09-24-15 11:31 AM
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  1. JohnGrey's Avatar
    ...That video that was posted by Baka already has over 400k views...

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
    Watching a video on YouTube is free. Waxing poetic about an Android Slider made by BBRY is free. Going to a mobile phone establishment to play with one is free. The phone itself is not free. Economics 101: cost vs innate value. Does the PKB and the experience suite represent value significant enough to risk a purchase of a phone from a virtually unknown brand? I argue that, for the average consumer, the answer is no.
    09-20-15 03:04 PM
  2. ayngling's Avatar
    You're dreaming, sir, if you think that the PKB is the device seller here. Social currency is based on what's sexy and whatever productivity is, it ain't that. And mobile phones aren't a place where anyone wants to stand out. It's a place of conformity by tier.
    Thank you, sir, I like dreaming But, if you read my post (and the previous one) I never said the keyboard would sell it. I said other things would, but having the keyboard as part of the package may let some people get to know it in their own time and learn to like it. Even if you look at how I said someone who buys the slider would "sell it" on to their iPhone friends I never even mentioned the keyboard.

    One thing I do disagree with though, is that no-one wants to stand out with their mobile phone. I think a few important tastemakers do (look at Apple marketed themselves early on, do you think they spent money on this believing all people are conformists?). I think it is a well known fact that some people want to be different, the innovators (cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations )



    I like the thought of marketing this new BlackBerry to more senior business people, the ones who do not think they need a keyboard, but has used one before. Let them try it. Maybe they learn to enjoy it, maybe not. That demographic is so full of iPhones that some of them are bound to want something new.
    09-20-15 03:05 PM
  3. MO3iusONE's Avatar
    Watching a video on YouTube is free. Waxing poetic about an Android Slider made by BBRY is free. Going to a mobile phone establishment to play with one is free. The phone itself is not free. Economics 101: cost vs innate value. Does the PKB and the experience sweet represent value significant enough to risk a purchase of a phone from a virtually unknown brand? I argue that, for the average consumer, the answer is no.
    I get what your saying. I'm just pointing out that the slider is creating a lot of attention. Sure Blackberry's brand recognition isn't what it use to be but who knows own they might advertise the hell out of this phone, who knows.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
    astrodan13 and nonamenomore like this.
    09-20-15 03:10 PM
  4. d3ac0n's Avatar
    It's a 2.5k Samsung Amoled screen, Snapdragon 808, suposed 5.4 inch screen and the usual blackberry hardware build quality with decent speakers and reception. It's a flagship phone, it's going to be expensive, It's a competitor to LG G4, samsung galaxy S6, Iphone 6+, HTC One, etc. the price should be more or less the same as them, and I don't think anybody is expecting it to sell more than those.

    This is a device for people that are wiling to spend 500-700$ on a phone. Look at the Galaxy S6 edge, its 100$ more expensive than the "non edge" version, with pretty much no advantages, it's all about the looks and desirability... But people want it, and if they can afford, they buy it.

    Dropping over 500$ on a phone is pretty much an emotional choice not a rational one, because a 300$ phone can do pretty much the same, just a tad bit slower.
    People that are willing to drop that much ain't gonna buy a Blackberry. They want something that's recognized by their peers. That means iPhone and Samsung Sxx and to a lesser degree LG and HTC.
    All I see in meetings are Apple's offerings and a couple of S6. Only our COO is carrying a Q20 and me. We are the weirdos in the room.
    JohnGrey and lift like this.
    09-20-15 03:12 PM
  5. Joao Oliveira's Avatar
    I love BB as the next Crackberry addict but I know for a fact that companies don't run based on YouTube views or forum posts. If the thing doesn't reach as many consumer hands as possible (hence my affordable price argument) BB will go belly up as far as consumer market is concerned. And that's the last thing anyone here wants.
    they don't... have you tried to make some analogy? Go watch a Iphone review, and a Blackberry passport review... watch how many views they have...

    Go to a channel like Technobufalo, or Pocketnow. The devices that sell the most, tend to be the ones with most views wich makes total sense. Phones like Samsungs and Iphones are the flagships that most sell, and are the ones that hit the mos views on youtube for example.

    Those views alones exposes the consumer to the brand, and that alone is worth something already. If it wasn't for the internet, I probabily wouldn't know that phones like the Oneplus1 existed, because they never got in stores here.
    09-20-15 03:14 PM
  6. d3ac0n's Avatar
    they don't... have you tried to make some analogy? Go watch a Iphone review, and a Blackberry passport review... watch how many views they have...

    Go to a channel like Technobufalo, or Pocketnow. The devices that sell the most, tend to be the ones with most views wich makes total sense. Phones like Samsungs and Iphones are the flagships that most sell, and are the ones that hit the mos views on youtube for example.

    Those views alones exposes the consumer to the brand, and that alone is worth something already. If it wasn't for the internet, I probabily wouldn't know that phones like the Oneplus1 existed, because they never got in stores here.
    So tech reviews are what drives sales?

    LOL
    09-20-15 03:17 PM
  7. ayngling's Avatar
    All I see in meetings are Apple's offerings and a couple of S6. Only our COO is carrying a Q20 and me. We are the weirdos in the room.
    I love weirdos like that I do feel, though, that with the venice you would be a lot less weird. You would have all the apps your peers can want, top notch specs + camera, and the hub. Those are arguments people can relate to.

    I am also the weirdo in the room. Whether I am carrying the Passport or the Q10, no-one can see themselves using my phone, because it cannot do what they (think) they need. With the Venice I can finally use a phone that does what _I_ need, while at the same time can do what they need. That means I may influence a few of them to consider the BlackBerry, and maybe that will be enough.
    d3ac0n and 00stryder like this.
    09-20-15 03:19 PM
  8. JohnGrey's Avatar
    they don't... have you tried to make some analogy? Go watch a Iphone review, and a Blackberry passport review... watch how many views they have...

    Go to a channel like Technobufalo, or Pocketnow. The devices that sell the most, tend to be the ones with most views wich makes total sense. Phones like Samsungs and Iphones are the flagships that most sell, and are the ones that hit the mos views on youtube for example.

    Those views alones exposes the consumer to the brand, and that alone is worth something already. If it wasn't for the internet, I probabily wouldn't know that phones like the Oneplus1 existed, because they never got in stores here.
    And the OnePlus retails at what again? Not what is being suggested by some on in this thread as a reasonable price for the Slider.
    09-20-15 03:19 PM
  9. DolemiteDONS's Avatar
    To me it's simple and not as convoluted as some make it out to be. Continue with BB10 status quo, cater to a small shrinking niche group, and the hardware business reaches certain demise. Or enter the Android ecosystem to a full global audience with carrier support, also appealing to former BlackBerry users who were forced to leave, and more importantly, become brand relevant to the public again.

    It's safe to say, the public has spoken over the past two years. Without a vast ecosystem, 99% of the people are not interested. Even worse, having the public not know of its existence (augmented by carrier neglect) is a death blow. In short, out of sight, out of mind.

    The math is easy for BlackBerry. Attempt to gain 3% from an 80% market share, at the risk of losing .02% of their current .10% audience. It appears to me to be an easy decision?
    09-20-15 03:21 PM
  10. d3ac0n's Avatar
    I love weirdos like that I do feel, though, that with the venice you would be a lot less weird. You would have all the apps your peers can want, top notch specs + camera, and the hub. Those are arguments people can relate to.

    I am also the weirdo in the room. Whether I am carrying the Passport or the Q10, no-one can see themselves using my phone, because it cannot do what they (think) they need. With the Venice I can finally use a phone that does what _I_ need, while at the same time can do what they need. That means I may influence a few of them to consider the BlackBerry, and maybe that will be enough.
    I am not the one that will have a hard time buying a Venice. The consumers though, that's another story.
    My wife is not going to touch a BLACKBERRY. All her find carry an iPhone. When I have her a Z10 she just said
    "well it's not an iPhone so I don't want it"
    "but honey is got that and this and the hub and the gestures"
    "yeah but it's not an iPhone!"

    That's your average Joe or Jane Consumer in all its glory. If it's something that others don't recognize I don't want it mentality
    JohnGrey, lift and nonamenomore like this.
    09-20-15 03:26 PM
  11. JohnGrey's Avatar
    I like the thought of marketing this new BlackBerry to more senior business people, the ones who do not think they need a keyboard, but has used one before. Let them try it. Maybe they learn to enjoy it, maybe not. That demographic is so full of iPhones that some of them are bound to want something new.
    You're barking up a very costly and very wrong tree if you're trying to get iPhone users to go the Android platform, regardless of who the maker is. With existing Android users, you have a chance because their Play Store purchases will carry over. No such opportunity on the iPhone, which means all of their apps, movies, books, etc. would have to be repurchased, on top of the cost of possibly premium-cost phone. That's a bad strategy, however you slice it. And if you think that their being 'senior business people' means they have the discretionary income to mitigate the cost, well, people don't become good businessmen by being stupid with money.
    d3ac0n likes this.
    09-20-15 03:31 PM
  12. DolemiteDONS's Avatar
    I am not the one that will have a hard time buying a Venice. The consumers though, that's another story.
    My wife is not going to touch a BLACKBERRY. All her find carry an iPhone. When I have her a Z10 she just said
    "well it's not an iPhone so I don't want it"
    "but honey is got that and this and the hub and the gestures"
    "yeah but it's not an iPhone!"

    That's your average Joe or Jane Consumer in all its glory. If it's something that others don't recognize I don't want it mentality
    In this scenario, BlackBerry or other manufacturers have no chance with that type of consumer, where social status is their (many, not all) only prerequisite for a purchase.

    BlackBerry and others need to tap into the 80% market share, and keep the Apple aficionados at 20% because many of them are in it for one reason, as you say, "because it's an iPhone", case closed.
    09-20-15 03:32 PM
  13. JohnGrey's Avatar
    I am not the one that will have a hard time buying a Venice. The consumers though, that's another story.
    My wife is not going to touch a BLACKBERRY. All her find carry an iPhone. When I have her a Z10 she just said
    "well it's not an iPhone so I don't want it"
    "but honey is got that and this and the hub and the gestures"
    "yeah but it's not an iPhone!"

    That's your average Joe or Jane Consumer in all its glory. If it's something that others don't recognize I don't want it mentality
    That's been my experience, both among my friends and acquaintances, and in corporate IT. People pick a brand and they tend to stick with it, barring some sort of extraordinary external force. Perhaps they don't like the company's politics (part of the reason I myself left Apple), perhaps they had a catastrophic failure or terrifically bad support experience. Otherwise, the tendency of OEMs to follow the pack tends to keep people locked in place. That's true in all consumer electronics, not just mobile phones.
    09-20-15 03:34 PM
  14. JohnGrey's Avatar
    In this scenario, BlackBerry or other manufacturers have no chance with that type of consumer, where social status is their (many, not all) only prerequisite for a purchase.

    BlackBerry and others need to tap into the 80% market share, and keep the Apple aficionados at 20% because many of them are in it for one reason, as you say, "because it's an iPhone", case closed.
    It's not just Apple. Samsung has significant brand loyalty, as do LG and HTC, as d3ac0n mentioned. To break brand loyalty, you have to speak to people on the basest, most immediate level: money. If it's between something that's going to save them, say, 30 minutes a day in productivity improvements over the lifetime of the phone, or something that's going to save them $200 dollars at the point of sale, they're going to take the money, nearly everyone and nearly every time.
    09-20-15 03:38 PM
  15. d3ac0n's Avatar
    In this scenario, BlackBerry or other manufacturers have no chance with that type of consumer, where social status is their only prerequisite for a purchase.

    BlackBerry and others need to tap into the 80% market share, and keep the Apple aficionados at 20% because many of them are in it for one reason, as you say, "because it's an iPhone", case closed.
    You think the 80% that makes the android part of the market don't care about brand recognition? So why there aren't many SONYs, XIAOMIs and BLUs out there? OPPO makes excellent devices too. Android users are not social status agnostic (if that's a term, English is not my native language)
    09-20-15 03:40 PM
  16. Joao Oliveira's Avatar
    And the OnePlus retails at what again? Not what is being suggested by some on in this thread as a reasonable price for the Slider.
    first of all, why are you comparing the OnePlus with the Venice? The OnePlus was your run of the mill smartphone from a "white brand" that the only thing that it could to to diferentiate from the competition was the price, because it didn't offer much else than other phones established on the market. Samsung or LG phones didn't bring much new to the OnePlus, but they still sold well, why if the OnePlus offers the same and is cheaper?
    And I only brought the OnePlus to the conversation to explain why internet traffic is important and usable sales indicator.

    The Venice DOES have differention factors, and has a brand with recognition, It has a physical keyboard that nobody has, and has a High quality AMOLED screen with curved edges that only 2 other phones on the market have (Note Edge and S6 Edge). If Androidberry succedes, there will be devices with different specs and prices.

    This is the 101 marketing that you will find in any book, you either compete with price, or features.
    09-20-15 03:41 PM
  17. ayngling's Avatar
    I am not the one that will have a hard time buying a Venice. The consumers though, that's another story.
    My wife is not going to touch a BLACKBERRY. All her find carry an iPhone. When I have her a Z10 she just said
    "well it's not an iPhone so I don't want it"
    "but honey is got that and this and the hub and the gestures"
    "yeah but it's not an iPhone!"

    That's your average Joe or Jane Consumer in all its glory. If it's something that others don't recognize I don't want it mentality
    Sure, a lot of people will stay loyal to the Apple brand (the android crowd is a lot less loyal, maybe you can have more luck there). But, I have seen a lot of people (in Scandinavia and the UK) switch from iPhones to Android the last few years, so I feel there is a change coming. If BlackBerry can be a premium handset manufacturer they can be an alternative to Apple's offering (again, Venice should be no more and less than the S6 Edge).
    09-20-15 03:41 PM
  18. JohnGrey's Avatar
    first of all, why are you comparing the OnePlus with the Venice? The OnePlus was your run of the mill smartphone from a "white brand" that the only thing that it could to to diferentiate from the competition was the price, because it didn't offer much else than other phones established on the market. Samsung or LG phones didn't bring much new to the OnePlus, but they still sold well, why if the OnePlus offers the same and is cheaper?

    And I only brought the OnePlus to the conversation to explain why internet traffic is important and usable sales indicator.
    And what brought the traffic? It was the appearance of roughly flagship specs at a discounted price. And the fact that Samsung and LG continued to sell well undermines your case. The brand loyalty for those OEMs was enough to override the price point. BBRY hasn't the slightest chance to operate from the brand position.

    The Venice DOES have differention factors, and has a brand with recognition, It has a physical keyboard that nobody has, and has a High quality AMOLED screen with curved edges that only 2 other phones on the market have (Note Edge and S6 Edge). If Androidberry succedes, there will be devices with different specs and prices.
    It has that curved screen but does not, from what we can tell, take any software advantage of those. It seems, by all accounts, to be a purely aesthetic and unnecessary cost. And BBRY has brand recognition alright, just not the sort that you want. You're deluding yourself if you think the brand is held in esteem by even a fraction of consumers outside of BBRY's existing user base.

    This is the 101 marketing that you will find in any book, you either compete with price, or features.
    Nope, you compete according to features, price or brand cachet. Rolex for example, produces watches that are materially no better than a nice Fossil or Seiko, and functionally less accurate that any digital watch produced and sold for under $100. Yet, they still sell, just as Apple does. Venice does not have superlative specs, will not, by all accounts, have a superlative price point, and BBRY does not have the brand cachet. I.E., a poor offering.
    09-20-15 03:51 PM
  19. DolemiteDONS's Avatar
    Sure, a lot of people will stay loyal to the Apple brand (the android crowd is a lot less loyal, maybe you can have more luck there). But, I have seen a lot of people (in Scandinavia and the UK) switch from iPhones to Android the last few years, so I feel there is a change coming. If BlackBerry can be a premium handset manufacturer they can be an alternative to Apple's offering (again, Venice should be no more and less than the S6 Edge).
    And BlackBerry doesn't need to convert these loyalists. That's likely impossible. They just need to gain a small fraction of the 80% to be successful. They don't need to win the war, just a battle. And its a marathon, not a sprint. Being in the Android ecosystem at least keeps their foot in the door. With BB10, they are outside the door. (And I luv BB10, but 99% evidently do not, at least enough.)
    09-20-15 03:51 PM
  20. d3ac0n's Avatar
    first of all, why are you comparing the OnePlus with the Venice? The OnePlus was your run of the mill smartphone from a "white brand" that the only thing that it could to to diferentiate from the competition was the price, because it didn't offer much else than other phones established on the market. Samsung or LG phones didn't bring much new to the OnePlus, but they still sold well, why if the OnePlus offers the same and is cheaper?
    And I only brought the OnePlus to the conversation to explain why internet traffic is important and usable sales indicator.

    The Venice DOES have differention factors, and has a brand with recognition, It has a physical keyboard that nobody has, and has a High quality AMOLED screen with curved edges that only 2 other phones on the market have (Note Edge and S6 Edge). If Androidberry succedes, there will be devices with different specs and prices.

    This is the 101 marketing that you will find in any book, you either compete with price, or features.
    Competing with features can succeed when you bring something unique into the market. BB suite is going to be available in the play store. The only unique feature is the PKB. And PKB are not sexy right now for the 99% of the consumers.
    JohnGrey and lift like this.
    09-20-15 03:53 PM
  21. ayngling's Avatar
    I assume you at least agree with some of my post (the part you did not quote). The innovators are what BlackBerry needs to go after, the ones who want something new. Without that my argument would fall apart.

    You're barking up a very costly and very wrong tree if you're trying to get iPhone users to go the Android platform, regardless of who the maker is.
    All of them? There are a lot of them, especially in the demographic I am talking about. I think some of them wants a change (again, the innovators).

    With existing Android users, you have a chance because their Play Store purchases will carry over.
    True, with Android it is a much easier decision. And android is a big market (albeit not so much in the demographic I am talking about), which is nice.

    No such opportunity on the iPhone, which means all of their apps, movies, books, etc. would have to be repurchased, on top of the cost of possibly premium-cost phone. That's a bad strategy, however you slice it.
    Apple has been great at locking in their users, yes. It's very impressive.

    It would be a bad strategy if you need to convince all of them... most won't. They will violently oppose it. But again, the innovators, the non-conformists (those who have not yet bought an S6 Edge just to be different), they will consider it. Maybe some people don't like asian brands, but a North-American one is ok (sadly, those attitudes exist). Remember, BlackBerry doesn't need to convince the whole world right away, just enough people to be considered comeback material.

    And if you think that their being 'senior business people' means they have the discretionary income to mitigate the cost, well, people don't become good businessmen by being stupid with money.
    I think these types of people keep their phones a lot longer than we do... (I have worked with them). But they need to get a new phone every so many years, and when they do they will not buy the cheapest phone on the market, it is a status symbol as well, which is evident by the Apple market share in that demographic.

    I think we have a shot! (Yes, sir, I do like dreaming )
    09-20-15 03:56 PM
  22. Joao Oliveira's Avatar
    Competing with features can succeed when you bring something unique into the market. BB suite is going to be available in the play store. The only unique feature is the PKB. And PKB are not sexy right now for the 99% of the consumers.
    That's what you have, a different keyboard, and a AMOLED screen that only samsungs have (lg has Amoleds, but aren't as good as samsungs).

    The device design is done, it has flagship specs, it's a flagship phone, and it's going to be priced like one. I could understand the price argument when the Z10 launched, where it had subpar specs, for flagship price, trying to sell just because it says "blackberry". But the Venice isn't like that, it's a flagship spec phone. If blackberry gathers 1-3% of the consumers with this phone, it will be a win already, because BB10 probably doesn't have that now around the world. 1-3% is a few million devices.
    09-20-15 03:58 PM
  23. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I do not think that we are all on the same page as to what would constitute a success for the slider. My uninformed guesstimate would be 2.5 million units in year one as being a success.

    Hopefully they will build a cheaper same spec all touch version...And soon.

    Posted via CB10
    09-20-15 03:59 PM
  24. Ethereo's Avatar
    Buzz yes. Everyone saw it.

    Doesn't (and was never suppose to) have wide appeal. Niche product.

    Posted via  BlackBerry Z30
    Like the Slider
    09-20-15 04:04 PM
  25. d3ac0n's Avatar
    That's what you have, a different keyboard, and a AMOLED screen that only samsungs have (lg has Amoleds, but aren't as good as samsungs).

    The device design is done, it has flagship specs, it's a flagship phone, and it's going to be priced like one. I could understand the price argument when the Z10 launched, where it had subpar specs, for flagship price, trying to sell just because it says "blackberry". But the Venice isn't like that, it's a flagship spec phone. If blackberry gathers 1-3% of the consumers with this phone, it will be a win already, because BB10 probably doesn't have that now around the world. 1-3% is a few million devices.
    Well they can price it like an iPhone AFAIC but it ain't gonna sell, I guarantee it. If it's competitively priced it will make a small but albeit meaningful dent in the market. And Blackberry needs the attention right now
    09-20-15 04:04 PM
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