05-27-10 05:21 PM
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  1. e150gt's Avatar
    Do people get bent out of shape about app memory because they want to have the most available memory than anyone else? I have a storm 1 and i really like my device and it does just fine. a battery pull a day is a normal thing and is not a huge deal. I played with the driod and I cannot for the life of me see why anyone would want it. The UI was terrible. A bb was like second nature to me when I first got mine and I cant see going to any device any time soon. Sure 8 terrabytes of app memory is nice, but do you really expect to use that kind of memory on apps?
    01-11-10 04:09 PM
  2. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    I wonder where this info is coming from. JRCivic, care to enlighten us? In the meantime, I'm going to cough this up to you having fun screwing with everyone.

    Of course RIM is now focusing on upcoming models, but I seriously doubt we're seeing the end of OS 5.0 development for the current devices. I don't expect to see any new features enabled, however there will continue to be maintenance updates. And carriers haven't wrapped up testing. This should be evidenced by the release of .419 by MTS. OS 5.0 is still planned for release by Telus Mobility and Bell Mobility, however, as per usual, they tend to proceed through testing rather slowly (how else do you explain Telus still being on .122).

    Sure, new feature development in OS 5.0 is likely done and its now time to move on to developing the new OSes with the new feature sets, but I don't think we're at the end of OS 5.0 yet.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    K, you know better then to ask where the info came from... I think you're breaking one of Patch's rules with this one.

    As for OS5.0 releases for the S1 (and in some cases S2), it's a deadend. There are issues and big (deep) glitches in .419 that MTS and RIM missed. RIM's started to realize that they're on a constant "fix this, break that unintentionally, damn it all" path and have decided to better focus on the upcoming OSs for the newer devices and see what happens in terms of possibly trickling the versions down. Unfortunately, they are under constant pressure from the outside to bring on a better UI experience while maintaining Enterprise Level assurance and this is becoming a heavy weight for them. We'll see how the near future unfolds, but aside from adding more users for the sake of adding users, they really have nothing improving their bottom line. In fact, it's causing network stability issues for them at the same time and we're already seeing that happen.
    01-11-10 04:38 PM
  3. littlegreenmen's Avatar
    K, you know better then to ask where the info came from... I think you're breaking one of Patch's rules with this one.

    As for OS5.0 releases for the S1 (and in some cases S2), it's a deadend. There are issues and big (deep) glitches in .419 that MTS and RIM missed. RIM's started to realize that they're on a constant "fix this, break that unintentionally, damn it all" path and have decided to better focus on the upcoming OSs for the newer devices and see what happens in terms of possibly trickling the versions down. Unfortunately, they are under constant pressure from the outside to bring on a better UI experience while maintaining Enterprise Level assurance and this is becoming a heavy weight for them. We'll see how the near future unfolds, but aside from adding more users for the sake of adding users, they really have nothing improving their bottom line. In fact, it's causing network stability issues for them at the same time and we're already seeing that happen.
    Absolutely correct. DEADEND!!!!
    01-11-10 04:45 PM
  4. S3QU3NC3's Avatar
    K, you know better then to ask where the info came from... I think you're breaking one of Patch's rules with this one.

    As for OS5.0 releases for the S1 (and in some cases S2), it's a deadend. There are issues and big (deep) glitches in .419 that MTS and RIM missed. RIM's started to realize that they're on a constant "fix this, break that unintentionally, damn it all" path and have decided to better focus on the upcoming OSs for the newer devices and see what happens in terms of possibly trickling the versions down. Unfortunately, they are under constant pressure from the outside to bring on a better UI experience while maintaining Enterprise Level assurance and this is becoming a heavy weight for them. We'll see how the near future unfolds, but aside from adding more users for the sake of adding users, they really have nothing improving their bottom line. In fact, it's causing network stability issues for them at the same time and we're already seeing that happen.
    But how could a company so big not see this coming? and instead of the strategy of "lets see if it works", why didnt they adjust to the change and make an end product that the consumers would like and use? no matter if they knew it was going to be a deadend product. For the potential of losing the customer?? lol
    01-11-10 05:14 PM
  5. tobleron's Avatar
    This really does not supprise me. This really is the way of life for comsumer electronics. The old are phased out so the R&D teams can spend more effort on the latest and greatest. We see this all the time in the computer world.
    +100..No doubt about it!I remember when i was a student taking up Computer programming...about O/S's that cannot be handle by 750MHZ cpu/64MB Ram...(to make story short)...then after 1 to 2 yrs. you have to change another Comp....wellll....thats what happening today.Microsoft are u there,do u hear me now?
    01-11-10 08:06 PM
  6. hagerspider's Avatar
    JRSCCivic98------Just now found this thread, and have read all the info. Thanks for the heads up on this new information. I have enjoyed the storm 9530 for several months now, and am running .419. With all of the new phones coming out, I am about ready for something different anyway. I really like the new HTC HD2, but it appears to be going to T-Mobile. Looking for one of the new larger screen phones that I can use on Verizon. I may also be going back to a windows based phone, since the people at Sling aren't too interested in supporting android. Thanks again JRSCCivic98!!
    01-11-10 08:13 PM
  7. jlsparks's Avatar
    As always, I have nothing but respect for JRS. Her technical and operational knowledge surpass 99.5% of CB members (myself included); she's extraordinarily adept at identifying flaws in RIM's firmware (or, at a minimum, relaying those flaws to CB); and she has access to information I don't.

    That said, I take away the positive from your analysis. Specifically, that RIM is focusing on designing and developing for 512K+ devices. Broadly speaking this is a very, very, very good thing. To complain about lack of development on one hand, and complain about new development on the other, doesn't leave much wiggle room for you. I know you're really trying to be helpful, to share knowledge, and to inform, but to those (many) who don't have the mildest grasp on the inner working of tech a thread like this can have the unanticipated effect of creating fear, loathing, and misunderstanding.

    Last week RIM reiterated its collaborative efforts with carriers to push out 5.0 to every device that can handle it. I'm wondering what's materially changed during the past week that would contradict RIM's restatement of their prior assertions.

    For me it's sort of a Moore's Law type of situation, coupled with planned obsolescence. That is, app memory on smartphones has fairly closely followed Moore's Law, just as digital camera tech has, just as data storage tech has, et cetera. But, as with Moore's, you can't carry exponentials out forever. In smartphones though we're no where close to approaching the limits under Moore's. Therefore, it's only natural for not only RIM, but *all* manufacturers, to be 18-24 months ahead of release, at a minimum. No doubt there are 1MB+ RIM devices floating around in Waterloo. It seems like this is a perfect time for RIM to do what I've begged (as if I have any pull ); namely, cut the losers and the fat from the global product line. Trim to 3-4 hard kb and 2 TS models. Do so over the next 12 months and you allow breathing room to accomplish everything you've said you're going to do, plus you'll decrease the current level of device/OS fragmentation, plus you'll make life easier for your own and the carriers' ccserv departments, plus you'll have fewer pissed off customers, since so many replace their handsets annually (or more quickly) now.
    /monologue
    Last edited by jlsparks; 01-11-10 at 09:23 PM.
    01-11-10 09:20 PM
  8. Blacklatino's Avatar
    @Civic
    Thanks for posting the information.
    01-11-10 09:50 PM
  9. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    As always, I have nothing but respect for JRS. Her technical and operational knowledge surpass 99.5% of CB members (myself included); she's extraordinarily adept at identifying flaws in RIM's firmware (or, at a minimum, relaying those flaws to CB); and she has access to information I don't.

    That said, I take away the positive from your analysis. Specifically, that RIM is focusing on designing and developing for 512K+ devices. Broadly speaking this is a very, very, very good thing. To complain about lack of development on one hand, and complain about new development on the other, doesn't leave much wiggle room for you. I know you're really trying to be helpful, to share knowledge, and to inform, but to those (many) who don't have the mildest grasp on the inner working of tech a thread like this can have the unanticipated effect of creating fear, loathing, and misunderstanding.

    Last week RIM reiterated its collaborative efforts with carriers to push out 5.0 to every device that can handle it. I'm wondering what's materially changed during the past week that would contradict RIM's restatement of their prior assertions.

    For me it's sort of a Moore's Law type of situation, coupled with planned obsolescence. That is, app memory on smartphones has fairly closely followed Moore's Law, just as digital camera tech has, just as data storage tech has, et cetera. But, as with Moore's, you can't carry exponentials out forever. In smartphones though we're no where close to approaching the limits under Moore's. Therefore, it's only natural for not only RIM, but *all* manufacturers, to be 18-24 months ahead of release, at a minimum. No doubt there are 1MB+ RIM devices floating around in Waterloo. It seems like this is a perfect time for RIM to do what I've begged (as if I have any pull ); namely, cut the losers and the fat from the global product line. Trim to 3-4 hard kb and 2 TS models. Do so over the next 12 months and you allow breathing room to accomplish everything you've said you're going to do, plus you'll decrease the current level of device/OS fragmentation, plus you'll make life easier for your own and the carriers' ccserv departments, plus you'll have fewer pissed off customers, since so many replace their handsets annually (or more quickly) now.
    /monologue
    Yeah, I think you made a few "size" mistakes there jl.

    Also, NOT all smartphone makers are following the same design principals of "just enough memory" to fit today's needs. Apple made the iPhone a couple of years ago with tons of app memory (not enough RAM, but TONS of app memory). They haven't changed that design principal since then and each year they just double it up for even more. This hasn't deterred people from buying the new models and it won't anytime soon, so the argument of "People won't buy the next phone if their current one is stacked" is just marketing bullisht and nothing more. Don't kid yourselves, the OP is not a scare tactic... RIM has released over 674 builds of OS5 for the Storm1/2... so far, all are flawed, and there's no end in sight for this. The problem is at the core... a core which RIM is working frantically to try and reengineer. The next 6-8 months will show you if they succeed or fail.

    Pass me the low fat popcorn please...


    p.s.
    If all you got from the OP was just that "memory is an issue" you totally missed the point of it. The whole memory info was used to give you guys an idea of where things are going and why. Call it a "we shot ourselves in the foot" moment for RIM.
    Last edited by JRSCCivic98; 01-11-10 at 10:00 PM.
    01-11-10 09:58 PM
  10. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    +100..No doubt about it!I remember when i was a student taking up Computer programming...about O/S's that cannot be handle by 750MHZ cpu/64MB Ram...(to make story short)...then after 1 to 2 yrs. you have to change another Comp....wellll....thats what happening today.Microsoft are u there,do u hear me now?
    I'm running W7 Ultimate on a 4 year old laptop and it's running tip top. No, I didn't cheap out on the hardware, so I don't have to upgrade every year to two years. That's the secret...

    RIM on the other hand seems to be under the understanding that giving us hardware that's very close to the $499 laptops of 2 years ago labled "Vista Ready" which comprised of Celeron based procs with Integrated/Shared Memory Video motherboards. Enjoy your POS BB model.... you'll be back in a year for the next model which may or may not run OpenGL on it.
    Last edited by JRSCCivic98; 01-11-10 at 10:05 PM.
    01-11-10 10:02 PM
  11. MonsterInaBox's Avatar
    I fail to see how this product cycle is hugely different from any other cell phone manufacturer. And I say hugely because there will always be discrepancies. It seems to me that some people on this forum seem to think that the laws of capitalism don't work in the cell phone industry. What does everyone expect? RIM is a business and they are operating like one.

    This forum would be a lot less crowded if everyone voted with their wallet instead of just complaining.
    01-12-10 12:21 AM
  12. janos_storm's Avatar
    we'd need a 4.7.0.... development, I was struggling with the 5.0. versions all had some annoying bugs. Tried all, but finally went back to 4.7.0.167.
    01-12-10 12:27 AM
  13. f-castrillo's Avatar
    Sad to hear, but at least they got the Storm 9530 working to a pretty good level (from my perspective).

    I do, however, envy other OS platforms (iPhone, Android, etc.) because more developers flock to them for ease of programmability. As a result, their 3rd party apps are generally nicer looking and efficient.

    Not to say that BlackBerry's 3rd party app lineup sucks, I have all the apps I need to satisfy my tech hunger. But devs having OpenGL support, as well as the OS utilizing OpenGL, would probably make some nice eye candy for the BlackBerry OS.

    I'm hoping that whatever RIM is working on for the next-gen BlackBerry devices will blow away previous OSes in terms of usability, functionality, appearance, and reliability. And I hope that whatever they're doing to the OS will make it more developer friendly so we can get a mass influx of 3rd party apps. The Storm still has me hooked, I hope the Storm3 will keep my faith
    01-12-10 12:58 AM
  14. Krypto's Avatar
    I'm running W7 Ultimate on a 4 year old laptop and it's running tip top. No, I didn't cheap out on the hardware, so I don't have to upgrade every year to two years. That's the secret...
    Now that's the truth... it never ceases to amaze me how many people buy cheap and then wonder why their equipment doesn't work right even 2 years later. I'm one of those who likes to upgrade my tech every two years because I like having the newest and greatest, but then I pass them on to family/friends who continue to use them for the next 2-3 years with no problems because they were good quality to start with (until I pass along the next version ).

    I still doubt that we're going to see the end of OS development for the Storm/Storm2/Tour and all the others, but I will agree that the main focus has shifted, and it's very unlikely that we'll continue to see leaks and OS releases as fast as we did in the past. My guess is that the development team for these devices has dropped considerably in size, but there will still be developers that keep working.

    P.S. Civic, I ask for references because you could be pulling stuff from out of thin air just to see people's responses (sarcasm happens regularly on the forum, even from you), or you could be hearing things from one person, who heard it from another person, who heard it from another person, etc. and the story has changed from the original story, or you could be getting it from someone who actually does know. And even if you are getting the info from someone within RIM, unless they are part of the development team that's being shifted around... it's a big company and those in one department don't necessarily know what's happening in other departments (although they may hear rumors which can often be false). Sorry for the skepticism, but I hope you understand. I'm just one of those who prefers proof for these sorts of things (blame it on the scientist in me).
    01-12-10 01:00 AM
  15. howarmat's Avatar
    we'd need a 4.7.0.... development, I was struggling with the 5.0. versions all had some annoying bugs. Tried all, but finally went back to 4.7.0.167.
    really that bad?? and you actually gave all the OS 5 releases a shot?
    01-12-10 01:16 AM
  16. chuckh0308's Avatar
    we'd need a 4.7.0.... development, I was struggling with the 5.0. versions all had some annoying bugs. Tried all, but finally went back to 4.7.0.167.
    Did you try .419? It's not really "done" but it's the best we've gotten and it supposedly plays well with T-mo...
    01-12-10 01:47 AM
  17. chuckh0308's Avatar
    I'm running W7 Ultimate on a 4 year old laptop and it's running tip top. No, I didn't cheap out on the hardware, so I don't have to upgrade every year to two years. That's the secret...

    RIM on the other hand seems to be under the understanding that giving us hardware that's very close to the $499 laptops of 2 years ago labled "Vista Ready" which comprised of Celeron based procs with Integrated/Shared Memory Video motherboards. Enjoy your POS BB model.... you'll be back in a year for the next model which may or may not run OpenGL on it.
    Glad I'm not the only one who likes my laptops loaded so I can use them for a few years! For what I paid for the current one I better get at least 3 more years out of it...lol!
    01-12-10 01:49 AM
  18. howarmat's Avatar
    lol, i build my laptops and desktops to the point of complete overkill. **** i got 12 gigs of RAM in my desktop because the motherboard could handle it....i would put 24 in there but its like $1000 for 24 gigs lol

    and my dell laptop was maxed out to for no reason really either than i just have to have the best.....i spend to much money on technology crap
    01-12-10 02:01 AM
  19. janos_storm's Avatar
    really that bad?? and you actually gave all the OS 5 releases a shot?
    yes, I did. as much I could follow.
    most issues I had with random re-starts and very bad voice quality with the car's hands-free set.
    01-12-10 07:17 AM
  20. jusdis's Avatar
    On and on and on. go buy a different phone already. How did RIM start out again? Business phones right? High security for corporate use? Email....perfect for businesses and execs on the go? When was the last time you saw a CEO using his flashlight app? Or playing a virtual piano?
    As a normal everyday conSumer with plenty of free time to dink around and play games on a BLACKBERRY; or say use the above mentioned "flashlight" to find their drunken way through a college dorm, it would be understOod why you need 15 million Terabytes just for apps. But for business purposes is it really that necessary?
    I ask again....What were the original intentions and focus of RIM? Quit complaining about what YOU want it to do?
    The bottom line is you followed the latest "trend" and now you realize that that trend just wasn't for you. You were left disappointed and now you're trying to blame RIM.
    Consider this.....if you were going to buy a car for your family of 8 would you buy a two door coup because everyone else is? Then ***** at the manufacturer because you can't get everyone in it without it being weighed down and slow?

    Think about it like that.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-12-10 08:56 AM
  21. orgonebox's Avatar
    I read through this thread last night with a mix of disappointment and so-it-goes. Then today I was reading Bruce Sterling's state-of-the-world posts linked through boingboing, and he quoted Stewart Brand.

    "Today’s bleeding-edge technology is tomorrow’s broken legacy system.
    Commercial software is almost always written in enormous haste, at
    ever- accelerating market velocity; it can foresee an 'upgrade path' to
    next year’s version, but decades are outside its scope. And societies
    live by decades, civilizations by centuries..."

    Participation in the electronic device world always entails some capitulation towards your chosen short-and-curlies yanker and their lack of vision towards the future. How many of us have a graveyard drawer of gadgets past due?

    EDIT: Just realized that in some regard, we as the current generation (in smartphone iterations, not human) have been preemptively consigned to RIM's gadget graveyard with regard to our identity-link to the company as device pins, ESNs, etc. Obviously, our value is defined in terms of our willingness to buy the next device. If the S2 gets the promised webkit browser, full range of open GL applications, and adobe flash touted on the early specifications of the S3, will we still salivate over and purchase the S3? Or do we have to be shown the empty hole and tombstone as the only alternative to anticipated enhancement?
    Last edited by orgonebox; 01-12-10 at 09:18 AM.
    01-12-10 09:07 AM
  22. Leafan's Avatar
    Exactly why I am definitely going on to the Iphone 3Gs . My wife has one and she. Can go through

    6 pages no her browser before I can load the first. I honestly thought I would be happy with my new
    Storm. But watching her on that Iphone...... I feel embarrassed loading my weak browser.

    I keep hearing the major benefit of a BERRY is the instant email...... The Iphone 3Gs has at most a
    15min delay.... Wow do we really need that email this second?. And honestly at the sacrifice of
    everything else we should expect for our smartphone.

    Sorry RIM but the lack of development has cost you a one time loyal BB user.

    512MB models? You mean there's going to be a Bold3, Tour3, Storm3 coming out by the end of this year? It's to be expected eventually, but this is insane.

    Can it, RIM. Build a phone that works and get your software in shape. This is embarrassing and I wonder how many RETAINED customers you will have...many move to the BB and become addicted...then they see there are silly limitations -

    A 2MB app is huge. Battery pulls and memory loss. ****tiest browser on smartphones today. And YET -

    they keep pumping out hardware upgrades. Don't you think the consumer users are more likely to move to Android or a possible Verizon iPhone when they realize how unreliable BB's have become?

    I thought upgrading everyone to trackpads, WiFi, increased memory and 5.0 would be enough for a little while. Look like they want to keep confusing everyone with 9730s, 9750s, 9800s, and so on. And they don't LISTEN because things are going so well with new converts to smartphones who don't get it..
    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-12-10 09:23 AM
  23. jetman1287's Avatar
    I read through this thread last night with a mix of disappointment and so-it-goes. Then today I was reading Bruce Sterling's state-of-the-world posts linked through boingboing, and he quoted Stewart Brand.

    "Today’s bleeding-edge technology is tomorrow’s broken legacy system.
    Commercial software is almost always written in enormous haste, at
    ever- accelerating market velocity; it can foresee an 'upgrade path' to
    next year’s version, but decades are outside its scope. And societies
    live by decades, civilizations by centuries..."

    Participation in the electronic device world always entails some capitulation towards your chosen short-and-curlies yanker and their lack of vision towards the future. How many of us have a graveyard drawer of gadgets past due?

    EDIT: Just realized that in some regard, we as the current generation (in smartphone iterations, not human) have been preemptively consigned to RIM's gadget graveyard with regard to our identity-link to the company as device pins, ESNs, etc. Obviously, our value is defined in terms of our willingness to buy the next device. If the S2 gets the promised webkit browser, full range of open GL applications, and adobe flash touted on the early specifications of the S3, will we still salivate over and purchase the S3? Or do we have to be shown the empty hole and tombstone as the only alternative to anticipated enhancement?
    I think there is always going to be someone willing to switch over just for a new name...honestly the S2 doesn't offer too much over the S1. I just thought a hardware upgrade would represent SIGNIFICANT improvements. Look at Tour1 vs. Tour2 -- a trackpad and WiFi? Why not release that in the Tour1?

    Sure...it is their right to release as many as they want but that's got to mess with people -

    And then maybe Tour1 doesn't have OpenGL support, Tour2 does, or the Tour1 gets an update but Tour2 doesn't, and everyone just gets effing confused, including developers. This doesn't help RIM.
    01-12-10 09:51 AM
  24. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    On and on and on. go buy a different phone already. How did RIM start out again? Business phones right? High security for corporate use? Email....perfect for businesses and execs on the go? When was the last time you saw a CEO using his flashlight app? Or playing a virtual piano?
    As a normal everyday conSumer with plenty of free time to dink around and play games on a BLACKBERRY; or say use the above mentioned "flashlight" to find their drunken way through a college dorm, it would be understOod why you need 15 million Terabytes just for apps. But for business purposes is it really that necessary?
    I ask again....What were the original intentions and focus of RIM? Quit complaining about what YOU want it to do?
    The bottom line is you followed the latest "trend" and now you realize that that trend just wasn't for you. You were left disappointed and now you're trying to blame RIM.
    Consider this.....if you were going to buy a car for your family of 8 would you buy a two door coup because everyone else is? Then ***** at the manufacturer because you can't get everyone in it without it being weighed down and slow?

    Think about it like that.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Yep, you're ignorant.

    It's not about what it can't do that's not native to itself as what it was originally conceptualized as (i.e. a business phone model). It can't even do that right. It's not what's missing out of the UI, but what bugs it's still plagued with. Give me a break man... you're too blinded to realize the truth here.


    It amazes me how many people in this thread that have Telus as a carrier are the ones making excuses and coming to RIM's rescue... gee, hey RIM's employees! GTFO! lol
    01-12-10 10:07 AM
  25. jusdis's Avatar
    I keep hearing the major benefit of a BERRY is the instant email...... The Iphone 3Gs has at most a
    15min delay.... Wow do we really need that email this second?. And honestly at the sacrifice of
    everything else we should expect for our smartphone.

    Sorry RIM but the lack of development has cost you a one time loyal BB user.



    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

    Sorry bud....I breed Pitbulls. back when i first started out I didnt have a Blackberry. there were numerous times I would arrive home after work, check my email, and find emails from people looking to buy requesting pictures or info or whatsoever. I call them back and "oh its ok I found another breeder and im already going with them.

    So YES I absolutely MUST be able to recieve my emails on the go. And instantly. In 15 minutes I personally can do a Google search and find a million and one OTHER breeders.

    I personally loose 3500-5000 each time I lose a sale. Now think about corporate and make those figures in the millions.

    Business.....or Personal.... Dont buy a phone directed towards business use if you plan on using it for more than that. Would you go out and buy big winter boots to go to the beach. Everything has its purpose and use. Stop following trends and figure out what works best for YOU. Its your money...spend it wisely. Be a smart consumer.

    How can you blame RIM for making a phone with low App memory? Is it RIM's fault that you bought it and decided to try and load the whole app world onto it? lol I mean seriously. The specs are on the friggin box!!!

    Do your research people before you make purchases. Its not hard to find out if something isnt for you BEFORE you waste money on it....just do your research first
    01-12-10 10:09 AM
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