[kb5zht]

I listen to most blackberry podcasts and blogs only to get the latest need and reports, but most of them are die hard "would follow RIM to the gates of ****" fanbois so I ignore their opinions (I swear they would get excited it RIM even released an ashtray with their logo on it.... Nothing RIM does is wrong).

That said, cb's podcast finally released some info that explains why it appears that RIM is stuck in a time warp leaving it perpetually two years behind the competition. The first I never considered, the second I had a strong huntch that it was the case but this confirmed it.

So the 9800 comes out and all the tech people rip it apart. The two biggest conserns: 1) The OS still isn't up to snuff and 2) why are they still underpowering the hardware (cpu)

Okay, as for the OS, evidently blackberry's OS is far more complex than the rival's phones. This is easy to understand when you compare everything - and I mean everything - their OS has to deal with and has expected of it. All the options, all the flexibility, all the communications capacity... When you try to upgrade any one aspect, nothing can happen except incrementally lest the whole structure collapses. Thus, OS 6 can't be anything but a slight improvement over 5 (and it is an improvement). This could very well be why the new storm coming is rumored to have a whole new OS; the snappy, smooth responses and UI that the consumer now demands (and has some manufacturers meeting) cannot be done anytime soon, if ever, on the current OS. In order to make an automobile fly you would have to alter it so much you may as well build a new plane. This finally makes sense.

Okay, on the #2... I had already guessed this may be true and this irritates me worse since it is true. Question: Since RIM can buy the same parts apple and Motorola do, why don't they buy better hardware to stock new devices with? Okay, usually if you follow the money you will find your answers, in business and politics alike. Answer: RIM buys so much hardware in bulk, it chooses to use it up before restocking newer (thus better) hardware. This is just a plain, lame, crappy business model for 2010. Yes RIM could call all the shots when it was the only show in town, but now there are two new contenders and I would bet by the end of next year twice that many at least, there is no way they will be able to keep up. RIM apparently plans upgrades in much longer business cycles than apple or Motorola; this means a truly innovative product may be out every 3 to 5 years whereas the competition is putting better smartphones in the consumer's hands on a yearly or so time frame. Again, here in 2010 the demanding consumer won't stand for poor planning. He doesn't have to.

Either RIM will adapt its business model to be more competitive now or, as I remarked in another thread, its a dinosaur. When you have dozens of smartphones at the store glittering in your eye and sporting hot, fancy, cutting edge hardware, a business that says "this is all we are willing to offer, take it or leave it" will not survive. The consumer will take his hard - earned money and say "uuuuuuuummm... I think I will pick option 2" and move on.

Hey, don't hate me ; I didn't make the rules. I am just telling you how the game is played.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[whsbuss]

I listen to most blackberry podcasts and blogs only to get the latest need and reports, but most of them are die hard "would follow RIM to the gates of ****" fanbois so I ignore their opinions (I swear they would get excited it RIM even released an ashtray with their logo on it.... Nothing RIM does is wrong).

That said, cb's podcast finally released some info that explains why it appears that RIM is stuck in a time warp leaving it perpetually two years behind the competition. The first I never considered, the second I had a strong huntch that it was the case but this confirmed it.

So the 9800 comes out and all the tech people rip it apart. The two biggest conserns: 1) The OS still isn't up to snuff and 2) why are they still underpowering the hardware (cpu)

Okay, as for the OS, evidently blackberry's OS is far more complex than the rival's phones. This is easy to understand when you compare everything - and I mean everything - their OS has to deal with and has expected of it. All the options, all the flexibility, all the communications capacity... When you try to upgrade any one aspect, nothing can happen except incrementally lest the whole structure collapses. Thus, OS 6 can't be anything but a slight improvement over 5 (and it is an improvement). This could very well be why the new storm coming is rumored to have a whole new OS; the snappy, smooth responses and UI that the consumer now demands (and has some manufacturers meeting) cannot be done anytime soon, if ever, on the current OS. In order to make an automobile fly you would have to alter it so much you may as well build a new plane. This finally makes sense.

Okay, on the #2... I had already guessed this may be true and this irritates me worse since it is true. Question: Since RIM can buy the same parts apple and Motorola do, why don't they buy better hardware to stock new devices with? Okay, usually if you follow the money you will find your answers, in business and politics alike. Answer: RIM buys so much hardware in bulk, it chooses to use it up before restocking newer (thus better) hardware. This is just a plain, lame, crappy business model for 2010. Yes RIM could call all the shots when it was the only show in town, but now there are two new contenders and I would bet by the end of next year twice that many at least, there is no way they will be able to keep up. RIM apparently plans upgrades in much longer business cycles than apple or Motorola; this means a truly innovative product may be out every 3 to 5 years whereas the competition is putting better smartphones in the consumer's hands on a yearly or so time frame. Again, here in 2010 the demanding consumer won't stand for poor planning. He doesn't have to.

Either RIM will adapt its business model to be more competitive now or, as I remarked in another thread, its a dinosaur. When you have dozens of smartphones at the store glittering in your eye and sporting hot, fancy, cutting edge hardware, a business that says "this is all we are willing to offer, take it or leave it" will not survive. The consumer will take his hard - earned money and say "uuuuuuuummm... I think I will pick option 2" and move on.

Hey, don't hate me ; I didn't make the rules. I am just telling you how the game is played.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

Hey, nothing to hate. Good opinions in your comments. Like all business its not cost efficient to just toss out hardware that's paid for even if its not the latest and greatest. All the talk about not being a 1ghz processor is valid, but for the OS it runs, it may be enough. Only extensive usage when its released will tell the story.

Consumers always love glitz..... but sometimes glitz doesn't matter unless the device works well and meets their needs. Freedom of choice and competition makes for great phones. The consumer will vote with their wallets and if RIM, Apple, or Android don't make the grade then so be it.

[lush242000]

I had a few thoughts about what they did and why. I would say they stuck to what they know. Use a processor that works and is reliable. Upgrade the O.S. but keep it the same general feel for those that have been using berries. Use the screen that works and is reliable.

I really see this as a transition phone. It takes the best of what they have and new and gets it on the street quickly. I don't fault them at all for it. When I first heard about the slider I was not excited. When I saw the first pictures I definitely was not excited. As the videos started dropped, I watched them some some interest. When it was launched I read all the reviews. No one was "blown" away by it. Ok. So, I went down to the store to actually play with it. Now I am a believer. I will buy this device as soon as possible, which appears to be about 10am on Thursday.

I had considered going and getting a Iphone 4 and would have if I could have easily found one. I will not stand in line for a phone. So, thanks to the sheeple for buying them all up and to RIM for dropping this device. It stopped me from leaving the ranks.

I typically buy a new phone every year. In fact I have been using the 9700 since January. So i'm not really worried if in 6 months a better one comes out. I will most likely just go out and buy it as well.

Anyway. You will either buy it or not. Me, I'm buying it to give it a whirl. It's only a couple of hundred dollars.

[kb5zht]

I had a few thoughts about what they did and why. I would say they stuck to what they know. Use a processor that works and is reliable. Upgrade the O.S. but keep it the same general feel for those that have been using berries. Use the screen that works and is reliable.

I really see this as a transition phone. It takes the best of what they have and new and gets it on the street quickly. I don't fault them at all for it. When I first heard about the slider I was not excited. When I saw the first pictures I definitely was not excited. As the videos started dropped, I watched them some some interest. When it was launched I read all the reviews. No one was "blown" away by it. Ok. So, I went down to the store to actually play with it. Now I am a believer. I will buy this device as soon as possible, which appears to be about 10am on Thursday.

I had considered going and getting a Iphone 4 and would have if I could have easily found one. I will not stand in line for a phone. So, thanks to the sheeple for buying them all up and to RIM for dropping this device. It stopped me from leaving the ranks.

I typically buy a new phone every year. In fact I have been using the 9700 since January. So i'm not really worried if in 6 months a better one comes out. I will most likely just go out and buy it as well.

Anyway. You will either buy it or not. Me, I'm buying it to give it a whirl. It's only a couple of hundred dollars.

I have heard one unconfirmed rumor about the 9800... We should know soon if its true since the torch is out now.... That the 4gb onboard memory is totally available for apps. Not one megabyte of the OS has to use it. Okay, now that is sweeeeeeeet .

But hey, I am hearing that the "blackpad" will be out in Sept.! The world is a little brighter now. Come oooooon RIM...... pull your @SS out of that ditch!

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[VZWman1987]

Very well thought out and written. I think RIM is starting to come to the realization that people want the latest and greatest spec wise even if it is unnecessary. I agree that a touch screen probably runs better with a 1ghz processor, but I also know of several that sell with 624 mhz or less. I agree with the statement this phone is probably a bridge towards the next model of phone, which, hopefully, will blow the rest away, and if the storm 2 refresh has 1 ghz and 1gb of ram, it may just be able to do that.

[Drayk]

I had a few thoughts about what they did and why. I would say they stuck to what they know. Use a processor that works and is reliable. Upgrade the O.S. but keep it the same general feel for those that have been using berries. Use the screen that works and is reliable.

I really see this as a transition phone. It takes the best of what they have and new and gets it on the street quickly. I don't fault them at all for it. When I first heard about the slider I was not excited. When I saw the first pictures I definitely was not excited. As the videos started dropped, I watched them some some interest. When it was launched I read all the reviews. No one was "blown" away by it. Ok. So, I went down to the store to actually play with it. Now I am a believer. I will buy this device as soon as possible, which appears to be about 10am on Thursday.

I had considered going and getting a Iphone 4 and would have if I could have easily found one. I will not stand in line for a phone. So, thanks to the sheeple for buying them all up and to RIM for dropping this device. It stopped me from leaving the ranks.

I typically buy a new phone every year. In fact I have been using the 9700 since January. So i'm not really worried if in 6 months a better one comes out. I will most likely just go out and buy it as well.

Anyway. You will either buy it or not. Me, I'm buying it to give it a whirl. It's only a couple of hundred dollars.

I'm with lush on this one.
RIM did what they knew they could do, and with what they had. I'm glad they didn't try to swing for the fence and flame out...see Storm 1.
I view this as "dipping their toe in the water".
They took the plunge and stepped outside their comfort zone, I applaud them.
I'm excited to see what the future brings for bb.
I, too, will have one of these little shooters living in my front/right pocket come 10:30 am Thursday, 12. And I"ll have gen II replacing it when that drops.
Why?.......because I'm a crackhead......that's why!
Great synopsis OP....good post lush.....I got you're back on this....

[kb5zht]

I typically buy a new phone every year. In fact I have been using the 9700 since January. So i'm not really worried if in 6 months a better one comes out. I will most likely just go out and buy it as well.

Anyway. You will either buy it or not. Me, I'm buying it to give it a whirl. It's only a couple of hundred dollars

Well RIM isn't going away any time soon. Should they (and more importantly the stockholders) be satisfied with their business model and corresponding results then they will always have a large enough market of those who just want a solid device, regardless of whether its the latest and greatest, to keep them going. They will most likely grab headlines every three to five years then fade away again with google, apple and maybe a third company staying in the spotlight. I feel most likely this is rim's future. Yes their top tier spot is probably forever gone but they won't ever fall into bankruptcy, either.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[jeffreii]

First off, I agree with your sentiment that RIM needs to push the envelope a little more...but I'm not entirely on board.

You have to realize that the BGRs, Engadgets and other techies of the world comprise a rather small portion of RIM's target audience. When they attempt to reach the consumer market, they're probably not aiming solely at the techies. Your average smartphone consumer has no clue how fast a 624Mhz processor is. Resolution means nothing to them. Think more like "fast or slow" and "pretty screen or not."

MOST people I know with the iPhone hardly use most of its capabilities and have no clue about the hardware...this includes both my parents, my brother, my girlfriend, many of my friends and other relatives. MOST of them own an iPhone because it's cool and trendy and they like the touchscreen.

Next, I have to point out that my brief experience playing with the 9800 I recognized two important things: the screen looked good and the OS was SNAPPY. Very snappy. That being said, should RIM have made the device cost significantly more and have much less battery life just so they could boast a 1Ghz processor and an iPhone4-like screen?

I don't really think that's consistent with RIM's goals and their target audience. The 9800 is good looking, smaller than the competition, and performs well (in a limited testing environment). For me, personally, the BlackBerry OS is better than iOS4. Not because of games or apps or things like that...but because it works very well for communicating. On a BB, phone, messaging, notifications, etc. are as good as it gets.

[FineWolf]

RIM's hardware is more balanced then the rest of the smartphone I've seen on the market. Creating embedded devices requires careful balance between size, power (computational and electrical) and weight. I think that while RIM may look behind in computational power, they are well ahead of the competition when it comes to balancing their hardware.

Change:

Higher resolution screen

• Bigger Render Buffer
• More LED dots

Bigger Render Buffer

• More memory required
• More processing power required

Consequences:

More LED dots

• Negative impact on battery life

More Memory Required

• Less memory available for other tasks

More Processing Power Required

• Less processing power available for other tasks

Solutions:

Stronger Processor

• Negative impact on battery life (big probability of)
• Possible impact on dice size (ie.: bigger chip)

More RAM (Memory)

• Negative impact on battery life (big probability of)
• Possible impact on dice size (ie.: bigger or more chips)

More powerful battery

• Possible impact on device weight (heavier)
• Change in battery size

Problems due to "solutions":

Negative impact on battery life

• Device runs out of power quicker

Dice Size Change

• Bigger components
• May lead to bigger device
• May lead to weight change (heavier)
• May lead to compromised in components (missing components [WiFi])

Weight Change

• Heavier device
• Unbalanced weight

Everything in an embedded device needs to be balanced. Changing one thing has repercussion on other things and you always need to compromise at one point. I rather that compromise be on resolution then on anything else. I design embedded device as a living... It's not a simple as simply putting in new components and calling it a day.

[jeffreii]

RIM's hardware is more balanced then the rest of the smartphone I've seen on the market. Creating embedded devices requires careful balance between size, power (computational and electrical) and weight. I think that while RIM may look behind in computational power, they are well ahead of the competition when it comes to balancing their hardware.

Change:

Higher resolution screen

• Bigger Render Buffer
• More LED dots

Bigger Render Buffer

• More memory required
• More processing power required

Consequences:

More LED dots

• Negative impact on battery life

More Memory Required

• Less memory available for other tasks

More Processing Power Required

• Less processing power available for other tasks

Solutions:

Stronger Processor

• Negative impact on battery life (big probability of)
• Possible impact on dice size (ie.: bigger chip)

More RAM (Memory)

• Negative impact on battery life (big probability of)
• Possible impact on dice size (ie.: bigger or more chips)

More powerful battery

• Possible impact on device weight (heavier)
• Change in battery size

Problems due to "solutions":

Negative impact on battery life

• Device runs out of power quicker

Dice Size Change

• Bigger components
• May lead to bigger device
• May lead to weight change (heavier)
• May lead to compromised in components (missing components [WiFi])

Weight Change

• Heavier device
• Unbalanced weight

Everything in an embedded device needs to be balanced. Changing one thing has repercussion on other things and you always need to compromise at one point. I rather that compromise be on resolution then on anything else. I design embedded device as a living... It's not a simple as simply putting in new components and calling it a day.

Absolutely makes sense. This device could NOT be a brick or it would fail for sure. It's bad to be like an Android device and be huge (length, width) but even worse, in my opinion, to be over-sized on depth (brick).

It's impossible at this time to keep the device equal to or smaller than an iPhone if you want to keep the physical keyboard AND have the bigger processor and screen resolution.

I do wish they would make a Bold 9000-sized device and pack it full of top of the line hardware to make use of the bigger size while preserving the best keyboard ever. This from someone who obviously prefers the 9000 size over the smaller 9700.

[Drayk]

Absolutely makes sense. This device could NOT be a brick or it would fail for sure. It's bad to be like an Android device and be huge (length, width) but even worse, in my opinion, to be over-sized on depth (brick).

It's impossible at this time to keep the device equal to or smaller than an iPhone if you want to keep the physical keyboard AND have the bigger processor and screen resolution.

I do wish they would make a Bold 9000-sized device and pack it full of top of the line hardware to make use of the bigger size while preserving the best keyboard ever. This from someone who obviously prefers the 9000 size over the smaller 9700.

Well, there you have!!

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[_StephenBB81]

Well thought out post, BUT I think you are also missing some research.


RIM builds there own cdma/gsm communication stacks, this is what helps with how they conserve batterylife and how they get connectivity in areas other phones have a challenge.

RIM uses Marvell Chips for GSM, and Qualcomm for CDMA, I would venture to guess that since Marvell has fallen behind in the processor speed game they will not be the Chip provider for GSM long, but RIM has already made the commitments with Marvell probably through 2010 production and invested heavily into writing the code to go with the Marvell chip set. this is why the GSM phones are so far behind the competition, in terms of Mhz.

I agree they probably do purchasing agreements further out than Apple/Motorola/HTC in part because they have to wait longer for delivery to their plants coming on containers across the ocean, and in part because they have to build the OS core for their chips which takes much longer, Neither HTC/Motorola or Apple have actually built their Kernels, those come from the Linux/BSD group with modifications.

People don't seem to realize that there are multiple manufacturers out there and although the processors are theoretically backwards compatible, the chipsets to go with them probably are not, so a full rewrite of some of the core applications would need to be done.

I am very hopeful that they are working on that with their acquisitions, they are dropping Marvell, OR Marvell has something sneaky hidden away for an LTE chipset, but I'm more inclined to say RIM will Ditch Marvell as it's chip provider and go 100% Qualcomm to keep pace with the Likes of HTC/Motorola/Apple


On the Software side, I don't see how RIM is any slower than Apple at releasing OS advancements, the difference is Apple has all the apps that tie into the advancements, and they are including functions that RIM already had, RIM's "Lack of innovation" seems to be very much on the UI side of the OS, it seems the public sees UI advancements as the only advancements that matter, integration and streamlining of processes seems not to matter, improving Battery life, or reducing memory problems, again don't matter. I'm sorry but it took apple 3 years to make multi tasking, with 2-3 times the hardware capacity, and it is RIM being told they are the ones without innovation.

my Feelings are that RIM lacks a clear path, something Jobs has, and is very good at sharing with his staff and the public, RIM needs to make its plans clear, it needs to back it's plans up and what it has to offer with advertising, and press releases, RIM has a comparable device to a vast majority of people, which is why it still outsold both Apple and Android in every quarter thus far.

I'm far from someone who thinks RIM can do no wrong, as I have posted my feelings of things I would change many times, but I don't think they are as out of touch as the media and the forum crowd make them out to be. they just don't know how to communicate with the public yet.

[avt123]

but I'm more inclined to say RIM will Ditch Marvell as it's chip provider and go 100% Qualcomm just like Apple, and HTC/Motorola as they have the speed crown right now.

I assume you are talking about processors? Since when was Qualcomm the sole chip provider for Apple, HTC and Motorola? Apple and Moto do not use Snapdragon processors. That is HTC. Snapdragon (current editions) is currently behind in the game right now. TI OMAP 3 (and the soon to be OMAP 4) is a much more efficient processor, same with Samsungs Hummingbird edition and Apples A4.

[_StephenBB81]

I assume you are talking about processors? Since when was Qualcomm the sole chip provider for Apple, HTC and Motorola? Apple and Moto do not use Snapdragon processors. That is HTC. Snapdragon (current editions) is currently behind in the game right now. TI OMAP 3 (and the soon to be OMAP 4) is a much more efficient processor, same with Samsungs Hummingbird edition and Apples A4.

I'll edit that out,

cared to read what processor Apple uses, and you are correct they are not Qualcomm

[avt123]

I'll edit that out,

cared to read what processor Apple uses, and you are correct they are not Qualcomm

It's a very easy error to make. All you hear these days is "Qualcomm Snapdragon this" or "1GHz Qualcomm Snapdragon that..". Most people assume that all the 1GHz processors out are "Snapdragons".

[jaymojones]

I do wish they would make a Bold 9000-sized device and pack it full of top of the line hardware to make use of the bigger size while preserving the best keyboard ever. This from someone who obviously prefers the 9000 size over the smaller 9700.

I truly believe we will see this in the near future!!! And I will be right on it, when it does

[JJ452]

First off, I agree with your sentiment that RIM needs to push the envelope a little more...but I'm not entirely on board.

You have to realize that the BGRs, Engadgets and other techies of the world comprise a rather small portion of RIM's target audience. When they attempt to reach the consumer market, they're probably not aiming solely at the techies. Your average smartphone consumer has no clue how fast a 624Mhz processor is. Resolution means nothing to them. Think more like "fast or slow" and "pretty screen or not."

MOST people I know with the iPhone hardly use most of its capabilities and have no clue about the hardware...this includes both my parents, my brother, my girlfriend, many of my friends and other relatives. MOST of them own an iPhone because it's cool and trendy and they like the touchscreen.

Next, I have to point out that my brief experience playing with the 9800 I recognized two important things: the screen looked good and the OS was SNAPPY. Very snappy. That being said, should RIM have made the device cost significantly more and have much less battery life just so they could boast a 1Ghz processor and an iPhone4-like screen?

I don't really think that's consistent with RIM's goals and their target audience. The 9800 is good looking, smaller than the competition, and performs well (in a limited testing environment). For me, personally, the BlackBerry OS is better than iOS4. Not because of games or apps or things like that...but because it works very well for communicating. On a BB, phone, messaging, notifications, etc. are as good as it gets.

Indeed, the corporate world doesn't need a 1GHz phone that has 16GB of memory and Plants vs Zombies. It needs to be easy to use, reliable and secure and there is a reason RIM have cornered that section of the market.

[Masahiro]

A lot of good points have been brought up in this thread. Basically, as deRusett says, it would be very costly in terms of time and money for RIM to suddenly dump their current stock and contract commitments and go with a top of the line (for now) processor. It would make the phones more appealing, yes, but only for the few that actually pay attention to hardware specs. As jeffreii points out, those that follow BGR, Engadget, and a lot of people here on Crackberry, are probably in the minority of RIM's target market. Of everyone I know in person with a smartphone, no one really views their phones much more than as communication devices. I'm one of two people that actually visits this website. Heck, a lot of my friends don't even have full data plans.

So at the end of the day, is it worth all the trouble that deRusett highlighted? Will people other than us tech geeks really care?