05-27-10 05:21 PM
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  1. MonsterInaBox's Avatar
    Oh man, I don't know where to even start..... First let me say that I will agree some things need to be changed. I will also say some things work very well and other mobile platforms try their arse off to imitate and still can't get it. I think people need to sit back and decide what it is they need their mobile device to do for them, and choose accordingly.
    Let me next say that there are bugs in all software. Please don't sit here and tell me the Droid and Nexus One don't have software issues. I will show many from both. I'm not excusing bug within BlackBerry software, but I'll be damned if RIM is the only one. And with the two models mentioned it is the manufacturer not the carrier like with BlackBerry software, that releases firmware for these devices.

    I can't say what I want/need to say in this thread for a variety of reasons. And again I'm not saying everything is great with BlackBerry, but let's not act like it's all roses on the other side when it's definitely not. Good discussion though.
    And on the 11th page, Crucial_Xtreme ascended and said, "Let there be fact!" and there was fact. And Crucial_Xtreme saw the fact, that it was good: and He divided the fact from the fiction.

    01-16-10 12:40 PM
  2. jelp2's Avatar
    Exactly what sort of news flash is this thread? S1 was thrown a parting OS bone on the launch of S2. S1 died the day S2 came out, don't kid yourselves otherwise. RIM and carriers are focused on new contracts and new sales. And S2 doesn't look long for this earth either. Knock me over with a feather the day S3 drops and S2 users start realizing they are on the outside.
    This is not the way to look at it. Any business owner knows it's a lot easier and cheaper to keep your existing client base and have them upgrade and spend their money along with finding new clients. A happy client will refer you/ your product to create new sales.
    An unhappy client though, will unfortunately spread the news faster about about the poor quality of the product, about 9x faster than spreading good news. So now the company needs to spend more money to find a new customer base to make up for the ones that jumped ship plus the ones to expand their base.
    I understand that Storm1 owners make up a small percentage of the overall RIM clientele, but many of them were first time BB users looking for a new product. For all those that jump ship, the majority would probably not tell their friends, 'dont buy the Storm' but generalize and say ' don't buy a BB'.
    So, basically I cant see a company pushing out new products every year and disregarding what they sold just a year ago and saying 'sorry see you on the next device!'
    I don't want to belive that's what RIM is doing and am keeping my hopes up that S1 won't be left behind after just 1 year after being released.
    01-16-10 01:07 PM
  3. duece2478's Avatar
    I have not read all of the post but since, they are not going to continue working on making this device work properly with there software. Meaning that I run there officail os .320 and have issues with the buttons and other issues. I should inturn beable to get a new phone or my money back.
    01-16-10 01:53 PM
  4. Rooster99's Avatar
    Hi, is this plane going to Beirut... has Rooster99 tired to light his/her underware on fire yet? Will the in-flight movie be Delta Force? lol
    JRS, I am sorry! I had NOT intended to hijack your thread!

    As I noted, I knew I was a little off topic but I felt I was really only looking for more specifics on a particular issue you'd spent some time on.

    But if my question didn't fit, then my apologies - you won't hear from me on this again except (perhaps) to reply to any specific posts aimed at me. Anything else I contribute will be 100% in line with your topic.

    Please, carry on - this is one of the most informative threads on this site.

    - R.
    01-16-10 03:27 PM
  5. Rooster99's Avatar
    The way I personally see it, the main focus of RIM is for their corporate users as this has and will probably continue to be their bread and butter. I just don't think that they are too worried about the non-corporate users.
    In their last financial report it said 80% of their new users were BIS - that would be non-corporate.

    Sorry, but with all due respect I don't see the validity of your assumption. do they not care about 80% of the new users who sign up? That would be a little short sighted, no? Am I missing something?

    - R.
    01-16-10 03:30 PM
  6. Chase.Barnett's Avatar
    I have some bad news for anyone hoping to see a lot more development for OS5.0 for the Storm or any other device with 128MB of Flash or less. Development for OS5.0 for 9630 and below models (128MB or less memory) has pretty much come to a crawl. There are several issues that remain on these OS versions and RIM has decided to move onto the next OS versions which are to support 256MB and higher memory devices. Their new OS development is concentrating on 512MB device models still due to be released in the near future and devices with less then this about will be treated much like current 64MB models have been when it came to OS4.5 or higher support. 128MB memory models will not run the new OS being designed for the newer 512MB hardware, only 256MB and OpenGL models will support it, but at some performance loss compared to the newer models still due to hit market.

    The carriers have also pretty much come to a standstill on certifying any new 5.0 OS versions for some of their existing models. Their hopes are to move onto newer devices. Verizon wants to certify OS5.x for the current Tour 9630, but is having second thoughts because the 9650 is almost here with improved hardware/memory. Most likely, they'll leave the 9630 in the dust or release just one 5.0 build (higher then 5.0.0.40x) right before the 9650 hits market. After that, no other current handset will see anything major in terms of OS improvements or releases until the new OS versions surface with the introduction of 512MB memory models and with the introduction of the new browser/widget capabilities.

    Sorry, but that's the way it's going to be... I hate it too.
    With crap like this happening, I can say I am done with RIM. I am already pissed with my storm with its low app memory and random freezes and reboots, but to leave us the the dust like this is pathetic. I bought a product and I want to have support and improvement on a far from perfect device.

    Next device will not be RIM unless they change their ways.
    01-16-10 03:34 PM
  7. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    Exactly what sort of news flash is this thread? S1 was thrown a parting OS bone on the launch of S2. S1 died the day S2 came out, don't kid yourselves otherwise. RIM and carriers are focused on new contracts and new sales. And S2 doesn't look long for this earth either. Knock me over with a feather the day S3 drops and S2 users start realizing they are on the outside.
    The intention of this thread was to also depict that this is happening to ALL current BB models that don't fit the bill of the near future. I just so happened to put this in the S1 forums because this is really where it all started in terms of RIM's inability to do something right.
    01-16-10 04:18 PM
  8. tobleron's Avatar
    With crap like this happening, I can say I am done with RIM. I am already pissed with my storm with its low app memory and random freezes and reboots, but to leave us the the dust like this is pathetic. I bought a product and I want to have support and improvement on a far from perfect device.

    Next device will not be RIM unless they change their ways.
    I was very disappointed when i read the very first post of this thread(but not to the one who posted this Thread )I just purchased my S1 last March of 2009, and now i feel like it's garbage.How sad!
    01-16-10 06:59 PM
  9. Valace2's Avatar
    screw it lets all go back to smoke signals and 28.8 modems.

    DIAL UP ROCKS!!!
    01-16-10 07:13 PM
  10. The_Engine's Avatar
    In their last financial report it said 80% of their new users were BIS - that would be non-corporate.

    Sorry, but with all due respect I don't see the validity of your assumption. do they not care about 80% of the new users who sign up? That would be a little short sighted, no? Am I missing something?

    - R.
    ...And Rooster redeems himself for the earlier hi jack.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-16-10 08:04 PM
  11. sivan's Avatar
    Interesting thread. I can say that the same anxieties can be seen in Android and Palm Pre forums. I haven't checked iPhone ones, but I'm sure there are concerns about multitasking, app store, and screen resolution, for examples.

    Palm is solving its memory problems by doubling down in its new Plus model. Android's continuing problem with app space has to do with allowing USB drive mode access to the SD card and potential piracy. The iPhone was designed with no drive mode, only iTunes is used to manage its storage. This freed Apple to use all the space for media and apps. Palm recently solved the same problem by encrypting the apps directory in its storage while in USB drive mode. It's all about piracy with those platforms.

    In any case, again, interesting to see so much anxiety by smartphone users, very similar questioning of manufacturers' motives and methods, and frustration with the growing acceptance of shoddy software releases and planned obsolescence. Behind all this angst is probably the fact that the devices are still too expensive and depend on subsidies, which in turn invites carrier restrictions, and agonizing compromises between features and network quality.

    I may be wrong in this, since I'm new to BB, but it seems to me that this is mostly a Storm line issue, since it's RIM's answer to challenges by Apple/Palm/Google. I'd like to think that my 9700 is largely outside of this debate.
    01-16-10 09:02 PM
  12. tobleron's Avatar
    I dont know if someone here still remember what i have said in some of my post saying: "Microsoft where are you,do you hear me now?"did someone caught what i meant by this?If not well,nevermind,someone will attack me for sure!

    BTW: But this is very interesting!(at least for me!)But,lets see if this gonna happen!!
    Last edited by tobleron; 01-16-10 at 11:01 PM. Reason: BTW
    01-16-10 10:27 PM
  13. Qazme's Avatar
    In their last financial report it said 80% of their new users were BIS - that would be non-corporate.

    Sorry, but with all due respect I don't see the validity of your assumption. do they not care about 80% of the new users who sign up? That would be a little short sighted, no? Am I missing something?

    - R.
    There is a HUGE difference between "new" users and their already existing user base. According to their 2009 yearly report to investors 60% of new subscribers where consumer level. They have a subscriber level hitting upwards of 25 million.

    From last year RIM is looking at about 14 million to 25 million subscribers meaning 11 million new people this year. This means 6.6 million of those people are consumers level. Given no exact numbers of the other 14 million I would guess the mass majority of those are enterprise.

    They continue to state that enterprise is still very important to them considering they have 175,000 organizations with BES installed. That speaks volumes to me.

    Here's the link to the fiscal report: http://www.rim.com/investors/pdf/RIM09AR_FINAL.pdf

    Seems some people need to do a bit more research about their core audience here. Bottom line is they see they are starting to get some true consumer level exposure and they need to come out with better, more capable hardware and to do this they will need to re write their O/S to reflect what consumers want. In the end this means they will have to drop continued full support to legacy hardware rather it be 8 months old or 2 years old. Bring in the new.
    01-16-10 11:34 PM
  14. The_Engine's Avatar
    Well, looks like many of us will have to do some research and figure out what platform us best for us. By fall 2010 VZW will have I Phone, palm Pre Plus, Nexus One and Storm3. S3 will probably be the last to arrive but first to be LTE, unless Palm or Android will have an LTE Device in the fall. So for those of us on VZW we will have some serious selection.

    For me I need great exchange integration and my company has BES and no plans for active sync. I am used to BB but would love to see what other platforms offer. I don't think I would like to pay for lots of apps, so android or palm might be the way for me, but not sure on the exchange support. In the end a 4g storm 3 running with my corporate BES may be hard to beat especially if UI is improved and it has a really good browser.

    Guess we'll see in the fall.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-17-10 08:25 AM
  15. Crucial_Xtreme's Avatar
    There is a HUGE difference between "new" users and their already existing user base. According to their 2009 yearly report to investors 60% of new subscribers where consumer level. They have a subscriber level hitting upwards of 25 million.

    From last year RIM is looking at about 14 million to 25 million subscribers meaning 11 million new people this year. This means 6.6 million of those people are consumers level. Given no exact numbers of the other 14 million I would guess the mass majority of those are enterprise.

    They continue to state that enterprise is still very important to them considering they have 175,000 organizations with BES installed. That speaks volumes to me.

    Here's the link to the fiscal report: http://www.rim.com/investors/pdf/RIM09AR_FINAL.pdf

    Seems some people need to do a bit more research about their core audience here. Bottom line is they see they are starting to get some true consumer level exposure and they need to come out with better, more capable hardware and to do this they will need to re write their O/S to reflect what consumers want. In the end this means they will have to drop continued full support to legacy hardware rather it be 8 months old or 2 years old. Bring in the new.
    BIS = Device is subsidized & consumer pays all monies to carrier. RIM only sees small percentage of gross for use of BIS network.

    BES= Depends on the company but devices are subsidized & company pays money to carriers but RIM receives money for each CAL. 500 CAL's go for about $6,000.00 and 500 CAL's go for roughly $27,000.00. This isn't including setting up the network, maintenance nor one of the many levels of Tech Support which in it's own right is fairly expensive. So while there may be more regular consumers, BES is where the money is at.

    I'm not saying RIM has forgot and doesn't care about average consumers, only pointing out that BES customers add more the the bottom line than regular BIS users.
    01-17-10 10:17 AM
  16. littlegreenmen's Avatar
    RIM is making money either way. Their jump into the touchscreen world has been somewhat of a techno -nightmare but at the same time they made tons of cash from it. Based on the numbers that crucial showed all the revenue generated by the storm is basically extra cash. Their main base is set in BES. I think storm owners need to understand that in the big picture were a small entity. Was nice to have around but wont be missed too much if gone.
    Last edited by strmtrooper; 01-17-10 at 11:19 AM.
    01-17-10 11:17 AM
  17. Nbpuli's Avatar
    RIM is making money either way. Their jump into the touchscreen world has been somewhat of a techno -nightmare but at the same time they made tons of cash from it. Based on the numbers that crucial showed all the revenue generated by the storm is basically extra cash. Their main base is set in BES. I think storm owners need to understand that in the big picture were a small entity. Was nice to have around but wont be missed too much if gone.
    You are right: RIM is making money at the present time. Their problem is that the major source of future revenues is clearly located in the consumer sector of the smartphone market. Their shortsighted approach to OS development and both software and hardware quality control is going to cost them market share and eventually cause significant impact on their profitability. The specter of Palm and their precipitous fall from dominance into irrelevance is ever present.
    01-17-10 12:56 PM
  18. Tlynnsmith's Avatar

    How can you blame RIM for making a phone with low App memory? Is it RIM's fault that you bought it and decided to try and load the whole app world onto it? lol I mean seriously. The specs are on the friggin box!!!
    I'm sorry...but that was TOO funny!
    01-17-10 01:11 PM
  19. Rooster99's Avatar
    I may be wrong in this, since I'm new to BB, but it seems to me that this is mostly a Storm line issue, since it's RIM's answer to challenges by Apple/Palm/Google. I'd like to think that my 9700 is largely outside of this debate.
    When I was working through my own memory issue with a Telus tech rep he said they'd first noticed the problem about 2 years ago, when the Pearl was released with a camera. The issue was that all the pics (now add videos and music, etc.) took up a lot more space, far more rapidly, than anyone had foreseen.

    So I don't thing it's just a Storm thing. As people use smartphones for more, they will create more user data. And as time progresses, that data will be richer (higher resolution, etc.) so while the "number of units" increase, so will the "size/unit". And as the smartphone audience increases, so will the app competition - and as features, etc. are added, the apps themselves will get larger. This is all true for any device and any user - corporate/business or consumer.

    - R.
    01-17-10 02:07 PM
  20. Rooster99's Avatar
    ...And Rooster redeems himself for the earlier hi jack.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Whew! <wipes sweat off brow>

    - R.
    01-17-10 02:08 PM
  21. Rooster99's Avatar
    BIS = Device is subsidized & consumer pays all monies to carrier. RIM only sees small percentage of gross for use of BIS network.

    BES= Depends on the company but devices are subsidized & company pays money to carriers but RIM receives money for each CAL. 500 CAL's go for about $6,000.00 and 500 CAL's go for roughly $27,000.00. This isn't including setting up the network, maintenance nor one of the many levels of Tech Support which in it's own right is fairly expensive. So while there may be more regular consumers, BES is where the money is at.

    I'm not saying RIM has forgot and doesn't care about average consumers, only pointing out that BES customers add more the the bottom line than regular BIS users.
    True, but when 80% of your new users come from a particular market segment, you'd better pay some serious attention on the product development front. And RIM"s own marketing efforts seem to be focused here, so they need to align their own product development efforts.

    And don't forget the power of a user/consumer-centric product to completely change the game at the enterprise level. Look at the PC vs the mainframe/mini-computer. When the PC came out, IT departments dismissed them as toys and when forced to work with them, placed huge restrictions around their use. Corporate departments and individual managers ignored it all and kept buying PC's, and look at which line of devices is dominant now. If RIM doesn't satisfy consumers now, users will eventually drive their IT departments to accommodate iPhone better whether they like it or not. And once that door opens, RIM will be in total catch-up mode.

    Right now RIM owns most IT departments, but IT is a cost center. Revenue generating departments have way more clout when it comes to setting budgets, and way more discretion in how they spend their money.

    - R.
    Last edited by Rooster99; 01-17-10 at 02:23 PM.
    01-17-10 02:19 PM
  22. Rooster99's Avatar
    You are right: RIM is making money at the present time. Their problem is that the major source of future revenues is clearly located in the consumer sector of the smartphone market. Their shortsighted approach to OS development and both software and hardware quality control is going to cost them market share and eventually cause significant impact on their profitability. The specter of Palm and their precipitous fall from dominance into irrelevance is ever present.
    Well said!

    - R.
    01-17-10 02:20 PM
  23. pm1066's Avatar
    The intention of this thread was to also depict that this is happening to ALL current BB models that don't fit the bill of the near future. I just so happened to put this in the S1 forums because this is really where it all started in terms of RIM's inability to do something right.
    Well, again, the entire cell phone industry from carriers to makers have been trying to move everybody to the 1-2 year hardware upgrade cycle forever. New every two, anyone? Not exactly a shocker.

    BTW, I'm not saying it is a good or bad business model, it just is. The blame lies squarely on the shoulders of all legacy BB users for NOT upgrading according to RIM's/Verizon's/Telus'/etc's master plan. The major flaw I see is they are trying to do iPhone like rollouts, but forgot they don't have the crazed MacAddict cult behind them to gobble up whatever crumbs Jobs throws their way.

    In the end, it might be best for the bulk of S1 users, you know, the people who don't hang out at this forum, for S1 to be quietly abandoned. The unwashed masses will never know the difference, and when the go to upgrade, RIM will be there waiting with an S3 or who knows what. Only the "power user" crowd is really getting screwed, if you can call it that. After all, the S1 now pretty much does what it is supposed to do. Are we to eventually expect HD or something?
    01-17-10 03:16 PM
  24. Krypto's Avatar
    The unwashed masses will never know the difference, and when the go to upgrade, RIM will be there waiting with an S3 or who knows what. Only the "power user" crowd is really getting screwed, if you can call it that. After all, the S1 now pretty much does what it is supposed to do. Are we to eventually expect HD or something?
    So true. The vast majority of Storm users are still perfectly happy with their Storms. And for Telus users, that means that many of them are still perfectly happy with 4.7.0.122. The phone works for their communications needs and that's all. They don't care about extra apps and they don't care about watching movies on it or taking pictures. They just want it for email, phone, sms and that's it. And if that's all you're doing on it, you don't tend to run low on memory very often.

    We're the only ones who would actually care if RIM stops OS development.
    01-17-10 04:41 PM
  25. jpf22467's Avatar
    I know I'll get flamed for saying this, but it is just another thing that will help people decide to go to the Android OS.

    I played with a Nexus One and it is a superb device in every way.
    Blackberry is being left in the dust, trying to keep up.

    Moving on.

    I had dinner with a friend the other night. He is a programmer for a major company. He was saying that BB will be in trouble soon. They are too difficult to design programs because you have to have a differnt one for each device. If you want to create a program for Android and Apple, you design one. If you want to create a program for BB, you need one for many differnt devices. Very time consuming. He said his company is spending less time with BB and more time with Apple and Android.

    He is just one company,but it makes a ton of sense.
    01-17-10 04:47 PM
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