05-27-10 05:21 PM
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  1. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    That is really what we are talking about...Scalability. However, like most things the comparison to the I Phone is, excuse the Pun, not apples to apples. Yes the I Phone can run the same OS as the 3G and the 3Gs. Apple had enough vision to create an architecture for the memory that would scale. However let's look at how the Original or even 3G was at launch. Would a Storm1 with 256 mb of flash, but no EvDo been better? How about without GPS? Or maybe inoperable SMS, or no Multi Tasking? Apple gave you great hardware, but didn't release a feature complete device. Maybe on Generation 4. Storm had a much more complete feature set, but was underpowered from a memory perspective. Or to be more precise from an OS that utilize the Memory to better advantage. By the 2nd Generation of the Storm, the device is more feature complete then the I Phone, and with the 256 of memory and now Open GL support would appear not be missing much.

    Yes, I know the Browser. RIM is getting there, just as Apple is getting there on Enterprise Support and Multi Tasking.

    The Point I make is that the S2 will have a web kit browser and will support the 5.1 OS or whatever RIM has coming and it is 3G (3.5 G actually) and has the excellent messaging capabilities that you expect from RIM. Yes there are still deficiencies, but it seems that RIM is getting there in 2-3 Generations and the I Phone is still trying to deliver basic functions in their 4th gen.

    So RIM is doing well on 1 front, but definitely is behind the 8 ball on their Memory architecture and playing catch up with Hardware.

    So again each platform/Device has it shortcomings and dependent on your needs/wants you have decide which is the lesser of 2 evils.
    This isn't really a compare an iPhone to a BB. I was using that as an example to show how RIM can better design their memory and hardware architecture to guarantee the future use of the device without big issues, especially at the OS level (where a lot of advancements and feature capabilities are enabled via).

    The original iPhone didn't have 3G because AT&T didn't have much of a network to begin with at that time, so no 3G. EVDO was out way longer then AT&T's 3G network and even Rev.A was pushed out long before AT&T pushed out 3G themselves. So, keep that in mind. The only things the original iPhone cannot do that the current ones does is MMS (without a hack), GPS, and that's about it I think. Big whoop, a year or so later, the 3G came out, so it's comparable to what happened with the S1/S2 changes. But the fact remains that when you look at an iPhone and BB (doesn't matter what model) only an ***** would think that the BB is more "feature rich" then the iPhone. I'm not a big Apple fan by any means, but out of the box, the iPhone can definitely provide a much more robust user experience then a BB can. It can even provide a better Enterprise Email experience (if you have Exchange, which most up to date companies do) at no additonal costs "out of the box". Bottom line, Apple is way ahead of the curve in terms of memory management on the mobile front. ALL other smartphone manufacturers (yes, even Android's hardware platform) are still playing catchup. The big difference between the platforms is that Apple saw the need for tons of memory from a media standpoint and they also knew that their apps would be a lot bigger. The other platforms have such poor capabilities that their app sizes are considerably smaller in size. Inturn, the manufacturers of these platforms are continuously overlooking the need for proper memory sizes and management on the handsets as that when the time comes for big apps, everyone is left out in the cold. The bad thing is that RIM's got more problems because they can't even utilize an SD card to install apps to. At least Android (while not yet natively supporting this, but soon will) can be hacked to allow for this.

    Anyway, with the way the economy is going, you're going to see a lot more people try and maximize their investment into a smartphone. You're going to see people want to do more with their phones (be it entertainment or work related) and they are going to want to do it for less money or no money. This is where other platforms are going to succeed. They will be able to provide users with a better overall experience and without limiting their wants from a smartphone by charging extra for a feature or ability (i.e. full email sync via expensive BES software and licensing). It's going to be a wild ride...
    01-13-10 09:39 AM
  2. jusdis's Avatar
    I really dont understand what arguing about it really does though. If you're really unhappy with your phone complaining wont make you happier....pointing out what RIM is doing wrong wont make it better.....pretty much you are wasting time that could be spent researching and purchasing a different phone that is more appealing to you. Provides you with a better experience....and makes YOU happy.

    HOW HARD IS THIS CONCEPT TO GRASP???!!!
    01-13-10 09:59 AM
  3. jusdis's Avatar
    There has only been 3 overall versions of the iPhone. Original, 3G, and 3GS. OS3.0 brought Copy/Paste to ALL models. The original iPhone didn't have GPS, but did have cell tower/wifi hotspot triangulation (worked better then 8830 using Google Maps "My Location").

    If we're going to play this game, I still can't add specific info to my contacts without copy/pasting the info one by one. I can't even select a number in the call log and expect the BBOS to add the number to anything but the "Work" number for a new contact, let alone prompt me for an existing contact. A Samsung clamshell did this 5 years ago.


    As for the BES communications, all the traffic from BES server and the NOC still traverse the WWW/Cloud like anything else. The data may be encapsulated, but it's still crossing public networks, otherwise it wouldn't work.

    RIM needs to work on a way to move the NOC "polling and pushing" of email on BES/BIS from the NOC and to the end devices (i.e. the BES server and the BB handset). On BES, this would be easy, let the BES server encapsulate everything and do the actual pushing of the email directly to the handset without the need of the NOC. On BIS, this would be a bit harder since no "Push Server" resides on the email provider's server location.

    I think the real issue here is that a BB (by design) doesn't really expend a lot of battery power keeping constant connection to the email servers. Their data traffic is treated very much like a regular phonecall is done. The connection is there, but not fully on until a tip/ring comes through (i.e. the Push signal from the NOC to the PIN of the handset). If they can change the way this works a bit, I think they can improve the system some. The issue has never been the NOC providing security, it's that it provides another point of failure in the infrastructure and it also gives people a "false" sense of security to some extent. There are other ways to secure your email sending/receiving from your server to an endpoint other then RIM's idea of BES and their NOC. RIM's biggest business capability and come to fame for their platform is that they can provide this security via a "Single Turnkey Solution". Put a BES inside your network, attach a few BBs to it, and poof, you have secure email communications by just buying the solution from us instead of relying on other software and costs from other vendors to accomplish the same thing. The big advantage for them is that they also provided this a while ago when people were using many different email servers in their organizations. RIM came to the party providing a way to transport that email to mobile devices no matter what email server type you used (Lotus, old school Exchange, GroupWise, etc.) Of course everyone jumped on the solution. But, as MS becomes a more prevalent email solution with Exchange and smartphones on the market becoming more capable in terms of what email protocols they support, it won't be long until RIM won't be able to keep selling the same old Turnkey Solution without some big revamps.

    Anyway, we can go on forever discussing the different points on this, but that still doesn't get us any closer to a solution. I just know one thing... platforms are rapidly advancing around RIM and it seems they're stagnant and trying their best to maintain their lead by "partnering up" and offering other things. While partnering up is good to some degree, it also shows that your company has lost the ability to maintain its core product and services direction and are looking for a way to appease the masses by selling more isht. I'm not expecing everyone to agree with me, but I for one would like RIM to steamline and focus on a few less things now that are a bigger concern. We don't need a projector adapter, we need a phone that works and a NOC that doesn't go down.

    To argue another fact, based on current downtime that RIM's seen for their NOC, their infrastructure cannot even be characterised as anything better then a Teir 2 Datacenter at best... that's kind of sad for RIM's part in 2010. What's even worse (if we're to believe it) is that "poorly build software" (i.e. BBM) was the reason for the most recent NOC takedown/overloading. And that brings us full circle to the problem of bullisht coding of OS and Core Apps causing big issues for RIM and the BB platform. Thanks for playing...
    Basically this arguement comes down to YOUR preference....YOUR use of the phone...YOUR needs....

    There are a ton of phones out there that can do what YOU want out of your phone.

    Sooooo.....What would be the gameplan for you????

    Simple...If your shoes have holes in them and your feet are getting wet....you buy new shoes!

    You should go shopping now.

    Stop moaning.
    01-13-10 10:03 AM
  4. jusdis's Avatar
    And you're wasting your time writing the same isht over and over again in this thread. We get it, bye bye. You're not grasping the concept of the discussion here, so see ya later. Thanks for stopping by.


    But hey, if you want to stay, let's play a little game. You give me some other smartphone options which you think would better suit my needs right now and I'll show you why I am currently shooting them down. (not that this thread is even about what applies to me, but hey..) Cool?... k, cool.


    And you are doing what????? Writing the same **** over and over...

    You have something to shoot down with other smartphones as well?

    Clearly you have high expectations of the world around you.....

    Go get in your lab and create the perfect phone then genious....

    WOW....Bitter!
    01-13-10 10:07 AM
  5. jusdis's Avatar
    (not that this thread is even about what applies to me, but hey..) Cool?... k, cool.


    Is it not? The phone is good enough for my use.

    All your talking about is what they should be doing to make it more like the "other" smartphones....so get a different phone.


    Clearly you have high expectations and can't be satisfied easily.
    01-13-10 10:09 AM
  6. mikewanda1971's Avatar
    its all good my storm 2 will be here today. hopefully before i go to work.
    01-13-10 10:12 AM
  7. jusdis's Avatar
    And you're wasting your time writing the same isht over and over again in this thread. We get it, bye bye. You're not grasping the concept of the discussion here, so see ya later. Thanks for stopping by.
    You are soo right...I just dont get it. Thats what I've been saying the whole time...

    I appreciate you pointing out all the time I just wasted.

    Bye Bye...

    Note to self...Dont argue with chicks....all talk no listening
    01-13-10 10:16 AM
  8. travelingfool's Avatar
    You are soo right...I just dont get it. Thats what I've been saying the whole time...

    I appreciate you pointing out all the time I just wasted.

    Bye Bye...

    Note to self...Dont argue with chicks....all talk no listening
    cmd c:\open\can_of_worms\instigate.bat

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-13-10 10:20 AM
  9. jusdis's Avatar
    cmd c:\open\can_of_worms\instigate.bat

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com


    Tried it...didnt work... What now?
    01-13-10 10:22 AM
  10. Valace2's Avatar
    If something doesn't drastically change, I think this might be my last Blackberry. I don't have any use for the current line up of Android phones to be honest and the Iphone is on a sub par sad sack network that doesn't even give you 3g.

    Where is the GOD DAMNN WEBKIT!! This is so fricking stupid.

    That is the one thing that will help RIM draw even with the rest of the pack.

    An another thing WHY IN THE HELLL DO THEY CONTINUE TO RELEASE HANDSETS WITH THAT GOD AWFUL 08 BOLD THEME????

    It was great back then but now looks so bloody outdated.

    This is my bloody theme, and on off days its the iphone theme,



    I don't like the droid, but I loath the damn stock 08 theme they have shoving down our throats, how hard is it to revamp your damnn themes??? Go to the nearest community college grab an art major pay em some money and roll out something fresh!! Its not rocket science, even I can build a theme that at least looks better than the damn damnn 08 bold theme.

    Sorry to hijack the thread but I am sick of this, and no I won't be switching because like I said the android phones don't do it for me and AT&Why Me is a god awful network.
    01-13-10 10:33 AM
  11. TheMisses's Avatar
    My point was why would they support old hardware when they dont sell them anymore. The Blackberry Bold 9000 has been discontinued in the UK for around 5 months. And anybody who wants to buy a dead horse can do.... i'll stick with my 9700 who can jump fences... even if only 3 legs make it all the way over
    Ok, first of all: by creating a product that hardwarewise might work ok but softwarewise is far from complete and releasing that product on the market, you are creating a responsibility to yourself and your customer, saying that "beta firmwares are here, get used to it" (mr ballsilly's words, not mine) does confirm that the products often aren't finished, let alone *fit* for sales. But still they get sold, since the consumer trusts that you as a company will solve the problems. Sure, you can stick a finger up into the air and say: up yours! But you cannot do that too much, people will leave your products in the store the next time they need a new one of that type of product. This is what is happening with a lot of BB users atm. Due to the storm/storm2 failures.

    Second of all, now you are strictly focussing on people who are going to buy a new phone. You are forgetting about the millions upon millions that have bought the storm last year, thinking they would buy a good finished product, and a well supported device. Both do not appear to be completely true, but RIM presents itself and its products in that fashion.

    I do not care what kind of arguments you can think of and present here on a forum. In reality, most people will not bother to goto a forum at all. The device will be exchanged or at least the next buy will NOT be a BB. And that was *before* RIM (appearantly) said: we are not going to support devices with such and such much memory. Oh sure, they can run the application fine. And yes, they do have enough memory. But we, dumbthingies, have build in an artificial 100mb limit, in a time where 1,5TB storage devices are common, and fast flash devices of 320GB are common too. Thus excluding you from the next fix for our unreliable, unfinished product. Which we now sell under the name Storm2. Since the storm was just a... well, test product.

    Again, they can do it once, twice, maybe thrice and for some true hardcore fanboys four or five times, but there comes a time for most people that those things become unacceptable, leaving the products in the store. And as a company, you do not want that. I think RIM is thinking too highly of itself ATM. Yes, they can be VERY good, but lately they have dropped the ball more than a few times. And with the new nexus one and other devices coming out, it is going to be a though time for RIM, and that is strange, seeing as IT sales are climbing and will continue to climb for now. For RIM though, I'm guessing by this time next year their market value will have dropped compared to now.

    I think it is too bad. I liked RIM but they have messed up just a bit too much. Even with official releases of os4.7 and NO themes or apps installed (true out of the box equipment) the device functions just not good enough. After it has been out for more than a year. It is dropped, and send to tech heaven.

    You cannot keep on effing people over like that. Even the american people and government now have to agree on that. Most prominently shown in the oh so strongly ridiculed health care system that the rest of the western world likes to use. It was considered communistic, but now that enough people have had to deal with the hideous beast the old system really is, the same people that have defended it in the past, are now condemning it to... well, whatever. Same goes for companies who think that they can do this sort of things without consequence. Only companies will feel the pain a lot sooner. And I really hope that RIM will clean up its act, cause I know that I, for one, will never ever advice anyone to buy a BB ever again. Nope, just the opposite.
    01-13-10 10:48 AM
  12. TheMisses's Avatar
    hah, you got jokes. no sir, i will never be purchasing an iphone, so long as apple's current business practices continue.
    You are absolutely right in that department. Soooo... this spring, Google Nexus One, anyone?
    At least, I hope that they will have their act together in all areas: sales, support, functionality, hardware and software. AND longevity...
    01-13-10 10:51 AM
  13. TheMisses's Avatar
    Yes there are still deficiencies, but it seems that RIM is getting there in 2-3 Generations and the I Phone is still trying to deliver basic functions in their 4th gen.

    So RIM is doing well on 1 front, but definitely is behind the 8 ball on their Memory architecture and playing catch up with Hardware.

    So again each platform/Device has it shortcomings and dependent on your needs/wants you have decide which is the lesser of 2 evils.
    That last sentence is correct: lesser of 2 evils. Both are not doing WELL, one is doing LESS BAD then the other. Both are doing bad. And if those sort of companies do not get their act together, there will come another company that does, and it *will* CRUSH those other two.

    Google will rule the world in the future... :P
    01-13-10 10:56 AM
  14. TheMisses's Avatar

    Sorry to hijack the thread but I am sick of this, and no I won't be switching because like I said the android phones don't do it for me and AT&Why Me is a god awful network.
    Yes they do. The Nexus One is the first fully equipped and widely supported phone that does it all, and better. The amount of apps just has to go a bit, and since we will all be going the way of web apps, that is a sure thing to happen.

    Ah yes, I love the smell of RIM and Apple defeat in the Spring. I think the NO is available for 600 bucks, unlocked and all. Good thing.
    01-13-10 11:07 AM
  15. travelingfool's Avatar
    I think the NO is available for 600 bucks, unlocked and all. Good thing.
    "NO". A perfect acronym for a phone I won't be getting.

    Just say NO.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-13-10 12:37 PM
  16. dcsr23's Avatar
    Well I think I can sum it up as this... and from what JRSC is saying...

    RIM is basically trying to start over, but kinda turning it's back on it's current offering of phones, while still introducing and offering these very same products they know do not fit in to a long term roadmap due to slight hardware refreshes instead of major hardware upgrades.

    What's wrong with this business model/philosophy is this.. we sign up for a new phone maybe on a 1 year, and most probably on 2 years just to save on the cost of the phone... but the phone hasn't been out a full 2 years and was never really consumer ready from release. There are numerous bugs in this phone, and with each update, something else breaks. RIM has decided to stop applying bandaids and patches to something they know isn't worth fixing because by Novemeber our 2 years are up we can all get new phones.

    So yeah it works for basic functions (barely), but that's about it. RIM doesn't seem to design for future scalability and I think that's what may discourage JRSC as well others from continuing to do business with RIM as a whole because if this is how they are gonna introduce new products and decide "eh, it's not worth fixing, lets start over"... who's going to want to continually deal with it.

    I guess RIM is pulling a Microsoft ME with the Storm 1.
    Last edited by dcsr23; 01-13-10 at 01:19 PM.
    01-13-10 01:00 PM
  17. littlegreenmen's Avatar
    Alot of everyone i know that bought a STORM(myself included) was because it was being promoted as different kind of BB experience. Different than what the normal BB user was used to. So i thought. Now dont get me wrong ive had a reasonably good experience with my phone since learning how to use it properly. But the phone is what it is, a touchscreen version of every other BB out there. Nothing at all exciting about it. Now for business users im sure theyre very happy that things more or less stayed the same, some dont like the touch at all. But for myself i guess i really was expecting something more and after some time with the phone i more and more realized its never going to happen. My bad i guess for over expecting but again the experience hasnt been awful, just not what i thought. I really believe the only way RIM can make it in the touchscreen area of phones is to change everything up. As for S1, well now that its officially going to get buried i guess its time to move on. Nexus is around the corner. Im pretty sure theyll be a few updates to the Nexus software before it hits verizon so we'll see what happens in the spring.
    01-13-10 01:27 PM
  18. dcsr23's Avatar
    The way it feels is that the s1 was kinda like a product test. "If we build it, would there be a demand?" And it passed, because the marketing machine over at Verizon/RIM led everyone to believe you would be getting that iPhone experience with the reliability and stability of the two. Well that experience falls way short in that it's nothing close to an iphone wannabe. It seems to be more the black sheep of blackberry's.

    Considering the news, I'm wondering if I should even bother with activating the S2 that I have since it sounds like that too is obsolete.
    01-13-10 01:52 PM
  19. Curis's Avatar
    I guess RIM is pulling a Microsoft ME with the Storm 1.
    Though the Storm 1 has improved tremendously since release and I am happier for it, there was a time when I would have likened it to Microsoft Bob more so than Windows ME.
    01-13-10 01:53 PM
  20. The_Engine's Avatar
    Wow. Just goes to show how passionate we all are about our crackberry's.

    Here is a simple formula...

    Web/apps > I phone
    Messaging/enterprise support/security > blackberry
    Little bit of both > google

    There is something for everyone. Each platform does just about everything but the above speaks to what they excel at. Google seems to be in middle but more towards I phone then BB. Know yourself and choose wisely.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-13-10 03:38 PM
  21. f-castrillo's Avatar
    Wow. Just goes to show how passionate we all are about our crackberry's.

    Here is a simple formula...

    Web/apps > I phone
    Messaging/enterprise support/security > blackberry
    Little bit of both > google

    There is something for everyone. Each platform does just about everything but the above speaks to what they excel at. Google seems to be in middle but more towards I phone then BB. Know yourself and choose wisely.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    There's the problem of which carrier to choose also. AT&T has BlackBerry, iPhone, and Nexus One. Verizon has the Droid and BlackBerry.

    Do the carriers fund the R&D of their flagship devices at all? Verizon should pitch in a little with BlackBerry and Android hardware and software development so that they could potentially have their own "iPhone", without actually having the iPhone.

    Unless the iPhone 4G (rumored) ends up coming to VZW... in which case they can continue to remain competitive with AT&T at a handheld standpoint.
    01-13-10 05:25 PM
  22. The_Engine's Avatar
    There's the problem of which carrier to choose also. AT&T has BlackBerry, iPhone, and Nexus One. Verizon has the Droid and BlackBerry.

    Do the carriers fund the R&D of their flagship devices at all? Verizon should pitch in a little with BlackBerry and Android hardware and software development so that they could potentially have their own "iPhone", without actually having the iPhone.

    Unless the iPhone 4G (rumored) ends up coming to VZW... in which case they can continue to remain competitive with AT&T at a handheld standpoint.
    I don't think VZW cares about the I Phone. Look at how long AT&T has had it. Has is really changed the success of AT&T? They are barely staying above water. VZW is has and will continue to invest in their network knowing that devices come and go, but the strength of the network is what brings loyalty.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-13-10 05:45 PM
  23. EnergyPlus's Avatar
    Correct me if I'm wrong (as if, on cracberry, one even needs to say that? lol), but I think it's T-Mo that currently has the Nexus One and VZW is slated to begin carrying it this Spring.

    It has been my experience with other carriers that it matters not WHAT phones the other carriers have, if it isn't in VZW's shop, it's not gonna be in my hands.

    This has all been interesting reading (much of which was way over my head) and it does cause me to wonder. When discussing things in my own areas of expertise, I'm more than happy to get into the most esoteric of conversations, realizing that for the masses, it matters not, they only want to be "happy" with what they have (or at least, somewhat so). I think the same is true for the cell business. Many of you can get down into the mud and discuss the nitty gritty but most folks simply want a phone that works reasonably well and provides the features and reliability that they want/need. There is no panacea, we're not in Kansas anymore, Dorothy.

    There's the problem of which carrier to choose also. AT&T has BlackBerry, iPhone, and Nexus One. Verizon has the Droid and BlackBerry.

    Do the carriers fund the R&D of their flagship devices at all? Verizon should pitch in a little with BlackBerry and Android hardware and software development so that they could potentially have their own "iPhone", without actually having the iPhone.

    Unless the iPhone 4G (rumored) ends up coming to VZW... in which case they can continue to remain competitive with AT&T at a handheld standpoint.
    Last edited by EnergyPlus; 01-13-10 at 06:24 PM.
    01-13-10 05:54 PM
  24. les_the_sailor's Avatar
    I haven't even had my phone a year and it is already being EOL'd (end of lifed). I may take a serious look at Nexus when it comes to Verizon.
    01-13-10 06:21 PM
  25. howarmat's Avatar
    Honestly if VZW gets the Nexus and happens to get a jesus phone 4G its going to be interesting. They will have a droid, the N1, Storm 2 and maybe Storm 3 by years end actually and then the iphone. I wont say they will put ATT out of business because we know that wont happen but VZW will take a part of their business for sure. The industry could see some interesting things happen.
    Last edited by howarmat; 01-13-10 at 07:20 PM.
    01-13-10 07:03 PM
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