11-18-19 06:07 PM
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  1. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I'm seeing plenty of binary viewpoints on this thread. Is reason going out of fashion?

    •<[{ BlackBerry Passport SE }]>•
    How so?
    11-14-19 06:35 PM
  2. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    What's REALLY annoying about BB10 is that you HAVE to wipe the device in order to remove the BBID from the phone, which of course in the process would wipe countless hours worth of setting up the right apk's, etc.

    On Android, just go into Settings -> Accounts and delete the Google account and the device is free.
    It's a feature, not a bug. It ties the device to a single accountable individual, which is what corporate IT managers wanted. When used properly with endpoint management, even wiping the phone won't allow you to change the BBID. That's the whole point.

    Or just don't use BBID, BBM, BlackBerry World, etc.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    app_Developer likes this.
    11-14-19 07:05 PM
  3. the_boon's Avatar
    It's a feature, not a bug. It ties the device to a single accountable individual, which is what corporate IT managers wanted. When used properly with endpoint management, even wiping the phone won't allow you to change the BBID. That's the whole point.

    Or just don't use BBID, BBM, BlackBerry World, etc.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    And why shouldnt I be able to remove the BBID without wiping the device if I'm in the intended user?

    No excuse.
    11-14-19 08:34 PM
  4. conite's Avatar
    And why shouldnt I be able to remove the BBID without wiping the device if I'm in the intended user?

    No excuse.
    Because with BBOS and BB10, BBID was tied to the specific device hardware (based on PIN).

    BBID then evolved to become more than that, but it was too late to extricate from those legacy platforms.
    Last edited by conite; 11-14-19 at 09:41 PM.
    11-14-19 08:49 PM
  5. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    And why shouldnt I be able to remove the BBID without wiping the device if I'm in the intended user?

    No excuse.
    For the same reason you can't buy a four-door Corvette. That's not how it was designed. Seriously, it's a feature that works exactly as it was intended to, whether you like it or not.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    11-14-19 09:38 PM
  6. the_boon's Avatar
    For the same reason you can't buy a four-door Corvette. That's not how it was designed. Seriously, it's a feature that works exactly as it was intended to, whether you like it or not.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    Still not convinced.

    Again, why should I need to wipe my device and lose everything in order to remove the BBID, instead of just removing it from the settings (after entering my PIN and BBID password, of course)
    11-14-19 10:17 PM
  7. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Still not convinced.

    Again, why should I need to wipe my device and lose everything in order to remove the BBID, instead of just removing it from the settings (after entering my PIN and BBID password, of course)
    Because the BBID is the "authorized user" of the phone, not just an account like with Android. If the phone is assigned to a new user, there must be a guarantee that all data has been removed.

    It's a fundamentally different security model than Android, and, in my opinion, a much better one.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    11-14-19 10:21 PM
  8. Thud Hardsmack's Avatar
    Because the BBID is the "authorized user" of the phone, not just an account like with Android. If the phone is assigned to a new user, there must be a guarantee that all data has been removed.

    It's a fundamentally different security model than Android, and, in my opinion, a much better one.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    I'm thinking they're pretty similar. Last I checked, a Google account works just like BBID - if it's still on the device a new user can't sign in without the previous user's password, the prior owner needs to remove their account or give out their account password. It's possible to circumvent it if root exists for the device, but rooting will remove all data anyway. This is not to say which is better, just that they're much more alike than not.

    Blackberry 10 OS Commitment by Blackberry.-android-device-protection-top-100576442-large.jpg
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-15-19 04:47 AM
  9. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    I'm thinking they're pretty similar. Last I checked, a Google account works just like BBID - if it's still on the device a new user can't sign in without the previous user's password, the prior owner needs to remove their account or give out their account password. It's possible to circumvent it if root exists for the device, but rooting will remove all data anyway. This is not to say which is better, just that they're much more alike than not.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    As I understand it, the difference is this:

    On Android, the underlying user data is not destroyed when the Google account is simply removed. It's not available directly to apps or through the file manager, but it could be recovered with appropriate forensic tools.

    BlackBerry's goal was to guarantee that any transfer of the device from one account to another required a full reset.

    That may not be how an individual consumer wants to use their device, in which case, BB10 can't meet that requirement. But it was designed to ensure that one employee couldn'ttransfer their device to another person without the IT team's consent and a complete security wipe.of the device.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    11-15-19 11:02 AM
  10. conite's Avatar
    As I understand it, the difference is this:

    On Android, the underlying user data is not destroyed when the Google account is simply removed. It's not available directly to apps or through the file manager, but it could be recovered with appropriate forensic tools.

    BlackBerry's goal was to guarantee that any transfer of the device from one account to another required a full reset.

    That may not be how an individual consumer wants to use their device, in which case, BB10 can't meet that requirement. But it was designed to ensure that one employee couldn'ttransfer their device to another person without the IT team's consent and a complete security wipe.of the device.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    Like I mentioned before, this is a legacy technical limitation.

    BBM/BBID was initially tied to a specific piece of hardware. Whether it was only expedient to do this, or whether there was some inherent security design mandate for this is unknown.

    In any event, BBM was never able to extricate itself from being tied to the hardware on BB10 per its existing back-end infrastructure at the time.

    Only later did BBM become tied to BBID instead of hardware PIN when it went cross-platform. At that point, it was too late to redesign BB10.

    On another note, a Google account on an Android phone behaves like BlackBerry Protect on BB10. If you wipe a device with an active Google account, it won't let you in again without those credentials. If you wipe without an account, it's all yours.
    11-15-19 11:16 AM
  11. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Like I mentioned before, this is a legacy technical limitation.

    BBM/BBID was initially tied to a specific piece of hardware. Whether it was only expedient to do this, or whether there was some inherent security design mandate for this is unknown.

    In any event, BBM was never able to extricate itself from being tied to the hardware on BB10 per its existing back-end infrastructure at the time.

    Only later did BBM become tied to BBID instead of hardware PIN when it went cross-platform. At that point, it was too late to redesign BB10.

    On another note, a Google account on an Android phone behaves like BlackBerry Protect on BB10. If you wipe a device with an active Google account, it won't let you in again without those credentials. If you wipe without an account, it's all yours.
    We don't disagree. The Google theft protection model works just fine. But the Google model allows devices to be easily transferred from one account to another, which presents additional risks.

    Back in the 00s, BlackBerry sold the ability to tie a device to an individual as a core selling feature. and when BB10 was released, they kept that function as a differentiator against the iPhone so that their loyal IT fans could provide it to their procurement teams as a requirement to lock out Apple and Android.
    11-15-19 11:31 AM
  12. Thud Hardsmack's Avatar
    As I understand it, the difference is this:

    On Android, the underlying user data is not destroyed when the Google account is simply removed. It's not available directly to apps or through the file manager, but it could be recovered with appropriate forensic tools.

    BlackBerry's goal was to guarantee that any transfer of the device from one account to another required a full reset.

    That may not be how an individual consumer wants to use their device, in which case, BB10 can't meet that requirement. But it was designed to ensure that one employee couldn'ttransfer their device to another person without the IT team's consent and a complete security wipe.of the device.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    I don't know about enterprise, but for consumer BB10 removing the BBID does nothing but remove the BBID. A security wipe is still required to delete data, same as Android on both counts.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-15-19 02:05 PM
  13. conite's Avatar
    I don't know about enterprise, but for consumer BB10 removing the BBID does nothing but remove the BBID. A security wipe is still required to delete data, same as Android on both counts.
    I think he was trying to make the point that in order to change the BBID one HAD to do a security wipe.

    I'm not sure how this really changes anything anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-15-19 02:21 PM
  14. Zeddepher's Avatar
    I think he was trying to make the point that in order to change the BBID one HAD to do a security wipe.

    I'm not sure how this really changes anything anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    This has now descended into an argument over which end to open your egg. I prefer the BlackBerry way of doing it anyway.

    •<[{ BlackBerry Passport SE }]>•
    11-15-19 04:58 PM
  15. conite's Avatar
    This has now descended into an argument over which end to open your egg. I prefer the BlackBerry way of doing it anyway.

    •<[{ BlackBerry Passport SE }]>•
    I was kinda feeling more of a casual chat vibe.
    11-15-19 05:31 PM
  16. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    This has now descended into an argument over which end to open your egg. I prefer the BlackBerry way of doing it anyway.

    •<[{ BlackBerry Passport SE }]>•
    I don't feel that it's been anything but a discussion to clarify the logic behind BBID and people voices their personal preferences. What's the argument about?

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    11-15-19 05:55 PM
  17. co4nd's Avatar
    Exactly, prior to BBLtd publishing this information, from these forums I was under the impression that there about 10,000 BBOS and OS10 users remaining and that all associated personnel fired and buildings sold off, evidently that wasn't true so take whatever you read here with a grain of salt. Keep in mind most posters here are anonymous and you have no idea why they're posting what they're posting - and this goes for board owners and moderators.

    Posted via CB10
    Crackberry isn't why I'm shocked. I work as an IT consultant and I travel quite a bit. Use to be everyone had a BBOS phone. I have rarely seen BB10 phones at all. And I haven't seen either being used at all in the last 5 years.
    11-16-19 03:22 AM
  18. scubafan's Avatar
    I'm still very much pleased with my Q10. The only real issue I have is how often every browser I have refuses to open sites due to certificate problems...

    I still plan on being solidly in the camp of preferring the secure intuitive OS over the kludge & privacy nightmare called android!

    Just my $.02, YMMV ! ;-) sent via my Q10
    11-18-19 12:38 PM
  19. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Crackberry isn't why I'm shocked. I work as an IT consultant and I travel quite a bit. Use to be everyone had a BBOS phone. I have rarely seen BB10 phones at all. And I haven't seen either being used at all in the last 5 years.
    That's me as well.

    I expect some places BB10 devices might have been more common. But bottom line is they only sold 12 million of them, so it's little wonder that are a rarity. IT has had three years to phase out BB10, I rather doubt the idea that there are some BB10 customers that have pushed BlackBerry to delay the "end". I think two years ago BlackBerry mistakenly hoped that most BlackBerry users would have embraced the TCL phones and shutting down BBOS/BB10 would have been a minor issue for a small number of users two years later. Well clearly that didn't happen....

    Cost to keep those servers up isn't cheaper than the negative impact of cutting off people today. At some point they'll look at it and decide to pull the plug... might be five months, or another five years.
    11-18-19 12:56 PM
  20. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    That's me as well.

    I expect some places BB10 devices might have been more common. But bottom line is they only sold 12 million of them, so it's little wonder that are a rarity. IT has had three years to phase out BB10, I rather doubt the idea that there are some BB10 customers that have pushed BlackBerry to delay the "end". I think two years ago BlackBerry mistakenly hoped that most BlackBerry users would have embraced the TCL phones and shutting down BBOS/BB10 would have been a minor issue for a small number of users two years later. Well clearly that didn't happen....

    Cost to keep those servers up isn't cheaper than the negative impact of cutting off people today. At some point they'll look at it and decide to pull the plug... might be five months, or another five years.
    I don't think that BlackBerry Limited had any particular confidence that TCL would succeed. I think they were happy with the business terms and the low level of risk on their end and they were happy to roll the dice that TCL might succeed.

    I agree that there probably aren't many organizations who are still committed to BB10, but there may be one or more critical ones willing to pay for the backend support. I have a suspicion of at least one government organization still using BB10 as their only certified handset for internal comunications, but I'm not willing to share it, and I may be completely wrong in any case.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    11-18-19 06:07 PM
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