is such a desired, longed for event....yet more often than not there are tweaks. Systems don't behave as we think they should. Or someone down the pipe changes a system that my system interacts with rendering my system inoperable and we have to revert to the prior version. Which is the reason we install/release during weekends and we show up in sweats/jeans, order pizza, and get ready for 48 hours of possible problems. We can what - if, we can stress test, we can risk mitigate to kingdom come, but in the final hours, a glitch no one foresaw can bring us all down.

Not making an excuse for RIM, stating a fact of systems/programs. Oh, and my Torch is as close to perfection as I could wish for.

[mikesatx]

There is never going to be a phone that is bug or glitch free.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[AG212]

I agree with the OP.

It wouldnt be acceptable to me personally to have to wipe and reload the device just to get a performance level that should have been there straight from RIM.

[Najo]

Agreed, I wish this were not the case. And I do consider it unacceptable, but we get what we get. I think one of the longstanding issues when it comes to forums is when some device have issues they tend to get magnified. People jump on and complain about said issues without ever laying a hand on the device. Is the Torch a perfect phone? Nope, but it works great for some that received good first run devices. And there is a 30 day trade and software options for fixing others. As mentioned above it is tech nowadays, everything relies on software. I had to download an update for my Blu-ray palyer to get it working right. My Dell XPS laptop was returned twice first because the keyboard was warped and touching the screen when closed and second because of battery issues and the darned logo fell of the lid. Seems nothing is perfect anymore. Am I making excuses for the Torch, no but folks should use the resources available to fix initial issues before they write the thing off as crap.

[BuffDragon]

I manage several IT programs. The concept of the "clean release" or "clean install" is such a desired, longed for event....yet more often than not there are tweaks. Systems don't behave as we think they should. Or someone down the pipe changes a system that my system interacts with rendering my system inoperable and we have to revert to the prior version. Which is the reason we install/release during weekends and we show up in sweats/jeans, order pizza, and get ready for 48 hours of possible problems. We can what - if, we can stress test, we can risk mitigate to kingdom come, but in the final hours, a glitch no one foresaw can bring us all down.

Not making an excuse for RIM, stating a fact of systems/programs. Oh, and my Torch is as close to perfection as I could wish for.

this does in fact make sense to me, but I guess I'm so conditioned to my own business world, that basically, when I roll out my "product" (service, is a better way to describe my industry), it basically has to be as close to perfect as possible or my hard fought/earned customer goes somewhere else. 20 years of doing the same thing tends to get you in that rut, I suppose...

[xandermac]

I'll just touch on the 161 issue seeing as my hardware is perfect. 161 isn't a necessary patch, it's a LEAK. And quite frankly it's crap. I downgraded back to 141. Just a little research goes a long way.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[qbnkelt]

True....sometimes the flies in the ointment show up at the last moment....

We once had an install that went perfectly...we congratulated ourselves, tested the system in our closed environment, stress tested it, all went beautifully and we went to bed....ummm....home, to our respective beds....

Monday morning, system after system began to crash. Couldn't figure out what the h3ll was going on.

Found out after we called several agencies we interact with that one of them had upgraded their instance of Oracle and had not notified us. We had developed and tested for the older version because they had not notified us of their plans to upgrade Oracle and we did not know that the night before our release they had upgraded.

Oooooopppssssssss........

I now send out a request for a description of all systems that interact with ours, even to agencies external to ours.

[scorpiodsu]

I agree with the OP.

It wouldnt be acceptable to me personally to have to wipe and reload the device just to get a performance level that should have been there straight from RIM.

Exactly. On another post someone asked if anyone one else was having freezing problems with their torch. The very first response was "Did you wipe the device before you used it? It makes a big difference". Why the heck do I need to wipe a brand new device. Sure there are always some problems with each device released but the response from people shouldn't act like it's no big deal. This is why companies release the crap they do because they know people still will buy and try to sweep the problems under the rug. And it doesn't matter what happens with the iphone 4 or any other device. Stop using other phones as the standard. So what's acceptable for Apple must be acceptable for RIM? Deflecting the attention to other devices doesn't justify your device being a lemon. The OP is 100% right.

[qbnkelt]

Deflecting the attention to other devices doesn't justify your device being a lemon.

ABSOLUTELY agree!!!! I'm glad Mike said that to Jobs in the middle of antennagate........

http://crackberry.com/rim-official-s...nna-propaganda

[TheScionicMan]

I could maybe get behind your point if this situation was exclusive to RIM, but its not. It's a part of mass-production and scale of testing. This is why they give a 30-day return policy and a year of warranty. Show me the phone/OS that doesn't have ANY problems...

[sraldiris]

let's get this out of the way. I'm not a troll, but feel free to call me one. I've spent too many years in/around/moderating message boards to have my feelings hurt by internet tough guys lashing out without understanding the intentions behind posts.

I have a problem.
the problem, is I've been waiting and wanting the torch since it first became rumored. seemed like the end all, do all and a blackberry to boot. EXACTLY what I want.

but in watching the threads here and reviews and etc, the Torch is either not up to expectations, or is having an unusual amount of "lemons" in their shipments. or is exactly what RIM needed to dole out to the masses, whatever. at this point, today, it is what it is.

BUT....I dont understand why its acceptable to a lot of people to have to return a phone to get a new one that "works" (or isnt broken, whatever...blanket statement). there's members who have returned more than one phone. several, in fact. and why is it acceptable for a tweak (OS .161) to be "needed" less than one week since the device itself was launched? "growing pains" as it has been said. growing pains? RIM is supposed to be better than that. people had these things for weeks. was tinny sound not heard? were buttons not peeling/coming off? etc and etc. every time I see someone post "the buttons fell off my brand new phone" and someone else nonchalantly posts up "just return it" like its easy and not a waste of time, it irritates me. its shouldnt have to be that way.

again, perhaps the issues we see can be chalked up to "lemons" and are a small percentage of the total, totally amplified by the interwebs. but I find it unacceptable when people's answers to other's problems are "return the phone for another one" or "install .161" when said device has been on the market for 8 days now. the phones should have been released without these glitches, or so it seems to me.

does this bother anyone else? or am I way off base here?

maybe I should just come to the realization (and quit whining) that I cannot have exactly what I want, and go back to multi-phoning and be content carrying both my 9000 and 3gs.

I'm with you.

[BuffDragon]

Show me the phone/OS that doesn't have ANY problems...

my 9000 has been pretty great for the year plus I've had it.
granted, I didnt get it on launch day/week, so maybe some of the initial bugs had been worked out of it by the time I got it. the only thing that's ever happened to it was when I broke the headphone jack. pretty sure I'm to blame for that one...

I did get my 8300 whatever it was (the very first curve when they came out) and it performed flawlessly for my wife and I both, for almost 2 years before they puked.

so yes, I do believe that its possible for a device to come out and work/perform as expected.

maybe that's part of the problem.....I'm expecting too much.

[Vajraja]

As stated before people usually use forums like this when they have a problem and are requesting solutions. Most people are either satisfied with their device and won't come on to say how much they love their device, or have issues and will return them/get them fixed.

The way I use my car forums, you would think my car is a hunk of junk, but in reality it's great and I just want some people who are more knowledgeable to fix an occasional issue.

[TheScionicMan]

my 9000 has been pretty great for the year plus I've had it.
granted, I didnt get it on launch day/week, so maybe some of the initial bugs had been worked out of it by the time I got it. the only thing that's ever happened to it was when I broke the headphone jack. pretty sure I'm to blame for that one...

I did get my 8300 whatever it was (the very first curve when they came out) and it performed flawlessly for my wife and I both, for almost 2 years before they puked.

so yes, I do believe that its possible for a device to come out and work/perform as expected.

maybe that's part of the problem.....I'm expecting too much.

I didn't mean a single phone, I meant a brand since the OP is trying to make this a RIM-only issue. There are defective phones from every maker on every platform. There's often a line at the Genius Bar, even...

Different people have different thresholds of acceptance. When I bought my 8700, the Y key wouldn't work 20% of the time. Part of me worried that things would get worse and I should return it ASAP. The other part said it wasn't really worth the hassles and I had a year of warranty if it got worse. It never got worse and was rarely an issue for me and I was glad I didn't waste the time or risk getting a replacement that might have other issues. Some people would have marched right back to the store...

We're dealing with multiple mass-produced components being put together into one device. The expectation that every piece is perfect and will go together perfectly and each will be thoroughly tested is too much, IMO.

[AmigaDude]

.. in watching the threads here and reviews and etc, the Torch is either not up to expectations, or is having an unusual amount of "lemons" in their shipments.
..
does this bother anyone else? or am I way off base here?

I feel your pain! In fact, for the first few days I seriously thought about not getting one and just hanging in there with my 9000. Like you, I expect my electronics to work from day one and HATE the thought of returning/exchanging anything that I spent my time and money on.

Luckily I remembered that MOST people who post forum messages either don't know what the heck they are talking about, and/or just love to complain. I learned along time ago to throw out the best and the worst reviews (since those are the fanboys/wackos) and see if there is a consensus amongst the rest. I decided that the phone was an improved BB, but not an iPhone killer (as if I ever thought it would be...) which makes it good for me.

So, if you want an iPhone killer .. keep looking since it is not here or anywhere. If you want an improved BB, skip the .161, etc.. noise and try the phone out for yourself. I think you just might like it.

[BuffDragon]

I didn't mean a single phone, I meant a brand since the OP is trying to make this a RIM-only issue. There are defective phones from every maker on every platform. .

I am the OP and I was making this more than a RIM-only issue.....a Torch issue, in fact. as that's what I'm concerned about.
maybe I wasnt paying attention back in the day, but I didnt have issues on my pearl, curve, or bold like what's being discussed on the torch. and the curves, (I had one and wife had one) were launch day purchases that were flawless from day one, never upgrading OS, etc.

So, if you want an iPhone killer .. keep looking since it is not here or anywhere. If you want an improved BB, skip the .161, etc.. noise and try the phone out for yourself. I think you just might like it.

not really looking for an iphone killer. particularly since I have one and a dysfunctional work environment means I have to carry two phones anyways. was just hoping for....I dunno....more? from the torch. maybe its there, hidden beneath the forum crap lol

As stated before people usually use forums like this when they have a problem and are requesting solutions. Most people are either satisfied with their device and won't come on to say how much they love their device, or have issues and will return them/get them fixed.

The way I use my car forums, you would think my car is a hunk of junk, but in reality it's great and I just want some people who are more knowledgeable to fix an occasional issue.

definetely true! but that's part of my complaint/frustration. people come on here (like me) and are slammed for trolling.

oh well.
I still have very high hopes for the torch and will probably wind up with one as I have no desire to switch to a android phone. just thinking that maybe waiting a little bit to get one has been a good idea.

[pjmacklin]

at the end of the day, it's...a cell phone! it's about a cell phone! the excessive/obsessive actions/reactions of many who have purchased these phones, as well as their need to surface there issues, is something better left to mental health professionals! i mean, really, it's just a cell phone! really!

the whole fatalistic discussion regarding the phone, rim, the cell phone industry, ****, the fate of the world...is so silly, entirely beyond me and tiring! it seems odd that people of means and some intelligence find it necessary to drone on and on about something so inconsequential! it is, after all, a cell phone!

i come here hoping to learn something, to gain some insight on how to better utilize my device. these forums can be good for things like that. instead, however, the good stuff gets buried by the multiple threads that largely say the same thing! that, or the attention ***** who needs to make it clear to the world he intends to wait until the device (any device) is improved! really?

i have my torch and am liking it so far. these forums have been helpful, to a point, in identifying some of the many "how to's" for this device. i know it's not an iphone or a droid. could have gotten either if i'd wanted but didn't. the torch is clearly a step or 3 above my beloved curve and i look forward to the day that i'm completely comfortable with it. i look forward to learning more here at crackberry. now, if we could coax the self serving, self righteous attention seekers continue their quest elsewhere...! really!