05-27-10 05:21 PM
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  1. tobleron's Avatar
    This really does not supprise me. This really is the way of life for comsumer electronics. The old are phased out so the R&D teams can spend more effort on the latest and greatest. We see this all the time in the computer world.
    This is the reason why i open this nonsense and idiotic post.Sorry!*smile*

    http://forums.crackberry.com/attachm...-tombstone.jpg

    Mr. tobleron, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
    lol...Thanks anyway Howarmat!No problem!
    Last edited by tobleron; 01-12-10 at 06:42 PM.
    01-12-10 06:15 PM
  2. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    Mr. tobleron, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
    lol, I love that movie!!!!
    01-12-10 07:12 PM
  3. jlsparks's Avatar
    Yeah, I think you made a few "size" mistakes there jl.

    Also, NOT all smartphone makers are following the same design principals of "just enough memory" to fit today's needs. Apple made the iPhone a couple of years ago with tons of app memory (not enough RAM, but TONS of app memory). They haven't changed that design principal since then and each year they just double it up for even more. This hasn't deterred people from buying the new models and it won't anytime soon, so the argument of "People won't buy the next phone if their current one is stacked" is just marketing bullisht and nothing more. Don't kid yourselves, the OP is not a scare tactic... RIM has released over 674 builds of OS5 for the Storm1/2... so far, all are flawed, and there's no end in sight for this. The problem is at the core... a core which RIM is working frantically to try and reengineer. The next 6-8 months will show you if they succeed or fail.

    Pass me the low fat popcorn please...


    p.s.
    If all you got from the OP was just that "memory is an issue" you totally missed the point of it. The whole memory info was used to give you guys an idea of where things are going and why. Call it a "we shot ourselves in the foot" moment for RIM.
    Nah JRS, the point I was trying to make regarding the (apparent) development of 512K+ devices is that - in spite of those devices being in development - I'd imagine RIM has prototypes with double that app memory on campus right now. Maybe I didn't communicate it artfully, but bottom line is that development is well ahead leaked specs, and a smart business IMO is looking a few chess moves down the board and isn't focused on the rook about to take their pawn.

    Since your OP was so comprehensive, and touched on a number of issues, I elected to focus on the "memory" aspects of it since, as you've acknowledged in the past, the BBOS is so poorly crafted the only way to resolve deep design flaws is to throw more memory at the problem and mask it. Or rewrite BBOS.

    Anywho, we're on the same page. The more salient point I wanted to communicate, regarding the positives, is that this should slow the insane spewing of "new" devices running different OSs. It *should* stop the product line and OS fragmentation. Should...
    Last edited by jlsparks; 01-12-10 at 07:39 PM.
    01-12-10 07:35 PM
  4. travelingfool's Avatar
    lol, I love that movie!!!!
    If tobleron would have come back with: "A simple no would have done just fine," he would have taken the first step in vindicating himself.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-12-10 07:50 PM
  5. jlsparks's Avatar
    Since the os isn't going to be supported, now might be a good time to ditch the storm and go with an Iphone (just a thought).
    No, thank you.
    01-12-10 08:01 PM
  6. EnergyPlus's Avatar
    I think you're overlooking a very important point. Businesses need to GROW, grow for increased profits, grow to satisfy stockholders and grow to remain viable in the market place. While enjoying the initial success of their business strategy, at some point RIM reached a tipping point where they had to expand their market in order to be sustainable. It was clear, way back when, that the cell phone market was expanding way beyond the doors of big business and the world beyond offered a hundred fold times the potential revenue. To closet themselves and say "we only want businesses for customers" would be criminal.

    On and on and on. go buy a different phone already. How did RIM start out again? Business phones right? High security for corporate use? Email....perfect for businesses and execs on the go? When was the last time you saw a CEO using his flashlight app? Or playing a virtual piano?
    As a normal everyday conSumer with plenty of free time to dink around and play games on a BLACKBERRY; or say use the above mentioned "flashlight" to find their drunken way through a college dorm, it would be understOod why you need 15 million Terabytes just for apps. But for business purposes is it really that necessary?
    I ask again....What were the original intentions and focus of RIM? Quit complaining about what YOU want it to do?
    The bottom line is you followed the latest "trend" and now you realize that that trend just wasn't for you. You were left disappointed and now you're trying to blame RIM.
    Consider this.....if you were going to buy a car for your family of 8 would you buy a two door coup because everyone else is? Then ***** at the manufacturer because you can't get everyone in it without it being weighed down and slow?

    Think about it like that.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-12-10 08:11 PM
  7. EnergyPlus's Avatar
    Since the os isn't going to be supported, now might be a good time to ditch the storm and go with an Iphone (just a thought).
    Now that has to be the most ridiculous logic I've ever heard (well, not quite, but it's in the ballpark)!
    01-12-10 08:12 PM
  8. wayfr's Avatar
    ha! i knew it! i just didnt think it would be quite this soon though. i was kinda leaning towards them "maybe" rolling out an update in the distant future, but nothing monumental. so in just over a year, the S1 is, for all intents and purposes, dead. i've said it before.... "your S1 is pretty much as good as it's ever going to be". RIM or VZW may offer tech support or troubleshooting for your phone should you contact them, but as far as actual improvements it's over. it's being abandoned. and you people said i was crazy and they would continue to update this model. seriously, i used to love my storm, but over the course of the 7 or 8 months i had my S1, i found that the freezes and battery pulls (or QP) were getting to be ridiculous. c'mon.... you have to install an app to simulate a battery pull? why? for that matter, why the need for a daily battery pull in the first place? other mfgs don't have that problem. with my android, once a week i turn the phone off for about 3 seconds, then right back on again. this was just one of the quirks of the S1 that finally turned me off to RIM. that and all of the "advancements" that RIM started incorporating into 5.0 were already in use by htc and many other mfgs (flick scrolling, threaded sms, seamless transitions, and tabbed browsing just to name a few) for quite some time before RIM even started toying around with the ideas. i'm not a RIM basher or anything,and they have been innovative in some areas but they seriously need to consider redesigning their OS from the ground up instead of just heaping more crap on top of the same outdated and incapable one that they've been using for several years now. you've all heard it before and it's true (for the most part), "all RIM does is sell the same thing over and over in a newer and prettier (debatable) package". sure there are some differences between the models, but not enough to set one apart from all the others.
    just something to consider.... "in a world that doesn't, droid does
    just curious here.... anything new and exciting with the latset OS leaks? i kinda miss them.
    01-12-10 08:40 PM
  9. The_Engine's Avatar
    I can upgrade in october. At that time I will do my research and see what is out, or soon to be out that fits my needs. The S1 worked for me and still does. I personally think that

    1) civic has this info on no authority whatsoever but is just putting a story behind several recent issues. In a way she sees the writing on the wall and is telling us what she sees. I could be wrong this is my opinion.

    2) the defects being pointed out here are in many ways insignificant. The device works fine. I am not saying that there aren't bugs, but I don't think the inability to hit the menu key when looking at a phone record over 30 days old made anyone say "oh ****! Scrap OS 5! We done f'd up Bad!". If there are major issues in 5, let me know what they are. I don't doubt there are some, I just think the examples given are minor.

    3). Each smart phone has its ups and downs. People love the I Phone. It is a wonderful device and truly revolutionized how we look at cell phones. But it fails in several categories. So does Android, so does BB, so does Palm. You have to learn about the pros and cons and make an educated decision about what works for you. And that won't always be what works for others, or even what works for you in a year or two.

    I will see what happens in the upcoming months and that will be the only way to tell if Civic really nailed this one, or just made a prediction that was off. RIM has a very solid history of supported older devices so I am going by history and expect to see some more out of OS5.

    Truthfully I don't expect to see my S1 running widgets and a UI full of eye candy. In a way seeing that coming down the pipe line makes feel good about what is coming and that 2 years after the S1 came out we will be seeing a significant upgrade from hardware, UI, OS, network technology, etc in the S3. To me that would be worth my $ on an upgrade. But maybe something else will be better....for me.

    Rant /over.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-12-10 08:40 PM
  10. rorkin's Avatar
    that leaked version was made by RIM. Carriers decide whether or not to release it.
    Rather circular argument.. THe released version that the carrier released was also written by rim. A distinction without a difference
    01-12-10 09:26 PM
  11. grover5's Avatar
    Interesting stuff. Outside of the future abilities of a company I have no interest in, I must admit i did extensive research for months prior to picking my current phone. I considered my needs and my preferences as well as the performance of the device. I reviewed the specs and read the reviews. I chose the 9700 bold. I love it. It is brilliant for what I want and need. That's it.
    01-12-10 09:33 PM
  12. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    Nah JRS, the point I was trying to make regarding the (apparent) development of 512K+ devices is that - in spite of those devices being in development - I'd imagine RIM has prototypes with double that app memory on campus right now. Maybe I didn't communicate it artfully, but bottom line is that development is well ahead leaked specs, and a smart business IMO is looking a few chess moves down the board and isn't focused on the rook about to take their pawn.

    Since your OP was so comprehensive, and touched on a number of issues, I elected to focus on the "memory" aspects of it since, as you've acknowledged in the past, the BBOS is so poorly crafted the only way to resolve deep design flaws is to throw more memory at the problem and mask it. Or rewrite BBOS.

    Anywho, we're on the same page. The more salient point I wanted to communicate, regarding the positives, is that this should slow the insane spewing of "new" devices running different OSs. It *should* stop the product line and OS fragmentation. Should...
    J, I guess I should have been more obvious in what I meant.

    You said 512K... "K"... while it is mathematically correct, it really should just read 512M "M" as in Megabyte.

    Anyway, it would be foolish to think that they aren't playing with devices that have more memory and I'm by no means saying that they should throw more memory at a device to overcome the shortcomings of the OS.

    What I am saying is that they should give us hardware that's worth a damn and will support future OSs from this day forward within reason. What RIM is currently doing IS NOT WITHIN REASON!

    Let me give you a good example of this... iPhone (the original built one of 3 years ago) can run the latest iPhone OS on it. Sure, it lacks a couple of the new 3GS capabilities written within the new OS, but the newest OS RUNS ON THE IPHONE MADE 3 FREAKING YEARS AGO! Show me a Blackberry made 3 years ago that can run OS5. Heck, show me one made 2 years ago that can do it.

    Come on, let's get real... 3 years ago, BB devices had 64MB flash memory mainly. The 8830 cannot run anything beyond OS4.5 and even that taps it at about 10MB free with only a couple of apps loaded. The 8330 is in the same boat and it had 96MB of flash memory. You see what I'm getting at here? Apple (short of their limited carrier penetration in the US) is having absolutely no issue selling the iPhone 3GS, and most of the people who bought it were iPhone or iPhone 3G users. So, the whole "they won't buy our new devices if we give them a good handset" is bullisht and everyone knows it.

    The Pre had 8GB on release day... 8GB!!!! With the soon intro of the Pre Plus, it goes up to 16GB. WTF is so hard about doing the same thing on RIM's end? I'll tell ya... it's the way the OS architecture works. Fix that and you fix your hardware issues. The next thing after that will be the NOC infrastructure... or do the best thing out there, fix them both at the same time, but that'll be really hard. I suggest you fix the handset side of things first and phase out the old NOC topology with the old BB handsets. If you time it just right, you can solve all your issues within the next few years, but it's not going to be easy by any means.


    I have to hand it to RIM. They have problems on both ends of the stick, whereas other smartphone makers only have to deal with the handsets, RIM also has to deal with the network that support their handsets... and you know what they say... "Two wrongs don't make a right."
    01-12-10 09:41 PM
  13. jlsparks's Avatar
    J, I guess I should have been more obvious in what I meant.

    You said 512K... "K"... while it is mathematically correct, it really should just read 512M "M" as in Megabyte.

    Anyway, it would be foolish to think that they aren't playing with devices that have more memory and I'm by no means saying that they should throw more memory at a device to overcome the shortcomings of the OS.

    What I am saying is that they should give us hardware that's worth a damn and will support future OSs from this day forward within reason. What RIM is currently doing IS NOT WITHIN REASON!

    Let me give you a good example of this... iPhone (the original built one of 3 years ago) can run the latest iPhone OS on it. Sure, it lacks a couple of the new 3GS capabilities written within the new OS, but the newest OS RUNS ON THE IPHONE MADE 3 FREAKING YEARS AGO! Show me a Blackberry made 3 years ago that can run OS5. Heck, show me one made 2 years ago that can do it.

    Come on, let's get real... 3 years ago, BB devices had 64MB flash memory mainly. The 8830 cannot run anything beyond OS4.5 and even that taps it at about 10MB free with only a couple of apps loaded. The 8330 is in the same boat and it had 96MB of flash memory. You see what I'm getting at here? Apple (short of their limited carrier penetration in the US) is having absolutely no issue selling the iPhone 3GS, and most of the people who bought it were iPhone or iPhone 3G users. So, the whole "they won't buy our new devices if we give them a good handset" is bullisht and everyone knows it.

    The Pre had 8GB on release day... 8GB!!!! With the soon intro of the Pre Plus, it goes up to 16GB. WTF is so hard about doing the same thing on RIM's end? I'll tell ya... it's the way the OS architecture works. Fix that and you fix your hardware issues. The next thing after that will be the NOC infrastructure... or do the best thing out there, fix them both at the same time, but that'll be really hard. I suggest you fix the handset side of things first and phase out the old NOC topology with the old BB handsets. If you time it just right, you can solve all your issues within the next few years, but it's not going to be easy by any means.


    I have to hand it to RIM. They have problems on both ends of the stick, whereas other smartphone makers only have to deal with the handsets, RIM also has to deal with the network that support their handsets... and you know what they say... "Two wrongs don't make a right."
    You're right, I typoed. And yes iphone v1 can run the current iPhone OS 3.whatever.they're.up.to.now. You overlook a couple of fairly basic core functions iPhone v1 & (to an extent) v2 lacked and still lack, OS upgrade or no:
    1. No GPS. None.
    2. No 3G compatibility. None.
    3. No cut/paste. None.

    To Apple's credit of course, they addressed these issues with 3G and GS; however, the product @ launch and 1 year after launch was deficient in ways similar to, for example, S1/S2. I know this because I owned a v1 and v2 iPhone.

    As far as RIMs NOC infrastructure I don't see that changing. Major BES implementors, including the government, expect email to transit securely from mail server, through RIM's NOC, to the device and back. I don't see how they'd tolerate exposing that data to the broader interwebs, absent some other, equally secure, transit mode. Of course for BIS consumers this is far less an issue. But going back to the issue of RIM having too much handset diversity globally, let me bring that around very briefly to the NOC. I suppose that BES traffic could continue to transit through the NOC, while BIS traffic could be either: a) tagged as with a lower QoS, since directing it through the existing NOC topology but deprioritized as compared to BES traffic; or b) not handled through proxies. The corollary here is that creating a BIS/BES dichotomy would send RIM down the same road their device release "strategy" has taken them.

    Putting on my Jim Basille hat I'd 1st slash and burn my way through the current device line. Bought a Tour 2 years ago? I'll give you a free Tour2 and EOL your Tour. Don't want the upgrade? I'll give you a 6 month headstart and on 8/1/10 EOL the Tour. Ditto S1. Ditto 8530. Ditto Pearl. You can keep your phone, but you won't receive support or maintenance updates. 2nd, with a stable, manageable number of devices to support, I'd task my engineers with developing 2 operating systems: 1 touch, 1 non-touch. Tweaked modestly to meet carrier-specific needs, but the entire core would be the same.

    So much work to be done. The pisser is it *can* be done though, and I'm hoping it will.

    Hrm, so much for "briefly"..
    01-12-10 10:09 PM
  14. Shifty_P's Avatar
    I guess its time for a droid phone...

    I can't see myself continuing to purchase RIM devices when they release incomplete operating software as official, and then abandon it. When I first got my storm, I thought it was kind-of fun. I'm a tinkerer, and I like to work on stuff. This is getting ridiculous though.
    Last edited by Shifty_P; 01-12-10 at 10:42 PM.
    01-12-10 10:35 PM
  15. MonsterInaBox's Avatar
    You're right, I typoed. And yes iphone v1 can run the current iPhone OS 3.whatever.they're.up.to.now. You overlook a couple of fairly basic core functions iPhone v1 & (to an extent) v2 lacked and still lack, OS upgrade or no:
    1. No GPS. None.
    2. No 3G compatibility. None.
    3. No cut/paste. None.

    To Apple's credit of course, they addressed these issues with 3G and GS; however, the product @ launch and 1 year after launch was deficient in ways similar to, for example, S1/S2. I know this because I owned a v1 and v2 iPhone.

    As far as RIMs NOC infrastructure I don't see that changing. Major BES implementors, including the government, expect email to transit securely from mail server, through RIM's NOC, to the device and back. I don't see how they'd tolerate exposing that data to the broader interwebs, absent some other, equally secure, transit mode. Of course for BIS consumers this is far less an issue. But going back to the issue of RIM having too much handset diversity globally, let me bring that around very briefly to the NOC. I suppose that BES traffic could continue to transit through the NOC, while BIS traffic could be either: a) tagged as with a lower QoS, since directing it through the existing NOC topology but deprioritized as compared to BES traffic; or b) not handled through proxies. The corollary here is that creating a BIS/BES dichotomy would send RIM down the same road their device release "strategy" has taken them.

    Putting on my Jim Basille hat I'd 1st slash and burn my way through the current device line. Bought a Tour 2 years ago? I'll give you a free Tour2 and EOL your Tour. Don't want the upgrade? I'll give you a 6 month headstart and on 8/1/10 EOL the Tour. Ditto S1. Ditto 8530. Ditto Pearl. You can keep your phone, but you won't receive support or maintenance updates. 2nd, with a stable, manageable number of devices to support, I'd task my engineers with developing 2 operating systems: 1 touch, 1 non-touch. Tweaked modestly to meet carrier-specific needs, but the entire core would be the same.

    So much work to be done. The pisser is it *can* be done though, and I'm hoping it will.

    Hrm, so much for "briefly"..
    Very well put. I posted about the iPhone comparison the LAST time someone started this mindless debate. I'm glad to see there is someone else who sees another well thought out viewpoint and not just the marching orders of the cult of JRSCCivic
    01-12-10 10:50 PM
  16. chuckh0308's Avatar
    I guess its time for a droid phone...

    I can't see myself continuing to purchase RIM devices when they release incomplete operating software as official, and then abandon it. When I first got my storm, I thought it was kind-of fun. I'm a tinkerer, and I like to work on stuff. This is getting ridiculous though.
    I'm the same way. I like to tinker with things, but at some point I like to have the tinkering accomplish something...lol!
    01-12-10 11:35 PM
  17. f-castrillo's Avatar
    I don't know how much more you know, Civic, but does is that former Apple guy still in charge of User Experience at RIM? We saw the instant success that he made out of the iPhone OS, so can we safely look forward to what he could bring to the table for BlackBerry? I'm sure he would also have something to do with improving BIS/BES as a whole?

    Another thing: you mentioned RIM is focusing on devices with at least 256MB now (until newer devices with 512MB comes out). Is that App Memory you're referring to? How much RAM (the non-app memory) are the newer devices supposed to have?
    01-13-10 01:51 AM
  18. TheMisses's Avatar
    Since the os isn't going to be supported, now might be a good time to ditch the storm and go with an Iphone (just a thought).
    Ah, you mean.... NEXUS ONE! :-))
    01-13-10 05:29 AM
  19. TheMisses's Avatar
    I guess its time for a droid phone...

    I can't see myself continuing to purchase RIM devices when they release incomplete operating software as official, and then abandon it. When I first got my storm, I thought it was kind-of fun. I'm a tinkerer, and I like to work on stuff. This is getting ridiculous though.
    Exactly. THEY should develop like a good little boy. And THEY should push OSses out ONLY if they are FIT for "certification" by the carriers, thus getting rid of the whole "certification" process altogether. BOY!! Would that free up a buckload of cash for the carriers, if RIM did their own homework. Sheesj...
    01-13-10 05:32 AM
  20. TheMisses's Avatar
    I don't know how much more you know, Civic, but does is that former Apple guy still in charge of User Experience at RIM? We saw the instant success that he made out of the iPhone OS, so can we safely look forward to what he could bring to the table for BlackBerry? I'm sure he would also have something to do with improving BIS/BES as a whole?

    Another thing: you mentioned RIM is focusing on devices with at least 256MB now (until newer devices with 512MB comes out). Is that App Memory you're referring to? How much RAM (the non-app memory) are the newer devices supposed to have?
    Well, they can support ALL devices, be it at lower speeds, IF they weren't so lame as to not use the 1GB onboard memory... Or maybe they should put their money where their mouth is (was) at the time of storm presentation/release and show us the fast performance and 3d graphics they were boasting about.

    Its a flop. We had high hopes that RIM would "unlock" the monster inside the storm but I guess... it all was just a storm in a glass of water... :-P
    01-13-10 05:38 AM
  21. montage's Avatar
    If anybody is shocked or surprised by this you need to wake up a bit... You hardly get Microsoft designing Windows 7 around old machine specifications.

    If your going to run an old device... its going to get outdated. I had a Bold 9000 which i didnt want to ditch for the 9700 but now i did its worth the smaller screen for the much improved memory and battery life..
    01-13-10 05:39 AM
  22. TheMisses's Avatar
    If anybody is shocked or surprised by this you need to wake up a bit... You hardly get Microsoft designing Windows 7 around old machine specifications.

    If your going to run an old device... its going to get outdated. I had a Bold 9000 which i didnt want to ditch for the 9700 but now i did its worth the smaller screen for the much improved memory and battery life..
    Rrrrrrrright.... with the big difference that microsoft doesn't design, market or sells its own hardware...

    Bogus comparison... but I get your point. Although, MS doesn't drop an OS after just one year. Not EVEN with Windows ME!! ;-)

    RIM bad.... mkay.
    01-13-10 05:41 AM
  23. montage's Avatar
    Rrrrrrrright.... with the big difference that microsoft doesn't design, market or sells its own hardware...

    Bogus comparison... but I get your point. Although, MS doesn't drop an OS after just one year. Not EVEN with Windows ME!! ;-)

    RIM bad.... mkay.
    My point was why would they support old hardware when they dont sell them anymore. The Blackberry Bold 9000 has been discontinued in the UK for around 5 months. And anybody who wants to buy a dead horse can do.... i'll stick with my 9700 who can jump fences... even if only 3 legs make it all the way over
    01-13-10 05:48 AM
  24. snork's Avatar
    Since the os isn't going to be supported, now might be a good time to ditch the storm and go with an Iphone (just a thought).
    hah, you got jokes. no sir, i will never be purchasing an iphone, so long as apple's current business practices continue.
    01-13-10 07:46 AM
  25. The_Engine's Avatar
    That is really what we are talking about...Scalability. However, like most things the comparison to the I Phone is, excuse the Pun, not apples to apples. Yes the I Phone can run the same OS as the 3G and the 3Gs. Apple had enough vision to create an architecture for the memory that would scale. However let's look at how the Original or even 3G was at launch. Would a Storm1 with 256 mb of flash, but no EvDo been better? How about without GPS? Or maybe inoperable SMS, or no Multi Tasking? Apple gave you great hardware, but didn't release a feature complete device. Maybe on Generation 4. Storm had a much more complete feature set, but was underpowered from a memory perspective. Or to be more precise from an OS that utilize the Memory to better advantage. By the 2nd Generation of the Storm, the device is more feature complete then the I Phone, and with the 256 of memory and now Open GL support would appear not be missing much.

    Yes, I know the Browser. RIM is getting there, just as Apple is getting there on Enterprise Support and Multi Tasking.

    The Point I make is that the S2 will have a web kit browser and will support the 5.1 OS or whatever RIM has coming and it is 3G (3.5 G actually) and has the excellent messaging capabilities that you expect from RIM. Yes there are still deficiencies, but it seems that RIM is getting there in 2-3 Generations and the I Phone is still trying to deliver basic functions in their 4th gen.

    So RIM is doing well on 1 front, but definitely is behind the 8 ball on their Memory architecture and playing catch up with Hardware.

    So again each platform/Device has it shortcomings and dependent on your needs/wants you have decide which is the lesser of 2 evils.
    01-13-10 07:58 AM
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