02-24-09 10:56 AM
82 1234
tools
  1. YourMobileGuru's Avatar
    hm. this issue where this thread started is a questionable one and i'd love to hear an answer. it is weird, indeed, how RIM is "having problems" building a new operating system.
    No things are moving along nicely (maybe not as nicely as some would like) for a new OS version. No offense to the OP, but I think his intent was to stur things up, or at least vent frustration.
    01-20-09 04:01 AM
  2. SidIrish's Avatar
    Maybe an idea is for those people that seem to be having software problems is to get together on a forum and all preform the exact same actions over time. IE 1) Do a JL Wipe 2) Install X version of software 3) Install X 3rd Party Ap.

    By listing the place and build date, and not reinstalling any of their saved software or contacts, a consensus might be reached to actually show if X phone is a problem, or if X software build is a problem, or if X 3rd party app is a problem.

    Unfortunally I don't have time to play. And ummm my phone is working just right.

    SidIrish.

    But I would love to see the results if a group of people would try this.
    01-20-09 04:53 PM
  3. jamdmyers's Avatar
    Let's take a obvious point and eliminate it, 3rd party apps.
    So now we are left with a Rim released device and software OS.

    There could be mfg issues, especially if they use multi vendors.
    There can be component differences (spec and tolerance) or process
    issues such as solder flow over a blackplane. These types of mfg issues
    could 'partially' explain some differences between two phones and are not
    uncommon.

    On the firmware side there can be alot more going on. It would not be
    unlikely after the final hardware release to vendors that a design
    issue is found, at this point we turn to the software people to bail us out
    because it will cost too much to go through a HW change at this point,
    this would require software circumventions for a hardware problem, which
    since we are now flowing a new path could cause OS issues and require
    testing.

    Same along these lines once some issues were found the API between
    say the media player and SD card (just a example but the device has
    many of these) has a deficiency, this would require a new API defined
    if we want to really solve the problem. New APIs are very hard to integrate.
    (could be part of the Database restore ideas some others had,) if the
    DB manager changes maybe it doesn't cover some entrie strings (ie you
    put your contact info in one way I another, the compression can be different.)

    I certainly agree third party apps can cause issues.. but as long as RIM
    defines the SDK (software development kit) and the 3rd party coders
    follow it (and test thier code as opposed to rush to release and 'look at me'
    mode.. we'll be alot better off.

    ok my 2cents
    01-20-09 06:35 PM
  4. YourMobileGuru's Avatar

    I certainly agree third party apps can cause issues.. but as long as RIM
    defines the SDK (software development kit) and the 3rd party coders
    follow it (and test thier code as opposed to rush to release and 'look at me'
    mode.. we'll be alot better off.
    You do understand that not all apps are designed specifically for the Storm right?

    Most of them are older apps which were updated and even with newer ones, unless they are going to be included in the AppStore they do not necessarily have to follow the SDK rules to a T. Anyone can write something for BB or that just works in a BB (many people write stuff in Java), Opera Mini for example is not specifically designed for Blackberry (it does not even use the keyboard shortcuts) but it works and is one of the most commonly used third party apps on the BB.
    01-20-09 07:23 PM
  5. Crucial_Xtreme's Avatar
    I'm not quite sure why you believe they're having any problems at all.... Obviously you are totally unfamiliar with the process.
    01-20-09 07:26 PM
  6. YourMobileGuru's Avatar
    I'm not quite sure why you believe they're having any problems at all.... Obviously you are totally unfamiliar with the process.
    They are just trying to stir things up, that's all. I think things are moving along nicely. Do some more patching on the memory card issue and fix the stereo bluetoth and the new LED issue and it will be time for a new official release that will blow .75 out of the water.
    01-20-09 07:31 PM
  7. Crucial_Xtreme's Avatar
    They are just trying to stir things up, that's all. I think things are moving along nicely. Do some more patching on the memory card issue and fix the stereo bluetoth and the new LED issue and it will be time for a new official release that will blow .75 out of the water.
    Yep. I guess people forget that they're really not supposed to see or install any of the betas, so technically they're not supposed to know what progress has or has not been made. But that's a perfect world. Regardless, things are coming along just fine.
    01-20-09 07:34 PM
  8. chuckh0308's Avatar
    I'm not quite sure why you believe they're having any problems at all.... Obviously you are totally unfamiliar with the process.
    I wouldn't say that. My question mainly revolved around trying to understand why the operating systems react differently to different phones. I understand with say Windoze and PC's because there are so many variations of hardware, but I was thinking the hardware with the Storm should all be the same, so why doesn't each OS react the same with each phone? This is in no way an attack on RIM or anything...I think the Storm is awesome, but I'm not going to deny that it has some issues that need to be fixed. Seems like if you fix an issue on one then it should fix it on all...that's all I'm saying. I was hoping someone who actually works for RIM (hint, hint) might be able to shed some light on this subject. Everyone who has replied has had some great thoughts though.
    01-20-09 07:37 PM
  9. Crucial_Xtreme's Avatar
    Nobody disagrees that the current Storm on .75 has a few issues. But that in no way means RIM is having a problem with the OS. When the next official release comes out, and theres problems, then and only then can one say they're having problems. The first update was to calm down the masses and give them something better than what was installed at launch. It wasn't intended to be a cure-all. Just like all of the betas. They're not meant to be the ultimate OS. They're supposed to gradually get better. Which is what is happening. I see no problems. I'm amazed how people think each beta is supposed to be the greatest thing ever. It just shows exactly how inexperienced people are to the actual process itself. When the code is ready, there will be an official release.
    01-20-09 07:42 PM
  10. YourMobileGuru's Avatar
    Yep. I guess people forget that they're really not supposed to see or install any of the betas, so technically they're not supposed to know what progress has or has not been made. But that's a perfect world. Regardless, things are coming along just fine.
    *crosses fingers for a new official build by the end of the month or so*

    I've actually been quite impressed with how well they are coming along, so far. The Really the memory card issue and the LED issue have been the only "bugs" that have adversely effected me personally and I can live with them since they were not constant. I've experienced only a couple lockups and in most cases removing a third party app fixed that or I did a battery pull and never had it again. The Storm is a great device and only getting better with the software upgrades.
    01-20-09 07:45 PM
  11. SevereDeceit's Avatar
    Nobody disagrees that the current Storm on .75 has a few issues. But that in no way means RIM is having a problem with the OS. When the next official release comes out, and theres problems, then and only then can one say they're having problems. The first update was to calm down the masses and give them something better than what was installed at launch. It wasn't intended to be a cure-all. Just like all of the betas. They're not meant to be the ultimate OS. They're supposed to gradually get better. Which is what is happening. I see no problems. I'm amazed how people think each beta is supposed to be the greatest thing ever. It just shows exactly how inexperienced people are to the actual process itself. When the code is ready, there will be an official release.
    Awesome post man...
    01-20-09 07:45 PM
  12. chuckh0308's Avatar
    Nobody disagrees that the current Storm on .75 has a few issues. But that in no way means RIM is having a problem with the OS. When the next official release comes out, and theres problems, then and only then can one say they're having problems. The first update was to calm down the masses and give them something better than what was installed at launch. It wasn't intended to be a cure-all. Just like all of the betas. They're not meant to be the ultimate OS. They're supposed to gradually get better. Which is what is happening. I see no problems. I'm amazed how people think each beta is supposed to be the greatest thing ever. It just shows exactly how inexperienced people are to the actual process itself. When the code is ready, there will be an official release.
    I understand what you're saying and I CERTAINLY understand not to expect the leaked OS's to be perfect, but...

    ...the way I understand this is that they leak because they are submitted to Verizon for approval. So, the basis of my question had to do with why the OS's are even submitted to Verizon with problems? So, I was assuming that RIM felt these releases were stable enough to send to Verizon or they never would have even sent them for approval. I figured maybe RIM tries them on phones internally and if they work well there then they get sent to Verizon. But maybe they just send all builds and never actually try them at RIM first? This is what I'm trying to figure out. I guess I'm not explaining myself well enough, but that's normal for me.

    Anyway, like I said, this was never meant to be an attack on RIM or Verizon, nor was it meant to stir anything up. I think I was clear in my original post that this was a serious question and I was looking for serious discussion. Anyone who reads my posts knows that I'm one of the biggest supporters for this phone, so it was a serious search for useful information in how this all works.
    01-20-09 07:54 PM
  13. YourMobileGuru's Avatar
    ...the way I understand this is that they leak because they are submitted to Verizon for approval. So, the basis of my question had to do with why the OS's are even submitted to Verizon with problems?
    CX can correct me of I am wrong here but not all of the leaks came from VZW and not all builds make it to VZW. RIM has their own testers and some of the leaks came from one of them.
    01-20-09 08:07 PM
  14. Crucial_Xtreme's Avatar
    CX can correct me of I am wrong here but not all of the leaks came from VZW and not all builds make it to VZW. RIM has their own testers and some of the leaks came from one of them.
    Negative. The leaks come after the OS "leaves" RIM and makes it to Partners and the carriers.
    01-20-09 08:14 PM
  15. YourMobileGuru's Avatar
    Negative. The leaks come after the OS "leaves" RIM and makes it to Partners and the carriers.
    Thanks for the info, but not all of these builds are seriously intended as release candidates are they? More just to get more people testing them?

    And "partners" could be software designers too could they not? Not just carriers?
    01-20-09 08:18 PM
  16. jamdmyers's Avatar
    One other item:

    Let us not forget that Rim/Verizon made a marketing decision to release
    the Storm on .65 which we all know had significant app and performance
    issues. This was done to hit a marketing date of Christmas / end of year.
    So WE of much faith knowing things will improve took the dive and now
    are bed fellows with our phone developers and providers. AS with any
    partner one can step away if they so chose, ALL l HW / Firmware new
    products have issues... especially a device such as this one.
    but as we peel the onion they problems will become smaller.

    Vz/Rim are still expected to set a standard of customer expectation
    and deliver on their promises. We'll see in the coming months on how
    they are met, so far... so good for me.
    01-20-09 08:27 PM
  17. GrogIam's Avatar
    Most programming houses use a very structured approach to developing software, often referred to as Software Engineering and depending on their experience they are rated on the Capability Maturity Model Integrated (CMMI) scale. RIM would most likely be rated a 5 on the scale (a guess from looking at some of the Bio's of their executives), with their code tightly controlled and what the programmers work on just as controlled.

    Bugs or issues are normally assigned a Priority Level from 1 to 5, with 1’s being full blown show stoppers, and 5’s being mere annoyances. During any given build cycle, Priority One and Two issues are fixed first and if there is still remaining resources and time Priority Three issues will be fixed. Priority Four and Five issues normally will not be touched, even if they are 2 lines of code to fix and considered low hanging fruit. If the total number of Priority 4 and 5 issues grow to a sizable number they might be rolled into a single Priority 1 or 2 issue, but not always.

    After all of the assigned issues are corrected an initial build is put together for testing and assigned a build number. During the testing cycle any issues that are found are Prioritized and normally only the Priority One bugs are repaired, Priority Two or lower might be considered on a case by case basis. The corrections are written and the testing cycle begins again. If no Priority One issues are found, this build in normally Frozen and becomes the new baseline and is released.

    All that being said, the odds of a 100% bug free release are slim to none... it will be more on the line of "Good Enough".
    01-20-09 08:56 PM
  18. pkcable's Avatar
    I'm with Rocka on this one. Amazing progress, VERY quickly is what I'm seeing. Yes there are still issues, but I'm very happy with .86, and .75 was a HUGE improvement over .65. I'm a tinker so I have looked at whatever (and will continue to) the CB Forums have provided, BUT this is not for all. I back up my device often and I have no qualms wiping it and reinstalling, BUT this is NOT for everyone.
    01-21-09 12:18 AM
  19. YourMobileGuru's Avatar
    back up my device often and I have no qualms wiping it and reinstalling, BUT this is NOT for everyone.
    and anyone not wiling to do that really should not be installing leaked OS's in the first place.
    01-21-09 12:23 AM
  20. patches152's Avatar
    I think the point is that the op wants to understand why there r differences between. Storms. Got nothing to do wit bemmpatien. God typing blows on. H browser!
    off topic:
    if i want to post something long on CB or anything, usually i type it on memo pad, spell check, then copy and paste. way easier and hardly ever any keyboard lag!
    02-23-09 02:13 AM
  21. eMpTy43's Avatar
    That is a good idea. I think I may install .86 back and instead of restoring the databases I could just sync my contacts and start with fresh installs of the programs I use. Maybe I will have better success with it? I will do a wipe so that everything is completely gone.
    .86 for me and my co-worker was just a buggy OS in general. Go for .103 since it's been leaked or if you're savvy with the Java loader files go with the .109 hybrid.

    To me, the higher the number, the closer I am to what RIM/BlackBerry is working on at the moment.

    I <3 BlackBerries :-P
    02-23-09 02:24 AM
  22. spierce7's Avatar
    The phones are not all the phones. Even among the 9530's for instance, they have changed some things. For instance, if you have a 9530 when it was just released, there was a clicking issue around the sides. However, I got my phone in January, and it was very obvious that I did not have the same clicking issue with my phone around the edges. There have been different explanations for such, but I've heard the term "hardware upgrade" tossed around, but I am unsure if this actually happened.
    02-23-09 06:26 AM
  23. TeckSupport05's Avatar
    off topic:
    if i want to post something long on CB or anything, usually i type it on memo pad, spell check, then copy and paste. way easier and hardly ever any keyboard lag!
    wow... really bumped the thread for nothing!
    02-23-09 06:54 AM
  24. bigman2's Avatar
    There have been different explanations for such, but I've heard the term "hardware upgrade" tossed around, but I am unsure if this actually happened.
    More like manufacturing tweak.
    02-23-09 09:09 AM
  25. Xplode22's Avatar
    I don't think most of us can imagine all the areas for possible for issues. I'm certainly not a BB development expert, but I have been developing for software for 15 years now. The possible variations between users phones are probably enormous.

    Many people have touched on the obvious - we are running MANY different types of 3rd pary applications. AND many different VERSIONS of these applications. Some of these are native to (specifically developed for) the Storm, but MANY are not. We have no idea how non-native apps may interact with OS and/or hardware.

    The next thing that people have mentioned is the hardware. I agree that - more than likely - not everyone is running the exact same hardware. Maybe that's something RIM should have tried to control better but it's probably just the reality now. I imagine they have as many different phones to test on as they can.

    The one thing that has hardly been mentioned (and IMO is very important) is that there are also MANY variations to how each phone is setup. Think of all the different settings you have on the Storm. The OS itself can probably be setup in thousands of various ways (i.e., all the settings for keyboard, backlighting, GPS, screen, mobile network, etc, etc, etc). Go into Options and look at how many things you can set! The developers have to somehow account for as many variations that may affect something as they can. But they won't be able to catch every variation. And THEN, each native app (email, browser, BB Maps, calendar, etc) can have X number of variations in their settings. The task is really quite enormous.

    After making changes, the developers will probably start unit testing against a "clean" OS build with a "standard" setup. But to reproduce/test a specific problem, they would need to have the exact settings/options that created the issue.

    It's the same with PC development - especially OS development. The amount of variations between users systems is staggering! Most of you just cannot imagine. You just want it to work (understandably) but it is a BIG task. I think RIM is making good progress, but it's a difficult task and there will always be problems on specific phones with specific settings and specific OS releases. It's just the nature of the beast.
    Last edited by Xplode22; 02-23-09 at 12:04 PM.
    02-23-09 11:55 AM
82 1234
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD