05-27-10 05:21 PM
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  1. jlsparks's Avatar
    True, but when 80% of your new users come from a particular market segment, you'd better pay some serious attention on the product development front. And RIM"s own marketing efforts seem to be focused here, so they need to align their own product development efforts.

    And don't forget the power of a user/consumer-centric product to completely change the game at the enterprise level. Look at the PC vs the mainframe/mini-computer. When the PC came out, IT departments dismissed them as toys and when forced to work with them, placed huge restrictions around their use. Corporate departments and individual managers ignored it all and kept buying PC's, and look at which line of devices is dominant now. If RIM doesn't satisfy consumers now, users will eventually drive their IT departments to accommodate iPhone better whether they like it or not. And once that door opens, RIM will be in total catch-up mode.

    Right now RIM owns most IT departments, but IT is a cost center. Revenue generating departments have way more clout when it comes to setting budgets, and way more discretion in how they spend their money.

    - R.
    I'm not calling you out specifically Rooster... your post just happened to be the most recent one that states essentially what others have said.

    Specifically: RIM "better focus on x" or "RIM better focus on Y". I know what I know, and I know what I don't know (there's only 1 person contributing to this thread who I know is tuned in to what's going on in Waterloo... maybe 2).

    What I know is only that which is in the public domain, and what I glean from the aforementioned 1 or 2 plugged in contributors. In other words, I know what RIM's financials look like, where their revenue streams are, what their market share (NA & global) is, and how their devices are selling. I also know what I personally experience as a RIM consumer. In that regard, I know that the S1 was far less than ideal, but despite that it was adequate for a year (and no, I never had to replace mine.) Further, I know that the S2, as a second-generation device, is better in all regards (build quality, fit and function, look and feel, and operationally) than the S1. Sort of like how v2 iPhone was incrementally better than v1 iPhone. Finally, I know that there's a big disparity in people's expectations and experience with all smartphones, not just RIMs.

    What I don't know is exponentially more than what I *do* know. I know what DevCon's major takeaways were, but I don't know how RIM plans to execute what they demoed. I don't know how a webkit browser will integrate with the existing device line, and I don't know if it will be a game changer for people. I don't know what 5.1.x.x will bring us. And I don't know, organizationally, how RIM is positioning itself to address its many challenges. 99.999% of the posters to this thread are in the same spot. Leaving 1-2 folks who are in the know.

    My point is this: there are a lot of posts in this thread, and in others, where folks are playing RIM's shrink. That happens a lot when people don't have a full picture of a particular subject: they make assumptions. I don't find it a useful expenditure of my time, in general, to make assumptions about how a multi-billion dollar, multi-national company is going to run their business over the next 2 weeks, much less the next 12 months. I know it's hard to "wait and see", but for me at least, in the absence of a ton of reliable information, it does seem the most sensible position to take. It's not flashy, or contentious, or anything particularly exciting, but IMO it's reality.

    Meanwhile I'll continue tracking the public info I can get on RIM, and reading with interest posts from those who I trust *do* have the inside track.

    ~jason
    01-17-10 05:10 PM
  2. Krypto's Avatar
    I'm not calling you out specifically Rooster... your post just happened to be the most recent one that states essentially what others have said.

    Specifically: RIM "better focus on x" or "RIM better focus on Y". I know what I know, and I know what I don't know (there's only 1 person contributing to this thread who I know is tuned in to what's going on in Waterloo... maybe 2).

    What I know is only that which is in the public domain, and what I glean from the aforementioned 1 or 2 plugged in contributors. In other words, I know what RIM's financials look like, where their revenue streams are, what their market share (NA & global) is, and how their devices are selling. I also know what I personally experience as a RIM consumer. In that regard, I know that the S1 was far less than ideal, but despite that it was adequate for a year (and no, I never had to replace mine.) Further, I know that the S2, as a second-generation device, is better in all regards (build quality, fit and function, look and feel, and operationally) than the S1. Sort of like how v2 iPhone was incrementally better than v1 iPhone. Finally, I know that there's a big disparity in people's expectations and experience with all smartphones, not just RIMs.

    What I don't know is exponentially more than what I *do* know. I know what DevCon's major takeaways were, but I don't know how RIM plans to execute what they demoed. I don't know how a webkit browser will integrate with the existing device line, and I don't know if it will be a game changer for people. I don't know what 5.1.x.x will bring us. And I don't know, organizationally, how RIM is positioning itself to address its many challenges. 99.999% of the posters to this thread are in the same spot. Leaving 1-2 folks who are in the know.

    My point is this: there are a lot of posts in this thread, and in others, where folks are playing RIM's shrink. That happens a lot when people don't have a full picture of a particular subject: they make assumptions. I don't find it a useful expenditure of my time, in general, to make assumptions about how a multi-billion dollar, multi-national company is going to run their business over the next 2 weeks, much less the next 12 months. I know it's hard to "wait and see", but for me at least, in the absence of a ton of reliable information, it does seem the most sensible position to take. It's not flashy, or contentious, or anything particularly exciting, but IMO it's reality.

    Meanwhile I'll continue tracking the public info I can get on RIM, and reading with interest posts from those who I trust *do* have the inside track.

    ~jason
    Kudos to you Jason. Thank you for posting that in the midst of this.
    01-17-10 07:39 PM
  3. Rooster99's Avatar
    I'm not calling you out specifically Rooster... your post just happened to be the most recent one that states essentially what others have said.

    Specifically: RIM "better focus on x" or "RIM better focus on Y". I know what I know, and I know what I don't know (there's only 1 person contributing to this thread who I know is tuned in to what's going on in Waterloo... maybe 2).

    What I know is only that which is in the public domain, and what I glean from the aforementioned 1 or 2 plugged in contributors. In other words, I know what RIM's financials look like, where their revenue streams are, what their market share (NA & global) is, and how their devices are selling. I also know what I personally experience as a RIM consumer. In that regard, I know that the S1 was far less than ideal, but despite that it was adequate for a year (and no, I never had to replace mine.) Further, I know that the S2, as a second-generation device, is better in all regards (build quality, fit and function, look and feel, and operationally) than the S1. Sort of like how v2 iPhone was incrementally better than v1 iPhone. Finally, I know that there's a big disparity in people's expectations and experience with all smartphones, not just RIMs.

    What I don't know is exponentially more than what I *do* know. I know what DevCon's major takeaways were, but I don't know how RIM plans to execute what they demoed. I don't know how a webkit browser will integrate with the existing device line, and I don't know if it will be a game changer for people. I don't know what 5.1.x.x will bring us. And I don't know, organizationally, how RIM is positioning itself to address its many challenges. 99.999% of the posters to this thread are in the same spot. Leaving 1-2 folks who are in the know.

    My point is this: there are a lot of posts in this thread, and in others, where folks are playing RIM's shrink. That happens a lot when people don't have a full picture of a particular subject: they make assumptions. I don't find it a useful expenditure of my time, in general, to make assumptions about how a multi-billion dollar, multi-national company is going to run their business over the next 2 weeks, much less the next 12 months. I know it's hard to "wait and see", but for me at least, in the absence of a ton of reliable information, it does seem the most sensible position to take. It's not flashy, or contentious, or anything particularly exciting, but IMO it's reality.

    Meanwhile I'll continue tracking the public info I can get on RIM, and reading with interest posts from those who I trust *do* have the inside track.

    ~jason
    No offence taken, Jason - you'd pointed to some solid data, and I apologize if I seemed to be taking it wrong. I hadn't intended to leave that impression. And I agree there's what we know and what we're guessing - hopefully everyone here is wise enough to understand the difference, but I appreciate your desire to ground this discussion in a bit of reality.

    That said, you'd pointed out where the money is now - quite correctly I should add. However, this thread, from the first post, has been about the the future. To me there are key business issues at stake here - RIM's entering a new and powerful market, and the game changing nature of the iPhone. While RIM has been a solid giant in their niche for a long time, IBM used to be as well. IBM ignored the potential of the PC in favour of the mainframe environment they came from, as RIM would be doing if they don't factor in the consumer market. Look where IBM is now compared to where they used to be. They're not gone, but they're not god any more either.

    Many people, in this and other threads, seem to ignore the power and size of the consumer market. The "Berries are business phones" argument is frequently used to actively brush off the concerns and complaints of those viewed as non-business users. I just thought we needed to keep than in mind here as well.

    'nuff said.

    - R.
    01-17-10 07:56 PM
  4. The_Engine's Avatar
    I had dinner with a friend the other night. He is a programmer for a major company. He was saying that BB will be in trouble soon. They are too difficult to design programs because you have to have a differnt one for each device. If you want to create a program for Android and Apple, you design one. If you want to create a program for BB, you need one for many differnt devices. Very time consuming. He said his company is spending less time with BB and more time with Apple and Android.

    He is just one company,but it makes a ton of sense.
    This is very very true in the consumer space. I don't think it has as much impact in the business market. That being said the consumer market does often drive trends in business.

    Very hard to see, the future is...

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-17-10 08:09 PM
  5. mrich70's Avatar


    Anyway, I think the biger picture here is that RIM's thinking that 512MB memory models of the near future will sustain them much better then the current models have. I am betting that it won't. They are shooting themselves in the foot by trying to follow suit of some other smartphone makers and think 512MB is enough to do the job. It won't be and they are also not planning on implementing SD card memory expansion into the OS anytime soon. They played with the idea of internal media memory expansion for app use, but that failed as well. Right now and in the near OS version futures, no memory expansion will be made available. What you have out of the box in terms of flash memory for OS/Apps is what you'll be stuck with. Expect RIM's R&D to flatten out over the next 6 months or so... they will try their best to bring something new and refreshing with the newest OS they are currently working on, but it will ultimately fail in the eyes of true enthusiasts. Sucks to be RIM...
    Wow!!! This makes the future sound really bleak for bb. It seems like in the world of smartphones that expanded memory is becoming the "rule' not the 'exception". This makes me not want to upgrade to the storm 2 like i had planned. How far in the future should I expect to see the 512MB handsets?
    01-17-10 08:10 PM
  6. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    When I was working through my own memory issue with a Telus tech rep he said they'd first noticed the problem about 2 years ago, when the Pearl was released with a camera. The issue was that all the pics (now add videos and music, etc.) took up a lot more space, far more rapidly, than anyone had foreseen.

    So I don't thing it's just a Storm thing. As people use smartphones for more, they will create more user data. And as time progresses, that data will be richer (higher resolution, etc.) so while the "number of units" increase, so will the "size/unit". And as the smartphone audience increases, so will the app competition - and as features, etc. are added, the apps themselves will get larger. This is all true for any device and any user - corporate/business or consumer.

    - R.
    That's because your so called "tech rep" wasn't aware that the Pearl was released with no media card in it. Not only that, but unlike the S1 or S2, it didn't have internal media memory either (1GB for S1 and 2GB for S2 respectively). Back when the Pearl and Curve started to come with cameras, those phone had no choice but to save the pics to the normal Flash memory that is also OS/App memory, but that's not the case with the S1 or S2. Even with some carriers NOT selling the handsets with a media card installed, the phone will NOT save pics or video to the app memory, but rather the internal media memory, so your rep was wrong in his assumptions on what's happening in regards to the memory ideals.
    01-17-10 09:55 PM
  7. tobleron's Avatar
    When I was working through my own memory issue with a Telus tech rep he said they'd first noticed the problem about 2 years ago, when the Pearl was released with a camera. The issue was that all the pics (now add videos and music, etc.) took up a lot more space, far more rapidly, than anyone had foreseen.

    So I don't thing it's just a Storm thing. As people use smartphones for more, they will create more user data. And as time progresses, that data will be richer (higher resolution, etc.) so while the "number of units" increase, so will the "size/unit". And as the smartphone audience increases, so will the app competition - and as features, etc. are added, the apps themselves will get larger. This is all true for any device and any user - corporate/business or consumer.

    - R.
    Your right!This is what am talking about!Same thing like Computer world!Any one here heard about Microsoft(where r u) and Verizon(do u hear me now?) merge? I wish.
    01-17-10 10:09 PM
  8. Joneser2006's Avatar
    Your right!This is what am talking about!Same thing like Computer world!Any one here heard about Microsoft(where r u) and Verizon(do u hear me now?) merge? I wish.
    Hmmm PMS-VW...

    Sounds like a psychotic car




    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-17-10 11:09 PM
  9. MonsterInaBox's Avatar
    That's because your so called "tech rep" wasn't aware that the Pearl was released with no media card in it. Not only that, but unlike the S1 or S2, it didn't have internal media memory either (1GB for S1 and 2GB for S2 respectively). Back when the Pearl and Curve started to come with cameras, those phone had no choice but to save the pics to the normal Flash memory that is also OS/App memory, but that's not the case with the S1 or S2. Even with some carriers NOT selling the handsets with a media card installed, the phone will NOT save pics or video to the app memory, but rather the internal media memory, so your rep was wrong in his assumptions on what's happening in regards to the memory ideals.
    Right on the money, but you left out the worst part though. Once the internal memory was full with pictures, the phone would start to overwrite things like the Address book during normal operation. The amount teenage girls bringing in their pink Pearls with spinning clocks and missing contacts was a bit crazy for a while at my store. I worked in a town with a University and two Colleges so I had to move a lot of 'interesting' photos to the memory cards I installed for them .
    01-17-10 11:28 PM
  10. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    Right on the money, but you left out the worst part though. Once the internal memory was full with pictures, the phone would start to overwrite things like the Address book during normal operation. The amount teenage girls bringing in their pink Pearls with spinning clocks and missing contacts was a bit crazy for a while at my store. I worked in a town with a University and two Colleges so I had to move a lot of 'interesting' photos to the memory cards I installed for them .
    Oh, that must have been awful for you.

    Nothing beats the revelation of doing the same thing in an office environment and realizing just what a "freak" everyone is. lol I find it so amuzing that pretty much everyone guards their sexuality so closely, thinking no one could possibly be the same way... ya, ok.

    And there goes this thread... lol
    01-17-10 11:36 PM
  11. chuckh0308's Avatar
    So, what kind of pictures do YOU have on your phone? LOL!
    01-17-10 11:42 PM
  12. The_Engine's Avatar
    So, what kind of pictures do YOU have on your phone? LOL!
    And that's what we call a thomas the tank engine moment. (de rail)

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-18-10 06:11 AM
  13. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    So, what kind of pictures do YOU have on your phone? LOL!
    Don't need a camera... photographic memory... try and hack that.
    01-18-10 04:52 PM
  14. mudpud's Avatar
    This is not the way to look at it. Any business owner knows it's a lot easier and cheaper to keep your existing client base and have them upgrade and spend their money along with finding new clients. A happy client will refer you/ your product to create new sales.
    An unhappy client though, will unfortunately spread the news faster about about the poor quality of the product, about 9x faster than spreading good news. So now the company needs to spend more money to find a new customer base to make up for the ones that jumped ship plus the ones to expand their base.
    I understand that Storm1 owners make up a small percentage of the overall RIM clientele, but many of them were first time BB users looking for a new product. For all those that jump ship, the majority would probably not tell their friends, 'dont buy the Storm' but generalize and say ' don't buy a BB'.
    So, basically I cant see a company pushing out new products every year and disregarding what they sold just a year ago and saying 'sorry see you on the next device!'
    I don't want to belive that's what RIM is doing and am keeping my hopes up that S1 won't be left behind after just 1 year after being released.
    I completely agree. Storm1 was my first foray into smartphones. I only got it because I hated AT&T. Otherwise I would have gotten the iPhone. I'm now quitting RIM as soon as the iPhone comes out on the Big Red in Q3 of this year. Goodbye RIM! Goodbye 80's style OS.

    Today, as I was trying to find my flagged messages, I realized how CRAPPY BIS email is. You can't access your subfolders on an exchange account unless you do it through the browser?!? You can flag messages, but can't view them. I have RULES applied to my incoming mail on my Microsoft Exchange server - I had to eliminate them.
    01-18-10 06:24 PM
  15. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    I completely agree. Storm1 was my first foray into smartphones. I only got it because I hated AT&T. Otherwise I would have gotten the iPhone. I'm now quitting RIM as soon as the iPhone comes out on the Big Red in Q3 of this year. Goodbye RIM! Goodbye 80's style OS.

    Today, as I was trying to find my flagged messages, I realized how CRAPPY BIS email is. You can't access your subfolders on an exchange account unless you do it through the browser?!? You can flag messages, but can't view them. I have RULES applied to my incoming mail on my Microsoft Exchange server - I had to eliminate them.
    I think you'll be happy with the iPhone, simply because ActiveSync on it works so well with your Exchange mailbox... you'll be able to navigate all your subfolders you created under the inbox and you can reinstate your rules as well.
    01-18-10 06:28 PM
  16. hagerspider's Avatar
    I have a pornographic memory, does that count? And it can be hacked.
    01-18-10 06:47 PM
  17. The_Engine's Avatar
    I think you'll be happy with the iPhone, simply because ActiveSync on it works so well with your Exchange mailbox... you'll be able to navigate all your subfolders you created under the inbox and you can reinstate your rules as well.
    Civic - you always talk about active sync. Am I wrong or isn't that an additional software package that his company has to buy and support? As I understand it, and I may well be wrong, EAS costs about as much as BES and is only worth it if you are on exchange 07.

    My point is that he should confirm what his corporate exchange has/supports as far as mobile connectivity. Without EAS the I Phone will as useless as his storm as far as exchange is concerned.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-19-10 04:12 PM
  18. The_Engine's Avatar
    Also, .451 just became official for 9500 out of Vodafone australia. So there is some hope still that we will continue to see some OS leaks for 9530 since so many carriers are yet to roll out an official 5 update.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-19-10 04:14 PM
  19. Krypto's Avatar
    Here's an interesting thing... since this was posted, we've seen several more 5.0 OS releases on the Storm and Tour, including what appears to be 5.0.0.451 on Vodafone AU... Looks like the carriers haven't given up yet, and looks like RIM is still making OS versions available to carriers (.451 is a jump up from the last .425 release for the 9500).

    Civic, thank you. I will give your thread credit for the recent set of OS releases by carriers. I can't say what's happening in terms of further OS development, but it at least seems that some carriers are still interested in providing OS upgrades, even if it might be the final one they release for some time.

    EDIT: LOL, The_Engine and I were thinking exactly alike... nice one!
    Last edited by Krypto; 01-19-10 at 04:23 PM.
    01-19-10 04:20 PM
  20. Wheelman74's Avatar
    512MB models? You mean there's going to be a Bold3, Tour3, Storm3 coming out by the end of this year? It's to be expected eventually, but this is insane.

    Can it, RIM. Build a phone that works and get your software in shape. This is embarrassing and I wonder how many RETAINED customers you will have...many move to the BB and become addicted...then they see there are silly limitations -

    A 2MB app is huge. Battery pulls and memory loss. ****tiest browser on smartphones today. And YET -

    they keep pumping out hardware upgrades. Don't you think the consumer users are more likely to move to Android or a possible Verizon iPhone when they realize how unreliable BB's have become?

    I thought upgrading everyone to trackpads, WiFi, increased memory and 5.0 would be enough for a little while. Look like they want to keep confusing everyone with 9730s, 9750s, 9800s, and so on. And they don't LISTEN because things are going so well with new converts to smartphones who don't get it..
    dont forget the curve 4 and the pearl 2 and 3!!
    01-19-10 05:10 PM
  21. Joneser2006's Avatar
    Well, Civic, it looks like you've been asked,..........

    Who is John Gault?

    Bottom line, in 2010, with billion dollar budgets and revenues, a more perfect or even complete product should be demanded. But, it just isn't, except by those who notice.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-19-10 05:40 PM
  22. Krypto's Avatar
    So Boy Genius just came out with a quick report that also just happens to pertain a bit to this thread. Supposedly Verizon is planning on releasing a 5.0 OS update for the Tour in late February to early March (quite likely after the Tour 2 is out??).

    Looks like even Verizon is still willing to do upgrades...

    Here's the link: BlackBerry Tour 9630 gets 5.0 OS upgrade from VZ in Feb/March Boy Genius Report

    Pretty unofficial, but still, they're usually pretty accurate over there.
    01-19-10 05:54 PM
  23. howarmat's Avatar
    the builds are out there i am sure...**** they have 5xx builds probably it just depends on what the carriers test and get leaked.

    Just like .220 for 4.7.....it never dropped but its out there
    01-19-10 07:10 PM
  24. The_Engine's Avatar
    Truth of the matter is that more 5.0 leaks or officials does not necessarily disprove Civics supposition that 5.0 is a dead end for devices with less than 256 mb of memory. Honestly I think 5.0 was always a stepping stone. It was a vehicle to get as many devices as possible onto a common core. This makes sense for Apps since RIM can point the developer community to a single SDK. It is hard enough to sell developers on the aged java platform when there is more modern platforms with better portability out there. I think we will see more significant changes in 5.1. If you remember when we were all waiting to see 5, Radio and some others talked about dev starting on 5.1 and then stopping. I think RIM wanted to move on to big changes faster than they could because of issues with 5. Really 5 was more about unification and courting devs then really changing the user experience.

    As far as devices go, RIM really started getting a ton of market share last year with the BOGO deals. The best sellers were curve 83xx and Storm's. So the millions of bb users are now approaching their 2 year mark and will start being elig for upgrades mid to late 2010. So their timing is perfect. Get the masses in cheaply with BOGO deals on the aging Curve fleet and push your way into the touchscreen market at the same time. Then when folks are ready for upgrade, you have a shiny new set of devices with more bells and whistles etc. Only problem. There is how poorly the Storm was developed at release. So they have some attrition in that area, but most curve users are happy and chomping at the bit to get the Esser or Bold 9700.

    As always this year will tell a lot about how well RIM has situated themselves for competition with I Phone and Android in the smart phone sphere.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-19-10 07:53 PM
  25. Krypto's Avatar
    Yup, that's what I'm figuring... who knows what's happening on the development end. But as Civic put it:

    "The carriers have also pretty much come to a standstill on certifying any new 5.0 OS versions for some of their existing models. Their hopes are to move onto newer devices. Verizon wants to certify OS5.x for the current Tour 9630, but is having second thoughts because the 9650 is almost here with improved hardware/memory. Most likely, they'll leave the 9630 in the dust or release just one 5.0 build (higher then 5.0.0.40x) right before the 9650 hits market. After that, no other current handset will see anything major in terms of OS improvements or releases until the new OS versions surface with the introduction of 512MB memory models and with the introduction of the new browser/widget capabilities."

    Seems like at the very least now, there is a bit of a push on by carriers to upgrade some of their devices, which doesn't necessarily agree with the above comments (of course, each carrier has it's own agenda and will do what they want, regardless of what US carriers might do). Perhaps this is a final push and then things will dry up, but at this point at least, it doesn't look like the 5.0 upgrades are ending. And it looks like Verizon is putting those second thoughts on upgrading the 9630 to rest and will indeed be upgrading the model.

    Basically, the point of my posts has been to say that maybe it's not as much doom and gloom as people have been taking it from the original post in this thread. Of course development from RIM on these devices is going to drop, just like they decreased with all older models, and sure, Verizon and other carriers won't be spending as much effort on testing new OSes on these devices (they have new models with more bugs that need more testing and upgrades), but this is nothing different than would be expected for any model. Heck, even the iPhone 2G won't be getting upgraded to the new iPhone 4.0 OS and the iPhone 3G will soon be left behind as well. But it isn't as drastic as a lot of users have been taking it and it isn't as drastic as the title and original post of this thread make it out to be.
    Last edited by Krypto; 01-19-10 at 08:44 PM. Reason: Fixed some grammatical errors
    01-19-10 08:23 PM
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