[intense55]

but if your main focus is storing every single record on your calendar, then i suggest another device for you. blackberry will not do that job.

BS there buddy. I said it before and i'll say it again, it's called the "STORM 2". I have the experience to say it does the job. Do you?

Read that last sentence carefully.

BTW, i checked DM last night. My 13000 calendar entries take up 2.6 MB. My 200 emails take up 3.7MB. As discussed with RIM last April, there is no limitation on the number of calendar entries and 2.6MB does not seem like a lot of space.

[intense55]

I'm living in the real world. Where you at?

Citing what a Palm can do has no real real bearing on what Blackberries do. It doesn't change how a Blackberry works. Now that its been explained to you, you still don't want to accept how they work.

Let us know what RIM says... LOL

I won't accept how the Storm 1 works either, becuase my Storm 2 doesn't delete my entries without warning.

A Storm 2 is a BB, isn't it genius?

[wmscottmc]

I dont know what percentage of Storm users are personal vs business users. But I have to disagree with Patches and others that we shouldnt expect the device to store calendar, memo's, ect securely. If the average user knew this, I doubt that anybody would buy the Storm. I do all of my work on the Storm, and only sync as a way of backing up my data. If I couldnt trust that my data was safe, I would not use this phone.

Until this thread I dont remember anybody from VW or BB ever implying that my personal data on the Storm could be automatically deleted at any time, just because the phone decided it needs more memory.

Im still not even convinced this is happening (low memory means purged data), but if it is happening, and BB users just accept it as the way the BB's work, I think that the android phones will be very sucessfull.

Like I said before, the day that I lose 1 calendar entry, or memo, or contact, or task, is the day I go test drive a Droid.

[Dubkid420]

All phones have a limit somewhere along the line. If you find yourself exceeding those limits on a Storm, I am willing to bet you will soon find out what they are on a DROID or any other phone you choose. Just a thought.

[wmscottmc]

All phones have a limit somewhere along the line. If you find yourself exceeding those limits on a Storm, I am willing to bet you will soon find out what they are on a DROID or any other phone you choose. Just a thought.

Having a limit on storage space is one thing, randomly deleting data is another. Ive never owned a pc, phone, laptop...... that just deleted stuff on its own. The issue that is being discussed here is not a limit on storage space. Its an issue where application memory slowly leaks, and so in order to keep running apps, the device supposedly starts deleting data. Imagine if you had a laptop with tons of space on it, but memory got low while running a bunch of apps, so Windows just started deleting your spreadsheets, pictures, documents, and other important saved files. Nobody would just accept this as the way Windows works.

I dont believe that there is an issue like this on the Storm, but if there is I am surprised at how many users dont seem to mind. I hope you all have good current backups, or just use the Storm as a phone.

[anon202304]

I dont believe that there is an issue like this on the Storm, but if there is I am surprised at how many users dont seem to mind. I hope you all have good current backups, or just use the Storm as a phone.

Back when I had the Pearl this would happen to me every so often. It was annoying but I dealt with it. Realized that I need to rethink how my data is stored and moved on.

I won't accept how the Storm 1 works either, becuase my Storm 2 doesn't delete my entries without warning.

Fixed it for you: "...my Storm 2 doesn't delete my entries without warning, yet."

Amend your habits and you'll be fine. Or don't and in time you'll be creating the same thread in the Storm 2 message board.

[wmscottmc]

pvl,
What do you mean by "rethink how the data is stored"?

Do you just assume that any contact, task or appointment entered on the Storm could be lost at any time, and you are ok with this?

[jeffh]

In the classic BlackBerry model (pre-Storm), SMS messages, phone logs, and old calendar appointments (in that order) were deleted when free memory got too low for the device to function. Tasks and contacts were never deleted. Normally users noticed the problem when their text messages started disappearing before their eyes, sometimes literally as soon as they arrived.

[Rooster99]

I'm living in the real world. Where you at?

Citing what a Palm can do has no real real bearing on what Blackberries do. It doesn't change how a Blackberry works. Now that its been explained to you, you still don't want to accept how they work.

Let us know what RIM says... LOL

Scionic, we may just have a misunderstanding.

1) Your words indicated that asking for ALL Calendar entries to be synced to a mobile device (note : any mobile device) was both extreme and unreasonable. This I disagree with, and as supporting reasons I've shown both why from a user perspective this would be desired and that other devices could do it.

2) What may be the case is that you're saying since it's now known that Berries can't do it, that asking them to is unreasonable.

If #1 is the case, then we just have to agree to disagree.

If #2 is the case, if at the end of the day it's proven (ie - RIM says) that Berries can't do it then I agree continuing to ask them to would be extremely unreasonable.

However, I hope you can understand my surprise that this would be the case, given how important this would be for a business user and that RIM is touted as "THE" device for the business user. And I have to apologize that my usual reaction when something surprises me like that is to go "Come on - you've GOT to be kidding me!" and prod it with a stick to see what I've misunderstood.

- R.

[Rooster99]

okay, i'm stripping the device function down to bare tacks. RIM does email, everything else is afterthought. the fact that a calendar even exists is due to how companies integrate the calendar and contacts with email. but the bread and butter is all in email. that's where they live and die. the phone is meant to be an extension of your inbox, not a storage unit for everything you have. it might be your expectation, but that's not the reality of what the phone is "designed for"....just like you say that the feature exist, and a certain level of function or support is expected, the same can go for every other function on the phone. but all of the functions i use my phone for are severely broken. starting with memory leaks, plain text email links are broken, double databases for sms and phone logs so if you clear one they still show up in the other....i can go on and on. but if your main focus is storing every single record on your calendar, then i suggest another device for you. blackberry will not do that job.

Wow patches - if this is the case, then all of RIM's marketing is false. It's being touted as THE device for business and now consumer users, yet all it does well - scratch that, properly - is email.

Your message is a searing indictment of Berry capabilities, and would shock most users I think. Maybe not experienced ones, but certainly new ones.

Again, wow.

- R.

[Rooster99]

I dont know what percentage of Storm users are personal vs business users. But I have to disagree with Patches and others that we shouldnt expect the device to store calendar, memo's, ect securely. If the average user knew this, I doubt that anybody would buy the Storm. I do all of my work on the Storm, and only sync as a way of backing up my data. If I couldnt trust that my data was safe, I would not use this phone.

Until this thread I dont remember anybody from VW or BB ever implying that my personal data on the Storm could be automatically deleted at any time, just because the phone decided it needs more memory.

Im still not even convinced this is happening (low memory means purged data), but if it is happening, and BB users just accept it as the way the BB's work, I think that the android phones will be very sucessfull.

Like I said before, the day that I lose 1 calendar entry, or memo, or contact, or task, is the day I go test drive a Droid.

wmscottmc, this is very well put. The only revision I would make is that the discussion has now become about whether Berries randomly purge user data, not just if the specific cause is low memory.

As you seem to imply in your email, the key issue is whether data is being lost. That's certainly it for me, and I completely agree with your last sentence.

- R.

[Rooster99]

All phones have a limit somewhere along the line. If you find yourself exceeding those limits on a Storm, I am willing to bet you will soon find out what they are on a DROID or any other phone you choose. Just a thought.

Dubkid, you're still not getting it.

Every device has limitations - I don't think anyone here is naive enough to believe other wise. The issue is how those are handled.

I understand the strengths of Berries - that's why I chose to move to them from the Palm world. And I did my research, including spending a lot of time here. I didn't just speak to a retail store clerk with minimal real knowledge.

If the information had been clearly and (relatively) easily available regarding a limitation on the length of time Calendar entries are stored for I would have looked at my situation and made a decision as to whether I could work within that limitation and figured out how to make it work. I have no problem with that - our core application here at work runs on a database with a specific limitation on the number of stored images it can handle. I understand that, feel we can work within it, and monitor how closely we get. That's a reasonable way to work, and I accept my responsibilities as the product purchaser. I have to make an informed purchase and work within the limitations I'm advised of.

I would of course have expected that with such a known issue there would be built in warnings that this limitation was being approached so I could head off any issues.

Unfortunately :

1) This is a pretty key issue for business users, it seems well known among experienced Berry users, and yet nowhere, until I happened across this thread, has that knowledge been made available.

2) There's no warning it's going to happen - it seems that data just "disappears" and I can't live with that

Those are the issues, my friend. Not that there are limitations, but how this one is being handled.

- R.

[Rooster99]

Back when I had the Pearl this would happen to me every so often. It was annoying but I dealt with it. Realized that I need to rethink how my data is stored and moved on.



Fixed it for you: "...my Storm 2 doesn't delete my entries without warning, yet."

Amend your habits and you'll be fine. Or don't and in time you'll be creating the same thread in the Storm 2 message board.

pvliii, I think what you're saying is that you accepted the limitations of the device. To you it was simply "annoying".

intense55 and I, because we work differently from you, find it more than "annoying". He, because of the law, and I, because of how I work, find it catastrophic. You're not wrong, we're not wrong - we're just different.

I will add to that, that my software background makes me shocked there isn't a warning flag that pops up well before any limitations are neared and gives users time to trim their data so it remains within acceptable limits. Most well behaved business software does this.

- R.

[Rooster99]

In the classic BlackBerry model (pre-Storm), SMS messages, phone logs, and old calendar appointments (in that order) were deleted when free memory got too low for the device to function. Tasks and contacts were never deleted. Normally users noticed the problem when their text messages started disappearing before their eyes, sometimes literally as soon as they arrived.

Thanks for the info, JeffH.

Is there anywhere this is documented? Ideally in a RIM white paper or something else? It will make working through the support levels within Telus so much faster and easier!

TIA - R.

And PS - Many thinks for directing me to this thread. I've learned a lot, and appreciate knowing I'm not alone in having this problem.

[patches152]

Thanks for the info, JeffH.

Is there anywhere this is documented? Ideally in a RIM white paper or something else? It will make working through the support levels within Telus so much faster and easier!

TIA - R.

And PS - Many thinks for directing me to this thread. I've learned a lot, and appreciate knowing I'm not alone in having this problem.

its called "LMM" or low memory manager. its built into the OS, but hasn't been around on any OS 4.7 or higher. if you google search, most of the hits will refer to pearl handsets with this issue, since the pearl has hardly any app memory. but if you go to blackberry's website, and go to support, and search for "low memory manager' or just "LMM" it'll come back.

[Qazme]

Wow 20 apps running at the same time for what? With 5.0 and about 5-6 running programs I normally stay within 35-42mb of memory free and the phone runs fine. The lowest usage I have ever seen on my Storm was 13mb but that was heavy usage over 14 days without a reset.

I agree it is a problem but when the phone is used with no third party themes or apps it's pretty stable on my end, with only the apps I need and heavy usage it seems the same. When I start running into problems is when I want to run a bunch of garbage at the same time under heavy usage, and no phone will hold up to that.

[wmscottmc]

Wow 20 apps running at the same time for what? With 5.0 and about 5-6 running programs I normally stay within 35-42mb of memory free and the phone runs fine. The lowest usage I have ever seen on my Storm was 13mb but that was heavy usage over 14 days without a reset.

I agree it is a problem but when the phone is used with no third party themes or apps it's pretty stable on my end, with only the apps I need and heavy usage it seems the same. When I start running into problems is when I want to run a bunch of garbage at the same time under heavy usage, and no phone will hold up to that.

True that no device may hold up to running 20 apps, but the point of this thread is that (according to some users) when the Storm starts running out app memory the phone will start deleting personal data. And no phone should do that.

The problem being discussed isnt low memory, its lost data.

(Maybe a warning to the user to close some apps, or even automatically closing some apps, or even rebooting. Anything is better that purging important data.)

[Qazme]

Well I believe RIMs comeback would be, "The phone has a preset limit of how much memory it can use, 3rd party apps aren't supported, so if you weren't running them you wouldn't lose data."

However I do agree with the phone shouldn't be deleting information, it seems like it should give you a low memory warning and then reboot to free up some memory.

[wmscottmc]

Well I believe RIMs comeback would be, "The phone has a preset limit of how much memory it can use, 3rd party apps aren't supported, so if you weren't running them you wouldn't lose data."

However I do agree with the phone shouldn't be deleting information, it seems like it should give you a low memory warning and then reboot to free up some memory.

We are kind of getting off track here, but since when are 3rd party apps NOT supported on this phone? And where is the warning that installing any 3rd party app will cause potential data loss?

[patches152]

so for those who are impacted with the data loss, have you check ALL databases via options>status>bb button>view database sizes and check to see if anything sticks out as larger than average? just something you should check on, i know rooster talked about calendar database size....but what about the rest?

i'm concerned that even though the calendar database isn't that big, the culmination of everything, plus memory leak could be the culprit. but from documents that i've read, the phone should just crash and reboot, or lag severely, not delete PIM. LMM has been removed since the curve, so idk what else to tell you. might just be a glitch or something, but it's definately NOT BY DESIGN to delete user info anymore. that was in the training and stuff while it was still in testing, and nothing has changed on that front since day 1. i've seen every change log you can think of, and not one entry mentioned deleting PIM or LMM in any way, shape or fashion.

[Qazme]

We are kind of getting off track here, but since when are 3rd party apps NOT supported on this phone? And where is the warning that installing any 3rd party app will cause potential data loss?

Call RIM ask for support for a 3rd party app.......there is a difference between RIM suppling SDK's for people to write programs that WORK with the phone and them SUPPORTING those apps.

3rd party apps are supported by the people who write them, not the phone manufacturer. The warning is in a few apps, you know if you take the time to read the EULA's of the apps you are installing. The whole part about "Not liable for data loss, damage to equipment" etc etc etc.

/off topic

[Rooster99]

Hi patches - I wouldn't know if this is unusual or not, but my Calendar database is 1368/4668K. Total size (all databases?) is 1713.1K. "RMS" Databases are 442.5K (don't know what those are) and Tasks are 277.4K. Those are the largest. Not sure why there are 2 numbers for Calendar but that's what it shows. Is this "normal"? Thanks for showing me this trick BTW.

Also, I seem to recall that you offered to assist if anyone had memory leaks. I seem to cycle from 24MB free down to 12 in about 2 days with little use. If you have any suggestions let me know here or feel free to PM me.

Thanks again for your help.

- R.

[patches152]

Shoot me an email if you want to. its easier that way. [email protected]

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[jeffh]

Hi patches - I wouldn't know if this is unusual or not, but my Calendar database is 1368/4668K. Total size (all databases?) is 1713.1K. "RMS" Databases are 442.5K (don't know what those are) and Tasks are 277.4K. Those are the largest. Not sure why there are 2 numbers for Calendar but that's what it shows...
- R.

In the calendar entry, the first number is the number of calendar entries and the second is the size of the database.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[patches152]

http://forums.crackberry.com/f33/rms-databases-14313/

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com