View Poll Results: Who do you think should take the blame?

Voters
120. You may not vote on this poll
  • RIM.

    39 32.50%
  • Verizon.

    19 15.83%
  • Both.

    60 50.00%
  • RIM and I'm leaving them forever.

    2 1.67%
05-14-09 06:39 PM
98 1234
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  1. mychair's Avatar
    Oh dude, my sympathies for sure! I had to work CSR for a company (non-wireless based) here and maaaaaan..what a headache. Couldn't imagine it on a scale as large as VZW's operation. It's just sad to see that their particular network seems to be more of a problem than the OS releases themselves
    Everyone complains that they can't believe that VZW didn't release an update yet and that their testing is over the top, but if you think of the cost associated with changing from a set of known issues in .75 to a set of unknown ones in a new release then it makes sense to wait until the OS update being offered is perfect.

    That being said, how can RIM not know their device well enough to write an OS that works better than what they have released?! Can you imagine the friction between VZW and RIM in meetings regarding this issue? If I was VZW, I would be saying "Seriously?! Seriously?! You can't do any better than this!?!!?"
    Last edited by mychair; 05-12-09 at 04:26 PM. Reason: misspelling
    05-12-09 04:25 PM
  2. Crucial_Xtreme's Avatar
    In reference to CB's home page, most are very upset with VZW. Who we should be upset with is RIM. After all they are the ones who made the device and horrible OS. VZW doesn't write the software, they only approve it. I'm glad they have high expectation for the OS and just don't accept anything and everything RIM churns out. I mean really, who wants .141 to be official anyway?? I sure don't. The problem lies with RIM and their lack of knowledge when writing and developing software. I hope to god someone in Waterloo has lost their job over this. I realize many are upset but RIM is getting away with murder while VZW takes all the heat. Quit calling VZW and complaining, call RIM and let them have it!!! I've been a RIM fan and user for over 8 years now. At the time, they were the only company who had a good email and messaging system available for mobile devices. Now there are MANY players out there who do the same thing and in many cases even better. If you ask me, RIM got fat and happy and forgot about innovation and more importantly how to write software. Perhaps they would be better off going back to making pagers.

    Also, please feel free to comment on why you voted the way you did.
    I can tell you this--> RIM did NOT make Verizon launch the Storm with the horrible software it had installed on it. Nope not at all. And Verizon could have done just like AT&T did with the Bold, and held it back until the software was ready for public use. But did they? No, they were only concerned with making the $$$. So it seems to me, that your anger is directed at the wrong people.
    Now, back when .8something was the latest leak, everyone wished and wished for a build like .141. I guess you and others forget quite easily how bad the .8's were..... Or then again, you could still be using .75.
    Again, RIM doesn't make the carriers launch the product. And in this particular case, didn't want them to. But Verizon could care less about it's customers it only wanted your money. So I would start with the company that sold you what you despise so much.
    05-12-09 04:29 PM
  3. patches152's Avatar
    Lockups happened to me even when I didn't add any 3rd party apps(had device replace about 4 times already).

    As far as lagging, well I barely had this problem on my ATT 8300, or my Verizon 8330, and I don't have it on my Bold or 8700C.
    user error
    05-12-09 04:31 PM
  4. unseenme's Avatar
    I can tell you this--> RIM did NOT make Verizon launch the Storm with the horrible software it had installed on it. Nope not at all. And Verizon could have done just like AT&T did with the Bold, and held it back until the software was ready for public use. But did they? No, they were only concerned with making the $$$. So it seems to me, that your anger is directed at the wrong people.
    Now, back when .8something was the latest leak, everyone wished and wished for a build like .141. I guess you and others forget quite easily how bad the .8's were..... Or then again, you could still be using .75.
    Again, RIM doesn't make the carriers launch the product. And in this particular case, didn't want them to. But Verizon could care less about it's customers it only wanted your money. So I would start with the company that sold you what you despise so much.
    *DING DING DING*

    We have a winner!

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-12-09 04:41 PM
  5. Oilbrnr's Avatar
    Yeah..it's rim's fault that's why most of the whiners are the ones on Verizon who refuse to update
    What are the BES OTA upgrade only users to do?

    Oh that's right, we're just supposed to sit and hope for the Messiah OS to be released?
    05-12-09 04:52 PM
  6. patches152's Avatar
    What are the BES OTA upgrade only users to do?

    Oh that's right, we're just supposed to sit and hope for the Messiah OS to be released?
    ha ha ha, suckers!

    jk, the correct response is get a job testing and developing for RIM or VZW so they HAVE to let you use the most current software
    05-12-09 05:02 PM
  7. kinggeoff's Avatar
    Everyone complains that they can't believe that VZW didn't release an update yet and that their testing is over the top, but if you think of the cost associated with changing from a set of known issues in .75 to a set of unknown ones in a new release then it makes sense to wait until the OS update being offered is perfect.

    That being said, how can RIM not know their device well enough to write an OS that works better than what they have released?! Can you imagine the friction between VZW and RIM in meetings regarding this issue? If I was VZW, I would be saying "Seriously?! Seriously?! You can't do any better than this!?!!?"
    RIM wrote software that works FINE on almost EVERY other carrier...funny, that.

    See below as to why this is not an issue with RIM, but VZW

    I can tell you this--> RIM did NOT make Verizon launch the Storm with the horrible software it had installed on it. Nope not at all. And Verizon could have done just like AT&T did with the Bold, and held it back until the software was ready for public use. But did they? No, they were only concerned with making the $$$. So it seems to me, that your anger is directed at the wrong people.
    Now, back when .8something was the latest leak, everyone wished and wished for a build like .141. I guess you and others forget quite easily how bad the .8's were..... Or then again, you could still be using .75.
    Again, RIM doesn't make the carriers launch the product. And in this particular case, didn't want them to. But Verizon could care less about it's customers it only wanted your money. So I would start with the company that sold you what you despise so much.
    BAM. Right there. Thanks CX. This is what I have been thinking all along. I wish people would stop blaming the manufacturer.

    What are the BES OTA upgrade only users to do?

    Oh that's right, we're just supposed to sit and hope for the Messiah OS to be released?
    No that's what verizon is waiting for

    You're supposed to suffer at the hands of your carrier's arrogant executive panels...they're the ones that greenlit rushing the product out for Christmas
    05-12-09 05:04 PM
  8. briankeith513's Avatar
    I can tell you this--> RIM did NOT make Verizon launch the Storm with the horrible software it had installed on it. Nope not at all. And Verizon could have done just like AT&T did with the Bold, and held it back until the software was ready for public use. But did they? No, they were only concerned with making the $$$. So it seems to me, that your anger is directed at the wrong people.
    Now, back when .8something was the latest leak, everyone wished and wished for a build like .141. I guess you and others forget quite easily how bad the .8's were..... Or then again, you could still be using .75.
    Again, RIM doesn't make the carriers launch the product. And in this particular case, didn't want them to. But Verizon could care less about it's customers it only wanted your money. So I would start with the company that sold you what you despise so much.
    But, Crucial, the question we have is, what is the current problem? We know Verizon should not have released it when it did, but let's be real, that was over 6 months ago, and RIM has yet to release a build that is stable enough. The leaked betas have confirmed this. So, it would seem that we should be upset with RIM at this point because it is up to them, not Verizon, to create a good and stable build. Again, yes, Verizon for not waiting, but, RIM for not making something stable, now 6 months later.
    Last edited by briankeith513; 05-12-09 at 05:08 PM.
    05-12-09 05:05 PM
  9. patches152's Avatar
    RIM wrote software that works FINE on almost EVERY other carrier...funny, that.
    just because you don't notice the problems doesn't mean that the issues aren't there, remember my example about mms and tethering? some carriers don't have the services available to notice the issues. so partly a carrier concern, but RIM still writes the code.


    BAM. Right there. Thanks CX. This is what I have been thinking all along. I wish people would stop blaming the manufacturer.
    manufacture/developer...they manufactured a product, but thats not the end of their responsibility



    No that's what verizon is waiting for

    You're supposed to suffer at the hands of your carrier's arrogant executive panels...they're the ones that greenlit rushing the product out for Christmas
    or convince your I.T. admin to approve unsupported software, its a BES admin setting...each one can create their own rules
    05-12-09 05:11 PM
  10. cereal killer's Avatar
    Blame RIM or VZW all you want but the fact remains buggy software is the new reality. You don't like it? Too bad. RIM or VZW do not work for you and they have a business to run not coddle a bunch of adolescent's who are suffering from a buggy phone.

    Maybe if you all grew up you'd realize they are in the business of profit and taking care of their shareholders not making sure your happy and content. Your early adopters act like it for once.

    Be happy they even made you a touchscreen. Doesn't matter if it works properly or not. They made it and you should just be grateful you even have one.

    Complain, whine and cry all you want but remember they sleep great at night. They are prospering. Getting rich off of the masses who walk around in a cloud of denial because they desperately want to have the "latest and greatest"

    Doesn't it feel great to be taken advantage of by giant corporations? Its an awesome feeling isn't it? Theres nothing better : )

    I would never think of not buying poor product to send a message. That would be mean spirited. I mean if enough people stood up and did that it would hurt these corporations financially and the people that run them.

    I for one would never think of doing that. They have huge mortgages to pay, shareholders to take of and extravagant vacations awaiting them. I wouldn't dare think of ruining that. Its unfair. Why should they have to suffer when I can simply just shut up and take it?

    I'd rather give them my money and be happy they are even making product. I would even go so far as saying they are doing me a favor.

    Anyway enough ranting, RIM made the release by the skin of their teeth says Jim Balsillie. How sweet was that? That's just awesome.

    Hang tight you will all get an official soon enough. Its only been 6 + months. What's the rush anyway? You have a phone.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-12-09 05:13 PM
  11. patches152's Avatar
    But, Crucial, the question we have is, what is the current problem? We know Verizon should not have released it when it did, but let's be real, that was over 6 months ago, and RIM has yet to release a build that is stable enough. The leaked betas have confirmed this. So, it would seem that we should be upset with RIM at this point because it is up to them, not Verizon, to create a good and stable build. Again, yes, Verizon for not waiting, but, RIM for not making something stable, now 6 months later.
    +1,
    blame gets us nowhere. constructive solutions and suggestions are what we deal in!

    also, CX, i've been curious: how long is the turn around time from wrapping up development on a particular build until you hear back with results of testing and implement fixes based on that feedback? i understand that testing can take different lengths, etc.
    05-12-09 05:15 PM
  12. kinggeoff's Avatar
    just because you don't notice the problems doesn't mean that the issues aren't there, remember my example about mms and tethering? some carriers don't have the services available to notice the issues. so partly a carrier concern, but RIM still writes the code.


    manufacture/developer...they manufactured a product, but thats not the end of their responsibility





    or convince your I.T. admin to approve unsupported software, its a BES admin setting...each one can create their own rules

    alll valid points
    Last edited by kinggeoff; 05-12-09 at 05:36 PM.
    05-12-09 05:28 PM
  13. patches152's Avatar
    i don't want to blame the companies, i want to help fix the problem. what can we do? how can we help get this phone to where we want it to be? where do we provide the feedback?
    05-12-09 05:31 PM
  14. fyrman49's Avatar
    you smack both the hands that had them in the pie!
    05-12-09 05:50 PM
  15. Yesterdays Shoveler's Avatar
    I can tell you this--> RIM did NOT make Verizon launch the Storm with the horrible software it had installed on it. Nope not at all. And Verizon could have done just like AT&T did with the Bold, and held it back until the software was ready for public use. But did they? No, they were only concerned with making the $$$. So it seems to me, that your anger is directed at the wrong people.
    Now, back when .8something was the latest leak, everyone wished and wished for a build like .141. I guess you and others forget quite easily how bad the .8's were..... Or then again, you could still be using .75.
    Again, RIM doesn't make the carriers launch the product. And in this particular case, didn't want them to. But Verizon could care less about it's customers it only wanted your money. So I would start with the company that sold you what you despise so much.
    So when RIM was telling VZW not to release the phone, were they also telling VZW that it would take them at least five months to get a stable OS developed for it? Was RIM telling VZW that development on 4.7 would likely cease before a stable 4.7 OS was ready for public release?
    05-12-09 06:33 PM
  16. SilverLight98's Avatar
    its Verizons fault, there the ones who rushed it out, the ones responsible for the lack of an OS upgrade in SIX months, the reason for why it has so many problems. I used to think it was all RIM but then I discovered that it was really Verizon. Had the storm been released now or at WES, it would have been a much better phone. I think it still has the ability to become a better phone, but thats only if Verizon acts and considering their track record so far, the Storm 3 will be out before we get an update. Fortunately my 2 year contract will be up and I'll be able to get another phone
    05-12-09 08:00 PM
  17. patches152's Avatar
    its Verizons fault, there the ones who rushed it out, the ones responsible for the lack of an OS upgrade in SIX months, the reason for why it has so many problems. I used to think it was all RIM but then I discovered that it was really Verizon. Had the storm been released now or at WES, it would have been a much better phone. I think it still has the ability to become a better phone, but thats only if Verizon acts and considering their track record so far, the Storm 3 will be out before we get an update. Fortunately my 2 year contract will be up and I'll be able to get another phone

    which OS would you suggest they release? everything has failed except .75, they failed .65 also, but the CEO overrode the decision and ordered it released.

    i agree it was rushed out prematurely, but after that they've done the right thing not passing any of the software we've seen leak here after .75.
    05-12-09 08:03 PM
  18. briankeith513's Avatar
    its Verizons fault, there the ones who rushed it out, the ones responsible for the lack of an OS upgrade in SIX months, the reason for why it has so many problems. I used to think it was all RIM but then I discovered that it was really Verizon. Had the storm been released now or at WES, it would have been a much better phone. I think it still has the ability to become a better phone, but thats only if Verizon acts and considering their track record so far, the Storm 3 will be out before we get an update. Fortunately my 2 year contract will be up and I'll be able to get another phone
    Verizon is the one responsible for the lack of an OS upgrade, huh? Who makes the os? Does verizon make it? Surely, you've used the many leaked beta os's, do you think Verizon should have approved that garbage? Yes, they are better than .75, but not nearly where it should be. Is that Verizon's fault? Or is your reasoning that Verizon should release the betas from RIM, that even RIM knows is full of bugs? Do you suggest that Verizon make their own os for the Storm?
    05-12-09 08:45 PM
  19. Crucial_Xtreme's Avatar
    But, Crucial, the question we have is, what is the current problem? We know Verizon should not have released it when it did, but let's be real, that was over 6 months ago, and RIM has yet to release a build that is stable enough. The leaked betas have confirmed this. So, it would seem that we should be upset with RIM at this point because it is up to them, not Verizon, to create a good and stable build. Again, yes, Verizon for not waiting, but, RIM for not making something stable, now 6 months later.
    Ok, stable? What's your definition of stable? .75 is stable, and theres over a million BES users that will concede just that. Now I remember your problems of reboots, etc. To my knowledge, reboots isn't a big problem with 141. Now I'm not saying 141 is a perfect build, but it's better than what it shipped with. Conversely, other carriers have released builds. Now they aren't perfect, but they're trying to provide their customers with the best possible software they can. They're not worried about pushing out multiple updates and how it affects their bottom line like Verizon is. Furthermore, there are much better builds than what Verizon is testing now. However, that's not the avenue Verizon has chosen.
    Now I've seen a ton of Storm users complain when they had .75 and .8whatever. Beg for a build like .122 or .141, and say it should have at least shipped with one of these two builds. So say it did. That's where you'd be right now. It's better than .75. But your carrier has chosen to wait on the perfect build, versus putting out incremental updates that effect their bottom line. But now that everyone has .122 or 141, it's not good enough, when months ago, it was all anyone ever wanted.... Nothings ever good enough.
    What should have happened, is the carrier you all love to brag about should have put their customers before their wallets and held the device back a bit. Plain and simple. They should also at least give their customers the best possible software and quit worrying about profits. They should also take a different approach to the QA testing, and also accept one of the higher revisions.
    Also until any of you start writing code for the Storm and putting out great revisions, give the people who do a break. If it was so easy, it would have been done months ago. But it seems to me like nothing will ever be good enough for Storm users. And my example of what people were saying back in the early builds and what they're saying now, is proof of just that.

    +1,
    blame gets us nowhere. constructive solutions and suggestions are what we deal in!

    also, CX, i've been curious: how long is the turn around time from wrapping up development on a particular build until you hear back with results of testing and implement fixes based on that feedback? i understand that testing can take different lengths, etc.
    It depends on what kind of testing is taking place and by who. Broadly I will say anywhere from 5-12 days between revisions.

    So when RIM was telling VZW not to release the phone, were they also telling VZW that it would take them at least five months to get a stable OS developed for it? Was RIM telling VZW that development on 4.7 would likely cease before a stable 4.7 OS was ready for public release?
    It doesn't matter what RIM was telling Verizon at launch. Verizon didn't care and it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Again, writing code is not a simple process. No, there are very stable 4.7 builds. But considering that all new devices are going to 5.0, 4.7 was a waste of time and money. Theres no point in continuing Dev on something that's going to be obsolete in a few months...
    05-12-09 08:48 PM
  20. briankeith513's Avatar
    Ok, stable? What's your definition of stable? .75 is stable, and theres over a million BES users that will concede just that. Now I remember your problems of reboots, etc. To my knowledge, reboots isn't a big problem with 141. Now I'm not saying 141 is a perfect build, but it's better than what it shipped with. Conversely, other carriers have released builds. Now they aren't perfect, but they're trying to provide their customers with the best possible software they can. They're not worried about pushing out multiple updates and how it affects their bottom line like Verizon is. Furthermore, there are much better builds than what Verizon is testing now. However, that's not the avenue Verizon has chosen.
    Now I've seen a ton of Storm users complain when they had .75 and .8whatever. Beg for a build like .122 or .141, and say it should have at least shipped with one of these two builds. So say it did. That's where you'd be right now. It's better than .75. But your carrier has chosen to wait on the perfect build, versus putting out incremental updates that effect their bottom line. But now that everyone has .122 or 141, it's not good enough, when months ago, it was all anyone ever wanted.... Nothings ever good enough.
    What should have happened, is the carrier you all love to brag about should have put their customers before their wallets and held the device back a bit. Plain and simple. They should also at least give their customers the best possible software and quit worrying about profits. They should also take a different approach to the QA testing, and also accept one of the higher revisions.
    Also until any of you start writing code for the Storm and putting out great revisions, give the people who do a break. If it was so easy, it would have been done months ago. But it seems to me like nothing will ever be good enough for Storm users. And my example of what people were saying back in the early builds and what they're saying now, is proof of just that.


    It depends on what kind of testing is taking place and by who. Broadly I will say anywhere from 5-12 days between revisions.


    It doesn't matter what RIM was telling Verizon at launch. Verizon didn't care and it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Again, writing code is not a simple process. No, there are very stable 4.7 builds. But considering that all new devices are going to 5.0, 4.7 was a waste of time and money. Theres no point in continuing Dev on something that's going to be obsolete in a few months...
    First, to say .75 is stable, is to ignore every forum, not just crackberry, and every reviewer from every website, who disagrees. And my definition of stable? I mean an os that doesn't cause random reboots at any given time, an os that does lockup randomly, I mean an os that doesn't move as slow as molasses, etc etc. Every Storm that has been returned. I won't even try to argue, because obviously, .75 is not ok. You are right, .141 is the best yet, and Verizon could take the approach and release various buggy os's that RIM comes up with, that just happens to be better than the previous build. Unfortunately, I feel that that would just make people pissed off, that another build was released, with more, and/or the same problems, and it appears that VZW feels the same way.

    We know that VZW should have delayed the Storm's release until the phone was ready, but looking at how long it has taken for these betas to improve, how long would that have been? 5- 6 months later, and .141 is much better than .75, but it's not good enough. It still lags, a week or 2 after installing it, still locks up whenever it wants to, and other issues. And your suggestion seems to be that VZW, accepts another buggy os from RIM, and release it because it is better than the previous build. Some customers will be happy with this, and others will be furious, so that's a hard one.

    Crucial, as you say "nothing will ever be good enough for Storm users"? Crucial, I have the 8300, 8330, 8700c, 9530, and the 9000, and the Storm, is clearly, much buggier than the rest of them, by far, and I know you know this. Every blog will confirm this, every review website. Shoot, the amount of Storm returns and exchanges confirm this. So, do Storm users complain? yes they do, because there are problems with the phone that are very serious.

    Yes, again, I freely admit that Verizon should not have released the Storm when they did, but looking at the fact that, 6 months later, many major bugs still exists, it makes me wonder when they'd be able to release it. Again, yes, Verizon could release later builds that still contain major bugs, and yes some customers would accept that, but many others will still be upset, because this is not what we'd expect in phone quality, especially from a manufacturer like RIM. I'm sure that making a good build is very difficult, but it doesn't change the fact that, the os comes from RIM, not Verizon, it's up to RIM to make the os without these major bugs, then Verizon to do further testing, approve it, and release it.

    What I do not see from you, is admitting that RIM should have provided a better os by now. They both have a role in this mess. Verizon for releasing it too soon, and RIM, for having yet to provide an os free of major bugs, and an os that doesn't lag and cause lockups. I'm sure any Storm user that has an 8900, 9000, or 8300 series, will tell you that they don't have the same problems with their other blackberries as they do with the Storm.
    Last edited by briankeith513; 05-12-09 at 09:24 PM.
    05-12-09 09:16 PM
  21. briankeith513's Avatar
    .

    i agree it was rushed out prematurely, but after that they've done the right thing not passing any of the software we've seen leak here after .75.
    This is one of the points that Crucial and I disagree with. He suggests that Verizon pass one or a few of the buggy os's that we've seen here because it's better than .75. That's a part of the debate. Do you wait for a build without bugs, not knowing when that's going to happen? (especially considering how long it's been thus far), or do you release one that's better than the previous ones, but still buggy, and just hope your customer's will be happy with the improvements, and not notice or care about the same bugs, or newer bugs that are introduced?
    05-12-09 09:32 PM
  22. Yesterdays Shoveler's Avatar
    It doesn't matter what RIM was telling Verizon at launch. Verizon didn't care and it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Again, writing code is not a simple process. No, there are very stable 4.7 builds. But considering that all new devices are going to 5.0, 4.7 was a waste of time and money. Theres no point in continuing Dev on something that's going to be obsolete in a few months...
    I'm not doubting you or discounting what you've said, but it's crazy to me to think that RIM has that little control over which of their products go to market and when.

    This is one of the points that Crucial and I disagree with. He suggests that Verizon pass one or a few of the buggy os's that we've seen here because it's better than .75. That's a part of the debate. Do you wait for a build without bugs, not knowing when that's going to happen? (especially considering how long it's been thus far), or do you release one that's better than the previous ones, but still buggy, and just hope your customer's will be happy with the improvements, and not notice or care about the same bugs, or newer bugs that are introduced?
    I'm with you there, but it's easier for me to say that since I'm able to install the leaks. If I was stuck on .75, I might very well be on the other side of the fence looking for the incremental official updates.
    05-12-09 09:46 PM
  23. patches152's Avatar
    it doesn't matter what we think, VZW testing put their foot down and basically said that you've already gone over our head once on this device, it makes 'em look bad!
    05-12-09 09:56 PM
  24. Oilersboy's Avatar
    I don't vote anything because I don't blame RIM and verizon at all because both did their best to make people happy with the storm. the real problem is storm users took the risk to download leaked OS or download other carrier like bell or telus, that was the cause of a big mess for all verizon storm users.
    05-12-09 10:01 PM
  25. briankeith513's Avatar
    it doesn't matter what we think, VZW testing put their foot down and basically said that you've already gone over our head once on this device, it makes 'em look bad!
    Ok, what do you mean here?
    05-12-09 10:08 PM
98 1234
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