[Habious]

I will not say the Storm is perfect. There are glitches in the current OS (.85 for me), there are features that need to me addressed (kinetic scrolling, some kind of a decent speed-dial for the phone, a way to lock the screen when on a call, etc) but, as a USER of smartphones, I want RIM to fix these problems and add features that make the device more usable before spending the time to make the UI "pretty" or "slick".

I watched the Pre UI demo and I noticed a few things that I haven't seen mentioned here. Watch the demo and pay attention to when he takes a drink of water...it always seems to be when he's launching an app. It takes a couple of seconds for the app to load...it's not "instant".

Also, RIM can update the OS and fix 95% or more of the complaints people have about the Storm.

Are there going to be software updates for the Pre that update the camera from a 3.0 MP camera to at least the 3.2 MP camera that the Storm has?

Is there a software update that's going to make the 3.1" screen 3.25" like the Storm has, or 3.5" like the iPhone has?

And finally, I was SHOCKED when I saw him going over all of the hardware features and he talks about the 8GB of memory. Notice, he didn't say anything about a MEMORY SLOT. I hope that 8GB is enough because I don't see any way to expand it.

The Storm has a better camera, a bigger screen, and memory expansion capabilities. All of these, to me, are very big deals, and none of these can be overcome with a firmware update.

But, if you need a phone to Oooh and Ahhh your friends, you can get the Pre in 6 months or so. If you need something sooner, you can always buy an iPhone.

[collide.six]

The only thing I want for my BB Storm is the same SPEED I see on the iPhone and Pre. When I hit the phone button, it takes 1.5 to 2 seconds for the phone to come up. Get rid of the slow fade thing and bring in a swoop. I tend to think the slow fade is to hide some slowness.

I agree 100%. They need to make the UI a lot faster and more seemless than it currently is. It's frustrating to use right now. Yes, it's a little better with .85 but it's no where near what it should be. People that say it's fine just have low expectations. For me as a customer, I expect.. err demand better.

[Optimusv2]

The Pre may very well not be perfect, nothing is, but it looked close enough.

If the choice is between those features and a 3.2 MP camera, the choice is clear. I don't see the Storm having a 3.2 MP camera compared to the pre's 3.0 MP camera being a worthy enough advantage. It's more one of those, if you got it, then it's a nice bonus sorta situations. That's how I see the .2 advantage for the camera. I don't see it as a make or break aspect.

Memory expansion capabilities is a very big deal though. I agree with you there absolutely. You can never have enough options. The screen size is surely important, but the Pre isn't all that much worse off.

It wasn't always instant, but it was absolutely fast enough to not be an issue and take away from the impressiveness of what was being shown. In some cases it was instant. The Storm has it's rare moments when things don't instantly come up. When a device seems to work as well as that looked, you can certainly forgive it not always doing things instantly. If I wanted an oooh ahhh, the Iphone would definitely suffice, but the Pre is more than just an Oooh or an Ahhh, it's doing some amazing things. I want to feel like there are some legitimate benefits that are there.

It isn't that it's flashy that impresses me the most, it's the entire package and how it all works and comes together in addition to looking as impressive as it does. With all that said, I've been absolutely happy with the Storm. Just thought it would be awesome if RIM were actually planning to step it up to another level to prevent the competition from looking too good from comparison.

Yea, more speed and seamlessness would be better. Although those things are pointless with lack of stability. With more updates, they should be there. It would've been awesome if they were achieving that on launch though which it appears the Pre will be. Not saying there won't be problems with the Pre, but they've already outdone themselves prior to the launch of the device. And for god sakes, a browser that renders properly and works as fast and as well as those browsers seem to work. When you move up down left right on a webpage with those other devices, they are pretty much instant. There is no need to slowly re-render a page that should've already been loaded.

[Abigfish3]

One thing to keep in mind with the Palm Pre is that Palm has been dangeriously close to going down for the count as a business. I read that they stopped most new product hired guys from Apple and put all of their resources into this product. With that in mind Palm is in a very high stakes game throwing the hail mary and hoping that they have a winner. Blackberry has enjoyed growth popularity and a superior OS for business users. They will take time to get the storm right and I believe that it will be (and is ) a great device for business and a crossover to the general public. I owned a treo 700w for 3 years. There were scant updates to the OS and it was not stable. My storm has not had any major stability issues and RIM has updated the OS already one time in the last month with one in the near future. I expect they will continue to improve the storm and learn from it. I look forward to the next product RIM introduces with the touch screen platform.

Abigfish

[Optimusv2]

One thing to keep in mind with the Palm Pre is that Palm has been dangeriously close to going down for the count as a business. I read that they stopped most new product hired guys from Apple and put all of their resources into this product. With that in mind Palm is in a very high stakes game throwing the hail mary and hoping that they have a winner. Blackberry has enjoyed growth popularity and a superior OS for business users. They will take time to get the storm right and I believe that it will be (and is ) a great device for business and a crossover to the general public. I owned a treo 700w for 3 years. There were scant updates to the OS and it was not stable. My storm has not had any major stability issues and RIM has updated the OS already one time in the last month with one in the near future. I expect they will continue to improve the storm and learn from it. I look forward to the next product RIM introduces with the touch screen platform.

Abigfish

I agree, at least they're giving the device plenty of attention. In fact, I've never seen this level of assertiveness in dealing with any and all issues with a device.

Ultimately, that's the best kind of peace of mind a customer can have. They are really going all out to fix the issues that are present. The Storm, a few months from now will be a drastically improved device.

[Habious]

I owned a treo 700w for 3 years. There were scant updates to the OS and it was not stable. My storm has not had any major stability issues and RIM has updated the OS already one time in the last month with one in the near future. I expect they will continue to improve the storm and learn from it. I look forward to the next product RIM introduces with the touch screen platform.

Abigfish

Another good point. In the 2 years that I owned my Treo 700P, there was a grand total of ONE firmware update...and they totally screwed it up (they released it, then found out that it caused more problems than it fixed, pulled it back, had people downgrade back to the old firmware, and then re-released it 2 months later). And, I have to say that this ONE firmware update didn't fix all of the problems the device had at launch.

[olta777]

Once the storm is perfect (fixed with updates), we will see way more happy threads, i.e. "my storm can do this, what about yours?" Seriously, with how many updates (including leaked), we know that RIM is working real hard to fix what they screwed up, and that gives me security that I have a phone that is really supported. I love my storm....just like others said, it needs speed to fly.....I believe the software updates can also make it support the 16gb cards or 32gb. I am not sure though, because I am not a pro in this area. I have checked out many phones, but just the storms screen, none of them could come even close. My friends iphone looks faded compared how bright and crisp storm's screen is. I love it....and just patiently waiting for the updates....give us 4.7.0.99

[SenorBlues]

It occurs to me that the reason we haven't seen .87 leaked is because it fails to squash many of the bugs of .85. It also seems likely that even if some even higher versions are currently in beta to selected testers, those even higher versions have STILL failed to create a stable, bug-free version.

I think that's why we haven't seen any messages of hope and encouragement from the beta testers here. Although some have acknowledged that they do, indeed possess higher versions, I have yet to see anyone say there is light at the end of tunnel and a satisfying stable release will be here soon.

If I'm wrong - somebody please tell me so. Without breaking any NDA, just say that you know from first-hand experience that a consistently responsive and stable OS will be here very soon. Otherwise, I have to assume that RIM is just as frustrated as we are because as of today they still can't get their OS to behave and they still don't have a clue why its so skittish.

[JRSCCivic98]

Just FYI, an NDA prevents anything about anything depending on its wording. So, someone under an NDA realistically couldn't even fart in your general direction to signify anything about anything the NDA governs over.

[e34m5]

As a professional software developer what I see most lacking from these releases is QA. Fix one thing break another that use to work.

I'd rather wait a little longer and have something solid delivered. Nothing turns people off more that updates that don't work. Trust me, I know.

[bigman2]

As a professional software developer what I see most lacking from these releases is QA. Fix one thing break another that use to work.

I'd rather wait a little longer and have something solid delivered. Nothing turns people off more that updates that don't work. Trust me, I know.

Except that these are all unofficial releases. If they were given official status with some of these bugs, you would have an extremely valid point.

And just because some release hasn't been leaked yet doesn't mean much of anything. It's just as likely, maybe even more so, that there's been a bit of a crackdown on people who leak releases. We simply don't know enough to even speculate.

Also, how is it people seem to think that a software update can somehow improve the lens on a camera by .2MP? The Storm, for example, shipped with a 3.2MP lens, and it will always be a 3.2MP lens for as long as it shall live.

And can we get a permanent ban on all the Pre talk? Take it over to HoFo's Palm forums if they don't already have one for the Pre. No one here has actually used the phone unless I'm mistaken, and I don't think anyone outside of Palm has had a chance to use the device long term. People were quite impressed by the Storm early on, but we all know how things turned out come launch day. I still think it's a great device overall, with all kinds of potential, before someone takes the preceding comment as me changing my stance in some way. I'm quite sure RIM is keeping very close tabs on the Pre, just like they're keeping close tabs on what Microsoft has planned for WinMo7. If it might in any way pose even a minor threat to RIM's business, you can bet they're keeping an eye on it.

There really just is no pleasing you people. RIM is working hard on fixing the bugs in the Storm software, and you complain about how there are no new features. If they were adding new features, you'd be complaining about how they aren't fixing bugs. The developers can only do one at a time, and they are people too with families, friends, hobbies... Lives in general. So unless you're willing to put in 12-18 hours a day at your job, every day, seven days a week, just shut it. Don't expect other people to do things you yourself are unwilling to do. Be happy that the worst bug you have to deal with is the Verizon Screen of Death, which is pretty harmless for how annoying it is.

[wardo5757]

Except that these are all unofficial releases. If they were given official status with some of these bugs, you would have an extremely valid point.

And just because some release hasn't been leaked yet doesn't mean much of anything. It's just as likely, maybe even more so, that there's been a bit of a crackdown on people who leak releases. We simply don't know enough to even speculate.

Also, how is it people seem to think that a software update can somehow improve the lens on a camera by .2MP? The Storm, for example, shipped with a 3.2MP lens, and it will always be a 3.2MP lens for as long as it shall live.

And can we get a permanent ban on all the Pre talk? Take it over to HoFo's Palm forums if they don't already have one for the Pre. No one here has actually used the phone unless I'm mistaken, and I don't think anyone outside of Palm has had a chance to use the device long term. People were quite impressed by the Storm early on, but we all know how things turned out come launch day. I still think it's a great device overall, with all kinds of potential, before someone takes the preceding comment as me changing my stance in some way. I'm quite sure RIM is keeping very close tabs on the Pre, just like they're keeping close tabs on what Microsoft has planned for WinMo7. If it might in any way pose even a minor threat to RIM's business, you can bet they're keeping an eye on it.

There really just is no pleasing you people. RIM is working hard on fixing the bugs in the Storm software, and you complain about how there are no new features. If they were adding new features, you'd be complaining about how they aren't fixing bugs. The developers can only do one at a time, and they are people too with families, friends, hobbies... Lives in general. So unless you're willing to put in 12-18 hours a day at your job, every day, seven days a week, just shut it. Don't expect other people to do things you yourself are unwilling to do. Be happy that the worst bug you have to deal with is the Verizon Screen of Death, which is pretty harmless for how annoying it is.

Dude! You are the one that just needs to "shut up"! Just because you are a SF developer doesn't really mean a damn thing in this respect because you are not a business man with the bigger picture. The leaked OS's are being released because RIM knows that .75 was totally s h it and people were returning the phones simply because of that. If the powers that be at RIM did not allow these leaks I would have returned mine. .85 is c rap, but its leaps and bounds beyond .75, which is what mine came with. Fact is, we got sold sh it, and RIM is doing what they can do keep business and they are simply not doing in fast enough. And yes, you're right, if i buy something, I want it to work in a proper fashion, period! So go back to your desk and put your little head down and do your work, this is way past your pay grade.

[cray1000]

Also, how is it people seem to think that a software update can somehow improve the lens on a camera by .2MP? The Storm, for example, shipped with a 3.2MP lens, and it will always be a 3.2MP lens for as long as it shall live.

the lens has nothing to do with the megapixels. the CCD/CMOS does.

[cray1000]

Well, not to make this into even more of a Pre thread, but it looks like Palm is finally doing something with the BeOS IP they picked up years ago and just sat on.

For those unaware, a very brief history lesson... BeOS was created by Be Inc back during the dot com boom leading up to the 2000s. In a lot of ways it was an OS about 10 years ahead of its time. EVERYTHING about the OS was multi-threaded, and so it had amazing responsiveness and would have kicked some serious arse on today's multi-core processors. Ultimately Be Inc went out of business after Apple decided to buy out Steve Jobs' company NeXTStep and use it's UnixWare product as the foundation for Mac OS X. Palm bought up all the IP at the bankruptcy auction, and proceeded to pretty much just sit on it. So it looks like they've dusted it off and are putting some of it to use now.

sorry, your wrong again, BeOS is the IP of ACCESS not palm.

And they didnt sit on it, it was used for Palm Cobalt. And Access has had BeOS for longer than palm has been working on webOS.

[highirish]

There really just is no pleasing you people. RIM is working hard on fixing the bugs in the Storm software, and you complain about how there are no new features. If they were adding new features, you'd be complaining about how they aren't fixing bugs. The developers can only do one at a time, and they are people too with families, friends, hobbies... Lives in general. So unless you're willing to put in 12-18 hours a day at your job, every day, seven days a week, just shut it. Don't expect other people to do things you yourself are unwilling to do. Be happy that the worst bug you have to deal with is the Verizon Screen of Death, which is pretty harmless for how annoying it is.

WOW! If I did my job as bad as these guys did theirs, I WOULD NOT have a job. If the OS is this buggy then don't release the OS. Just because RIM wanted or needed a piece of the 2008 holiday sales pie doesn't mean I can't be completely aghast at the quality of how my new smart phone works. And you or anyone else will NEVER be able to convince me that a battery pull is a pretty harmless annoyance.

[bigman2]

Dude! You are the one that just needs to "shut up"!

I said "shut it".

Just because you are a SF developer doesn't really mean a damn thing in this respect because you are not a business man with the bigger picture.

I'm NOT a developer. I actually am a pretty lousy programmer, but I still know enough about programming to have a pretty good idea what is going on.

What I AM however, is the holder of two business degrees, one of which is in marketing. In particular, I'm very good with things like promotional strategy and brand management. Two things that come into play more than you might think here.

The leaked OS's are being released because RIM knows that .75 was totally s h it and people were returning the phones simply because of that. If the powers that be at RIM did not allow these leaks I would have returned mine.

RIM isn't the one leaking these updates. And sorry to poke a hole in your tin foil hat bubble there, but there's no conspiracy going on here where RIM is secretly leaking these updates, or allowing them to happen. The leaks are coming from other sources, and RIM would probably just as soon they not happen at all.

.85 is c rap, but its leaps and bounds beyond .75, which is what mine came with.

I'll agree it's considerably better than .75, but it's far from crap. Which is more than I can say for your post thus far.

Fact is, we got sold sh it, and RIM is doing what they can do keep business and they are simply not doing in fast enough. And yes, you're right, if i buy something, I want it to work in a proper fashion, period! So go back to your desk and put your little head down and do your work, this is way past your pay grade.

Have you even graduated from high school yet? This is the sort of crap I might expect from someone who's 15-16 years old and thinks they know everything. Maybe you think reading Dilbert every day makes you some kind of expert on the business world. In the REAL world, there rarely are these giant conspiracies going on like you propose. There simply would have to be too many people involved for it to work. If just ONE of them gave a government oversight agency a whiff of what was going on, there would be some serious h3ll to pay.

In the REAL world, RIM doesn't sell phones direct to consumers. Verizon and the other carriers order the phone in bulk, and then resell them. If Verizon orders 1,000 phones, RIM gets paid for those 1,000 phones, even if Verizon only sells 10 of them.

Part of being an early adopter for a device as sophisticated as the Storm means living through some teething problems. I understood this going in, but obviously you didn't. And if you weren't such a **** I might even be a bit empathetic to your position. So your detention punishment is to write, "Nobody likes a little ****" on the chalkboard 100 times. With any luck, the message will sink in.

Once you've graduated from high school, gone to college, had a little time to mature mentally... We'll talk. Until then, be sure to study hard and do your homework.

[kuroshio]

WOW! If I did my job as bad as these guys did theirs, I WOULD NOT have a job. If the OS is this buggy then don't release the OS. Just because RIM wanted or needed a piece of the 2008 holiday sales pie doesn't mean I can't be completely aghast at the quality of how my new smart phone works. And you or anyone else will NEVER be able to convince me that a battery pull is a pretty harmless annoyance.

Err... your computer is still running Windows 3.1.1 eh? I think they just got the final bugs out of that version last year

So which OS are you running that is less buggy than any version of Windows released in nearly the last 2 decades? I ask because I loaded .85 last Sat and pulled the battery yesterday for the first time since early Dec (phone lagged, app switcher wouldn't open, would not power off).

[Roboto]

This whole "potential" argument seems moot in the long term. I don't buy a cheeseburger that tastes bad because I think it will taste better with time, in fact, it has no more potential later than now as it will be sh1t (in the literal sense of the word) later compared to all the fresh, hot-off-the-grill burgers.

Food analogies are great. On the Storm's side, though, you can use popcorn.

It starts off as a hard, unedible piece of matter to begin with. Nobody wants to tear open a bag of Pop Secret and munch on lard and kernals to begin with. It is bought because of the prospect that with some heat and a little time, it will burst into a flavorful wonderful package that you can enjoy over and over again with friends at different locations, however; letting it sit in the microwave too long will make it burn into the smelliest, foulest substance imaginable. At this point, nobody can stomach the thought of eating it, let alone keeping it around, so they throw it out and seek an alternative snack to consume.

So please, RIM, don't let the Storm be burnt popcorn!

[e34m5]

A few more observations -

- Whoever decided to put cameras and MP3 players in cell phones should be shot.

- RIM needs to find the source of the leaks and hold them responsible for violating NDA's.

- The OS that came with the Storm was already buggy. If indeed this is the same OS as the Bold then it should not be like this. The only real difference between the two are the UI's. A button press is a button press regardless of the UI.

- Your comment that these people at RIM have families and hobbies, etc is totally irrelevant. We are talking about the work they produce.

- The issue is that our society has become tolerant of mediocraty. It's the Microsoft syndrome. We will make whatever we want and you consumers will like it. We will release it with thousands of bugs and let you tell us where they are. We will then, if we feel like it, fix them.

- Why is it that if your car has the slightest problem you go bananas and become intolerant. However, you cut RIM and MS lots of slack.

- All those at RIM in charge of the OS should be held accountable for this fiasco.

- Why do you think Space launches and airplane releases are delayed. Because the systems have to be perfect. Would you like it if Boeing had an OS in a system that didn't quite work. Of course you are retort is that a cell phone is not an airplane. Agreed. However, I am simply making a point here.

[bigman2]

This whole "potential" argument seems moot in the long term. I don't buy a cheeseburger that tastes bad because I think it will taste better with time, in fact, it has no more potential later than now as it will be sh1t (in the literal sense of the word) later compared to all the fresh, hot-off-the-grill burgers.

Invalid analogy for a couple of reasons. Primarily, you buy/make a cheeseburger with the intention of eating it immediately, and this isn't true for the Storm. You don't consume the Storm (in any economic or dietary sense) in the same way you do a cheeseburger. The Storm is more like a book or CD, something you plan to keep for a long time and use repeatedly. If you want a food analogy, it's closer to a bit of hard candy that takes a while to wear down.

[chasvs]

So is there ANY discussion about a potential Major OS or UI Overhaul here or is this just going to be a pissing contest about who knows more than the other non-programmer. Moderator? Moderator?

[bigman2]

- Whoever decided to put cameras and MP3 players in cell phones should be shot.

Largely agreed. I still remember all the fun people had when the first cameras were added to cell phones, and people were using them to take candid photos of women on the toilet or in a dressing room, etc.

- RIM needs to find the source of the leaks and hold them responsible for violating NDA's.

It's not anyone from RIM leaking these things most likely. It's someone from Verizon or one of RIM's partner companies.

- The OS that came with the Storm was already buggy. If indeed this is the same OS as the Bold then it should not be like this. The only real difference between the two are the UI's. A button press is a button press regardless of the UI.

From what I've gathered, the Bold and Storm OS's are both offshoots of 4.5. The two might share a number of similarities, but they would have had to be built in parallel given the amount of lead time needed to get that initial launch build created.

And all button presses are not created equal. There's a lot of psychology that goes into UI design, and like I put into a different thread... With a trackball based device, your attention is split between the trackball and the screen. It takes a split second for your brain to register that you moved the trackball and should now focus on the screen to watch for the expected changes. Usually by the time this happens, the action has taken place, and you do not perceive any delay, even though there was one. With the Storm, you never take your eyes off the screen, and your focus is entirely on the screen, so even that split second delay, which may even be less than on the trackball device, is much more noticeable and so your perception is that it is slower.

- Your comment that these people at RIM have families and hobbies, etc is totally irrelevant. We are talking about the work they produce.

My point is that there are only X number of developers to work on this, and they only work about 40 hours a week. There is a limit to how much even the best programmer in the world could get done in that amount of time. The code is being written by human beings, not machines that work 24/7. You can bet that they want to make the Storm a success even more than anyone here wants it to be one. They have probably 6-12 months more time invested into this device than any of us, so you can bet they are working very hard to improve things. There are just some realities we have to face on a part of these people being human. Come 5PM, or whatever quitting time is, they want to go home to see their friends and family, just like you. They need a break from their work sometimes, just like you.

The whole point of this is to try and help people understand that it will take a little time. It's easy to b!tch and moan when the developers are just kind of an amorphous idea in your head... But when you start attributing human qualities to them, it's much more difficult.

- The issue is that our society has become tolerant of mediocraty. It's the Microsoft syndrome. We will make whatever we want and you consumers will like it. We will release it with thousands of bugs and let you tell us where they are. We will then, if we feel like it, fix them.

I don't think Microsoft can be given all the credit on this one, but they've certainly milked it for everything its worth.

- Why is it that if your car has the slightest problem you go bananas and become intolerant. However, you cut RIM and MS lots of slack.

Can only speak for myself, but I don't go completely "bananas" if my car breaks down. But if I did, it would probably be because I was on my way to work or somewhere important, and now I have this to deal with before I can get to whatever I was going to do. And people who know me, know that I'm very hard on Microsoft, but I try and limit myself to things that are actually Microsoft's fault. I don't blame Microsoft so much for not being able to create an operating system that doesn't fall down when it's run on shoddy hardware. I do say they could do a better job of making Windows handle that sort of thing more gracefully, like Linux, but if the hardware is sending some completely incomprehensible signal because of some manufacturing defect, what exactly is it you expect them to be able to do about it?

- All those at RIM in charge of the OS should be held accountable for this fiasco.

What fiasco is that exactly? Sales on the Storm have been better than expected, and returns lower than average. We don't have exact figures, but those are two VERY positive things. .65 and .7x were pretty stable, just sluggish. All other releases have been unofficial, so it's hard to blame anyone for that.

- Why do you think Space launches and airplane releases are delayed. Because the systems have to be perfect. Would you like it if Boeing had an OS in a system that didn't quite work. Of course you are retort is that a cell phone is not an airplane. Agreed. However, I am simply making a point here.

And when human lives depend on the Storm working flawlessly, I'll accept that argument. Of course with airplanes, a lot of those systems are independent of one another. There's not one central system that controls everything. You'll have one system for the auto-pilot, another might control the landing gear, the engines would probably be another system. It's a large collection of isolated units, so if one should fail, it doesn't affect the others.

But I'm always reminded of the one good line out of the whole stinkfest that was the movie Armageddon. They're on the space shuttle about to launch, and one guy says something to the effect of, "You realize we're sitting in a ship with millions of tiny little parts, all built by the lowest bidder?"