[rimbuk]

I guess I really need to talk to a programmer then. Does fixing one feature break another? Like if you make the web fast does it kill bbm, or if you make the accelerometer wirk in real time does it mean the colors get reduced? I really don't understand that.

Im a programmer, I make videogames for a living.
Yes, sometimes thats what happens... you fix one thing and it breaks another. It sucks but its part of development. Its why many games these days are being released now and patched later. There's just too much going on to test every single build against every single potential issue.

[lyoko37]

Im a programmer, I make videogames for a living.
Yes, sometimes thats what happens... you fix one thing and it breaks another. It sucks but its part of development. Its why many games these days are being released now and patched later. There's just too much going on to test every single build against every single potential issue.

Correct. I mean really if code was always perfect why do we have Windows Vista?

[onstageone]

clearly the majority of Storm users....remember you're in a bubble here in Crackberry, this site by NO MEANS represents the majority...have been fine or complacent with .75, obviously not knowing any better.

cough cough...ahem! LOL

[borderwave2]

Thanks for the helpful replies, I really didn't want to ruffle any feathers. I just needed to blow off a little steam.

So we've decided that apps like bbm, phone, camera, bluetooth and accelerometer do infact impact one-another. like a problem on the e-mail setup won't necessarily stay there?

[stevcha]

Any first generation device for a company is gonna have its growing pains. We're lucky enough to have a community that has access to software that is not GA. There are plenty of Storm users that aren't aware of these leaks and are still using .65 or .75. Things could be a lot worse so enjoy what we have.

[DenverRalphy]

One of the assumptions many people mistakenly make is that each version that is leaked is a progressive release version.

Many of the releases leaked demonstrate regressions in bugs/features, not because another aspect of development broke it, but because once one bug/feature has been finished, that particular object is placed in a trunk for final release later. Only to be removed once a release candidate is up, or another object needs to be tested in conjunction with it.

So hypothetically, release 4.7.0.97 fixes bug A in a certain app/object, but that code is stored and then appears to resurface in release 4.7.0.98 which is a release intended to address a separate issue, Bug B. Bug A is still fixed in the trunk, but it's kept safely separate from other development to ensure nobody inadvertently dinks with the code.

Once all items intended to be addressed for the next official release are assumed to be finished, they are brought out of the trunk for release as a release candidate (to address any last minute hiccups).

[BajaBob]

Edit: ...The editing of one specific line of code can impact the whole operating system. These operating systems contain hundreds and maybe even thousands of lines of code. Code, which, if even a mere comma or parenthesis is omitted, can spoil the specific feature that code is tied into.

Be patient. It'll all work out.

try hundreds of thousands if not over a million lines of code, maintained and changed by a 100+ software engineers at any given time. -Increasing the room for error exponentially.

That is why we have alpha and beta releases. beta just means it graduated from alpha, and doesn't have any more of the errors they were trying to fix. That doesnt mean that a new error cant take its place. hence the reason for beta jumps, .100 -> .103 ect.

[parkster705]

cough cough...ahem! LOL

Ok. We get the point.

[Habious]

I've mentioned this one before...and I'll bring it up again...

Before the Storm, I had a Palm 700p on Verizon.

Palm (or Verizon...doesn't matter who) released a grand total of ONE firmware update in the 2+ years I had that device. ONE update.

And they screwed that one update up...badly.

They released the update...then discovered that it actually broke quite a few phones. They pulled the update and, a couple of months later, released it again.

The phone shipped with "Treo700p-1.06-VZW". The original maintenance release updated it to "Treo700p-1.10-VZW"...which broke data connectivity on many phones. They fixed that and released it as "Treo700p_-1.10-VZW" (note the underscore...they didn't even bother giving it a new firmware revision number).

The update did fix some fundamental problems the phone had but, it didn't fix everything.

One update in two years.

[bigman2]

I hear your point Bigman2, but would you not agree that the lengths to which people are going to correct a RIM's mistakes are a bit shocking. I'm only mad a RIM here, not the people like sith who are working their butts off to help us out. Why can't they make a checklist of every feature, BT audio, accelerometer speed, etc. and test each OS against it. Don't release a firmware version until all those requirements are fulfilled? Doesn't sound hard to me.

No, because as many have said, a lot of the hybrid efforts are simply "because they can."

And technically the leaked builds are just that, leaked. They aren't official in any way, and RIM would really rather they not leak. Also, before anyone puts on their tinfoil hat, claiming that RIM is secretly leaking them, that idea has been gone over numerous times and shown to be completely false in numerous ways.

If we had an official build that had some of the issues of the leaked builds, that would be another story.

And of course it's easy to say things like making a check list, but that really just doesn't work with software development. Everything is interconnected, so changing something here, could potentially have issues with some seemingly unrelated bit of code. People look at the Storm, and just see this tiny little device; they don't really take the time to appreciate the complexity of the device.

It's like I said in some other thread. How many people here understand the base theory of radio based communication? How many people understand how you convert an electrical signal into sound via a speaker? How many people here can handle a soldering iron, or know the difference between a resistor and a capacitor? It's an amazing bit of technology we take completely for granted. Which isn't to say that it couldn't use with some improvements on the software side, but you should take a minute to step back and marvel that it works at all given everything that has to come together.

[borderwave2]

Could a mod please change this thread title to " a philosophy on programming: or why it's so hard to make software that works" I think there is a lot in here that many would get a great understanding from.

[snork]

Endless firmware leaks, custom hybrid OS's. The fact that we are resorting to hacking together a working OS is laughable. Now with retailers dumping their supplies for as low as $99 + contract. I think it's just a matter of time before we realize the great degree to which RIM and Verizon shafted each and every one of us.


This is not meant to downplay the efforts of SIth and others. Their work is certainly appreciated.

cry more please. take yours back if you cant deal with it.

[fcortese]

I've mentioned this one before...and I'll bring it up again...

Before the Storm, I had a Palm 700p on Verizon.

Palm (or Verizon...doesn't matter who) released a grand total of ONE firmware update in the 2+ years I had that device. ONE update.

And they screwed that one update up...badly.

They released the update...then discovered that it actually broke quite a few phones. They pulled the update and, a couple of months later, released it again.

The phone shipped with "Treo700p-1.06-VZW". The original maintenance release updated it to "Treo700p-1.10-VZW"...which broke data connectivity on many phones. They fixed that and released it as "Treo700p_-1.10-VZW" (note the underscore...they didn't even bother giving it a new firmware revision number).

The update did fix some fundamental problems the phone had but, it didn't fix everything.

One update in two years.

Spot on, Habius! I was a victim of the Treo 700p update- my phone was so bricked it could not be brought back to life and I had to get a replacment sent. Never event bothered trying to look for an update! The Storm is not yet 3 months old, we've had one upgrade and it looks like there might be another on the horizon. I think that shows that RIM is taking this seriously. Yeah, they may have rushed a little to release the Storm, but I don't think they are ignoring their product.

[RCCollins]

The Storm is a flop, from the start its OS is a hacked up version for a touch screen device and it really shows. I doubt it will get any better over time.

[lyoko37]

The Storm is a flop, from the start its OS is a hacked up version for a touch screen device and it really shows. I doubt it will get any better over time.

And this is why you should return your Storm get a Curve and stop posting in here

[RCCollins]

And this is why you should return your Storm get a Curve and stop posting in here

I am hoping that the Pre will make its way to Verizon, or an Android device (or even better iPhone!). RIM is so far behind the competition right now i have lost faith.

[lyoko37]

I am hoping that the Pre will make its way to Verizon, or an Android device (or even better iPhone!). RIM is so far behind the competition right now i have lost faith.

iPhone won't match RIM on business phone level until it can run programs in the background.

Android would be cool..but you could technically put Android on a BlackBerry. Pre is an interesting idea but I am guessing it will be just like the Storm where it is built up a **** ton and then have problems during release.

[RCCollins]

iPhone won't match RIM on business phone level until it can run programs in the background.

Absolutely not true, we just deployed MiMvista at my work and it is incredible!

[costello302]

I was kinda po'd when I saw the price drops but thus is the tech game. Pretty much the same in every sector, hype, launch, price drops...

I've been happy with .75 and agree the Betas are questionable when it comes to there stabililty. I do agree with many that we do the upgrades for fun so it's more than having a stable device, it's the thrill of the project.

At the same time it's impossible to get away with threads like this here and not get reamed, I swear some of these people stick it to there phone the way the jump to the defense of a BB Storm/RIM/VRZ. Truly cracks me up how defensive it gets around here.

*prepares for "get an i-phone then" post*

[borderwave2]

*prepares for "get an i-phone then" post*

agreed

[Oilbrnr]

iPhone won't match RIM on business phone level until it can run programs in the background.

Meh.

What, pray tell, is so important that constant background operation is needed for business apps? What apps are out there now for the Storm that does this, and what type of battery life and free memory does the device have when they are running?

You do realize that Apple has their own plans for delivering notifications to applications on the iPhone that will let them know that a delta has occurred, this way battery life and memory use is better managed. This was supposed to be out in October, but I think after the MobileMe debacle Apple has elected to get it right out of the box.

Until RIM gets this POS OS running well, I doubt that you are going to see any real substantial apps available for it anyway. Too much of a risk for a software developer to put in time/money to invest in a one-off platform that is unstable and crippled in more ways than one.

[DenverRalphy]

Meh.

What, pray tell, is so important that constant background operation is needed for business apps?

Well for starters, the phone app, calendar, BBM and other IM's can all run simultaneously. Word/Excel docs can be viewed and edited. Email can be read and sent whithout having to close other apps (or hang up the phone). Can go on and on.

What apps are out there now for the Storm that does this, and what type of battery life and free memory does the device have when they are running? You do realize that Apple has their own plans for delivering notifications to applications on the iPhone that will let them know that a delta has occurred (sounds like a bare bones version of BB's push technology), this way battery life and memory use is better managed. This was supposed to be out in October, but I think after the MobileMe debacle Apple has elected to get it right out of the box.

And yet the Storm already does this, and more, and already has better battery life than the iPhone. Additionally Storm users can pull their battery.

Until RIM gets this POS OS running well, I doubt that you are going to see any real substantial apps available for it anyway. Too much of a risk for a software developer to put in time/money to invest in a one-off platform that is unstable and crippled in more ways than one.

The OS is already running well. And apps are already underway. Point of fact, there are more 3rd party apps out now as compared to the same release timeframe as the iphone. Of course a lot of that is due to the fact that Apple didn't even release an SDK for the iPhone for months after it was released.

Additionally, Storm users and developers don't need to hack their phones to install their own software because it may not be authorized by it's maker. Unlike iPhones who have have to Jailbreak.

[cereal killer]

Unlike iPhones who have have to Jailbreak.

No big thing. It's like installing a beta, but you only need to do it once and it doesn't jack up the phone: ) Plus dont forget the fact that jailbreaking opens the iPhone up to being an even more incredible device. Jailbroken iPhones are sweet like cherry pie baby.

[Oilbrnr]

Well for starters, the phone app, calendar, BBM and other IM's can all run simultaneously. Word/Excel docs can be viewed and edited. Email can be read and sent whithout having to close other apps (or hang up the phone). Can go on and on.

RRRRR. Not.

iPhone does sync the calender, mail, and contacts while on the phone or the internet (if only the browser was as good as the Drizzels, sorry Storm. ) Again, IM and other push able apps will soon be yet another feature of the iPhone. Please re-read that last sentence in case it didn't sink in the first time BB fanboi.

And yet the Storm already does this, and more, and already has better battery life than the iPhone. Additionally Storm users can pull their battery.

Well thank God the battery is accessable on the Storm! Given the fact you need to pull it at LEAST once a day to make the POS make it through the day. 2x

The OS is already running well. And apps are already underway. Point of fact, there are more 3rd party apps out now as compared to the same release timeframe as the iphone. Of course a lot of that is due to the fact that Apple didn't even release an SDK for the iPhone for months after it was released.

Additionally, Storm users and developers don't need to hack their phones to install their own software because it may not be authorized by it's maker. Unlike iPhones who have have to Jailbreak.

Months? Try 10. And personally I'd much rather have a stable, reliable and REASONABLY price apps than a bunch of free hacks. Additionally, if you think the performance of the user interface and OS is, "already running well," then you are very easy appeased and have very low expectations. Which is fine, if you are happy.

[aznheat]

No big thing. It's like installing a beta, but you only need to do it once and it doesn't jack up the phone: ) Plus dont forget the fact that jailbreaking opens the iPhone up to being an even more incredible device. Jailbroken iPhones are sweet like cherry pie baby.

oh wait..... you have to mod the iphone to make it a good device?