11-14-15 09:15 PM
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  1. jonty12's Avatar
    A lot of threads have people wondering if the number of installs of BB apps in the Play Store (currently 5000-10000) is an indication of the number of sales of the Priv. I've seen some conflicting info out there, as well as some articles that don't actually answer the questions - including one on Androidcentral. The following article gives a definitive answer - highlighted - that should make people more confident in BB Priv sales:

    Downloads vs installs: how Apple and Google count app numbers

    ... It turns out that both companies count app installs the exact same way. Both Apple and Google count only unique downloads of apps per user account. This means that if an app is universal, it is only counted once, no matter how many different devices you may install it on, as long as all of the devices are using the same account. Neither company counts pre-installed apps, so Google Maps, Talk, etc don't count, but iBooks does count because that is an optional install. ...


    The original, more detailed, source:

    http://thenextweb.com/apple/2013/05/...b+All+Stories)
    djmach_7HN and Dunt Dunt Dunt like this.
    11-13-15 08:22 AM
  2. johnlen7's Avatar
    Now, thats pretty assuring. So effectively we can say a minimum of 5000 Priv units would have been already sold by now in a Weeks's time.

    The number is then promising as BlackBerry is yet to deliver orders and fact that stores had only a few of em in stock and were all sold out.
    11-13-15 08:44 AM
  3. jonty12's Avatar
    Now, thats pretty assuring. So effectively we can say a minimum of 5000 Priv units would have been already sold by now in a Weeks's time.

    The number is then promising as BlackBerry is yet to deliver orders and fact that stores had only a few of em in stock and were all sold out.
    Actually, I think what it's saying is that we don't know how many have been sold/delivered at all, since the BB apps are pre-installed on devices and therefore not counted. This count is for separate downloads of the apps, not those that came on the Priv, e.g., people trying to get the apps working on non-BB Android phones.
    moody likes this.
    11-13-15 08:47 AM
  4. yulkes's Avatar
    I suspected that when an app comes pre-installed google doesn't count it, but it doesn't explain how they did count 5,000-10,000 for something that doesn't supposed to be counted at all. Google maps come pre-installed and have over a billion unique installs counted in the play store.

    I think Google start counting pre-installed apps from their first update, and that means that 5,000-10,000 users who got the Priv in their hands updated the app.

    Take in mind that install count doesn't say anything about sales, they might have already sold 10 Million devices, but less than 10,000 are in customer's hands.
    11-13-15 08:52 AM
  5. -Puck-'s Avatar
    I suspected that when an app comes pre-installed google doesn't count it, but it doesn't explain how they did count 5,000-10,000 for something that doesn't supposed to be counted at all. Google maps come pre-installed and have over a billion unique installs counted in the play store.

    I think Google start counting pre-installed apps from their first update, and that means that 5,000-10,000 users who got the Priv in their hands updated the app.

    Take in mind that install count doesn't say anything about sales, they might have already sold 10 Million devices, but less than 10,000 are in customer's hands.
    Could be Beta units, the older hardware revision, etc.

    Keep in mind when a Priv user checks the Play Store for updates to their BB apps like the Hub, it says "Upgrade" - not "Install". This leads us to believe that none of those upgrades are counted in that installation counter.

    With wildly conflicting numbers like the 5-10k Hub downloads but 500k Priv Content Transfer downloads we won't know sales numbers for sure until they give a report. Even if only half of the people who downloaded the Content Transfer apps purchased Privs, thats already 250k handsets in one week. Of course not everyone who downloaded the app will actually get a Priv...but on the flip side, not everyone who gets a Priv will be a BB customer and decided to download the app.
    11-13-15 08:59 AM
  6. muhlan's Avatar
    I suspected that when an app comes pre-installed google doesn't count it, but it doesn't explain how they did count 5,000-10,000 for something that doesn't supposed to be counted at all. Google maps come pre-installed and have over a billion unique installs counted in the play store.

    I think Google start counting pre-installed apps from their first update, and that means that 5,000-10,000 users who got the Priv in their hands updated the app.

    Take in mind that install count doesn't say anything about sales, they might have already sold 10 Million devices, but less than 10,000 are in customer's hands.
    I think these are downloads for installs on other phones like HTC (there was even a thread if I remember correctly about the BB VKB being installed on HTC). So these are the downloads OUTSIDE the PRIV
    11-13-15 09:00 AM
  7. yulkes's Avatar
    Could be Beta units, the older hardware revision, etc.

    Keep in mind when a Priv user checks the Play Store for updates to their BB apps like the Hub, it says "Upgrade" - not "Install". This leads us to believe that none of those upgrades are counted in that installation counter.

    With wildly conflicting numbers like the 5-10k Hub downloads but 500k Priv Content Transfer downloads we won't know sales numbers for sure until they give a report. Even if only half of the people who downloaded the Content Transfer apps purchased Privs, thats already 250k handsets in one week. Of course not everyone who downloaded the app will actually get a Priv...but on the flip side, not everyone who gets a Priv will be a BB customer and decided to download the app.
    True, but the content transfer app is not for Priv only and available for more than a year..
    If you look at the Hub, Keyboard, Services and everything Priv related you can see 5,000-10,000 installs.
    11-13-15 09:08 AM
  8. Mark Sb's Avatar
    Counting the apps installed is not a dependable measure...what percentage of buyers even know about these apps...never mind install them? I figure from my rough calculations that there is a demand for selling at about a rate of 5000-10,000 units per day since launch...not including amazon or shopbb.

    Calculations:

    5000 retail stores selling Privs across North America x 5 privs = 25000 / 3 days to sell out = 8300 per day x 365 = 3,041,666 + amazon + shopbb

    5,000,000 / 365 = 13,698

    So when you factor in increasing sales, more carriers, amazon, shopbb, and their other devices, it would appear they are well on their way to reaching their target of 5 million devices sold.
    Last edited by Mark Sb; 11-13-15 at 09:43 AM.
    11-13-15 09:12 AM
  9. cgk's Avatar
    Counting the apps installed is not a dependable measure...what percentage of buyers even know about these apps...never mind install them? I figure from my rough calculations that they are selling at about a rate of 5000-10,000 units per day since launch...not including sales from amazon or shopbb. Sales have been somewhat hindered by being out of stock, so I would expect this number to increase.

    Calculations:

    5000 retail stores selling Privs across North America x 5 privs = 25000 / 3 days to sell out = 8300 per day x 365 = 3,041,666 + amazon + shopbb

    5,000,000 / 365 = 13,698

    So when you factor in increasing sales...amazon, shopbb, and their other devices, it would appear they are well on their way to reaching their target of 5 million devices sold.
    10,000 units a day? Absolutely no chance, none - there is simply not the stock available for that to be happening. I checked with Carphone warehouse who are the exclusive in the UK and they had 147 available at warehouse. In the region I was in - with twenty stores there were 6 units in stores.
    11-13-15 09:21 AM
  10. -Puck-'s Avatar
    True, but the content transfer app is not for Priv only and available for more than a year..
    If you look at the Hub, Keyboard, Services and everything Priv related you can see 5,000-10,000 installs.
    Yes, but again we have no idea if that is counting updates, downloads, or just device sign-ins.

    Traditionally on an Android device, when you first log in all your preinstalled apps are listed in your My Apps page of the Playstore. This shows as a unique sign in, and adds an "install" count to that app.

    This is not the case with the Priv. The preloaded Blackberry apps do NOT show up in your "My Apps" page, and have to be manually searched and updated one at a time(note its an update, not an install so won't increase the counter). This leads us to believe that the initial counts from first sign ins are NOT being counted by Priv users, making the 5k-10k number...well, useless.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    11-13-15 09:21 AM
  11. Mark Sb's Avatar
    10,000 units a day? Absolutely no chance, none - there is simply not the stock available for that to be happening. I checked with Carphone warehouse who are the exclusive in the UK and they had 147 available at warehouse. In the region I was in - with twenty stores there were 6 units in stores.
    My calculations are based on the momentum of the sales generated so far based on the number of retail stores, demand and time it took to sell out...more projected sales than actual at this point. I have updated my post to use "demand" instead of "sales".

    "I figure from my rough calculations that there is a demand for selling at about a rate of 5000-10,000 units per day since launch."
    11-13-15 09:24 AM
  12. -Puck-'s Avatar
    10,000 units a day? Absolutely no chance, none - there is simply not the stock available for that to be happening. I checked with Carphone warehouse who are the exclusive in the UK and they had 147 available at warehouse. In the region I was in - with twenty stores there were 6 units in stores.
    All the ATT stores near me(20+ stores) showed stock on the website on the morning of the 6th, and by the end of the day only one store in 20 miles had any. The Sales Consultant at the store I bought my Fiance's from had 30 in stock and all of them sold the same day - I got the 2nd to last one at 6pm. He knew a lot about the device and was excited to show it.

    The smaller one I called first since it was closer to me said they only had 10, but were already sold out when I got off work.

    They are definitely selling far better then any other BB device in recent memory. Honestly once they fix the Hub sync issues(and the accompanying battery drain from it) it will be a very impressive phone.
    11-13-15 09:27 AM
  13. jonty12's Avatar
    Yes, but again we have no idea if that is counting updates, downloads, or just device sign-ins.

    Traditionally on an Android device, when you first log in all your preinstalled apps are listed in your My Apps page of the Playstore. This shows as a unique sign in, and adds an "install" count to that app.

    This is not the case with the Priv. The preloaded Blackberry apps do NOT show up in your "My Apps" page, and have to be manually searched and updated one at a time(note its an update, not an install so won't increase the counter). This leads us to believe that the initial counts from first sign ins are NOT being counted by Priv users, making the 5k-10k number...well, useless.
    Did you read the article?

    I'll paste relevant points with highlights here:

    Both Apple and Google tabulate unique downloads of apps per user account. This means that they count only one download of an app no matter how many devices that you install that app on after you purchase it. Neither company counts updates in its app download numbers. These are purely single downloads from their stores.

    Pre-installed apps

    Both companies told me that they do not count pre-installed apps among their numbers.

    Many Android devices come with apps pre-installed that can also be downloaded via the Google Play store, but those do not count towards Play Store downloads.
    Only apps downloaded from the Play Store with a user account are counted.

    So, pre-installed don't count, and updates don't count.
    djmach_7HN likes this.
    11-13-15 09:28 AM
  14. cgk's Avatar
    My calculations are based on the momentum of the sales that we can guess so far based on the number of retail stores, demand and time it took to sell out.
    Well we saw the shopblackberry numbers in the pre-order they were selling about 40 a day before they shut the loophole that allowed us to see stock and sales. As far as I am aware, they never sold out the intital 1000 pre-sale before it went on general release.

    let's consider the Samsung s6 and Samsung galaxy note and their online sales - something that Samsung put millions behind in terms of marketing and advertising:


    The data shows that Samsung sold about 10,000 Galaxy Note 5 units online and 5,000 S6 Edge Plus units between Aug. 14 and Aug. 23 in the U.S. In comparison, the company sold about 10,000 more of its smaller phones -- the Galaxy S6 and S6 Edge -- when the devices launched in April. The S6 accounted for 20,000 units of U.S. online sales and the S6 Edge saw 5,000 sold in their first 10 days, 1010data reported.
    Samsung Galaxy Note 5 Sales Outpace Galaxy S6 Edge Plus Online In US

    Now take into consideration that Samsung with Apple accounts represented 66% of all smartphones sold in the US and between them represent 9 of the top 10 most-sold smartphones.

    So for the numbers you are talking about - BBRY with no advertising, limited availability and a rather toxic brand would have to performing at a Samsung or above level. I just don't see that as credible.
    JeepBB likes this.
    11-13-15 09:33 AM
  15. djmach_7HN's Avatar
    I was just reading in another post, that people were asking the same question.

    You are correct. Pre-installed apps don't add to the "Installs" count.
    11-13-15 09:37 AM
  16. Mark Sb's Avatar
    All the ATT stores near me(20+ stores) showed stock on the website on the morning of the 6th, and by the end of the day only one store in 20 miles had any. The Sales Consultant at the store I bought my Fiance's from had 30 in stock and all of them sold the same day - I got the 2nd to last one at 6pm. He knew a lot about the device and was excited to show it.

    The smaller one I called first since it was closer to me said they only had 10, but were already sold out when I got off work.

    They are definitely selling far better then any other BB device in recent memory. Honestly once they fix the Hub sync issues(and the accompanying battery drain from it) it will be a very impressive phone.
    A Seeking alpha article confirmed the same thing in 10 different cities: Miami, Houston, Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Seattle etc.

    Initial Sales Indications For BlackBerry's Priv Look Good - BlackBerry Ltd. (NASDAQ:BBRY) | Seeking Alpha
    11-13-15 09:38 AM
  17. cgk's Avatar
    I was just reading in another post, that people were asking the same question.

    You are correct. Pre-installed apps don't add to the "Installs" count.
    I'm not sure this is true - the original articles from 2013 and looking at newer stuff, over at android central:



    Phil Nickinson
    I don't think preload versus manual download matters, right? If it pings the store, it pings the store. Does it matter how it got on the phone?

    Ask AC: How many installs does an app really have? | Android Central

    Then I found this from 2014:

    https://medium.com/@deepakabbot/goog...rs-5e7658698af

    Now that post has a lot of guesswork in it but one aspect isn't - that in 2014 (after the articles mentioned by the op), google changed how they measure preinstalled apps. So at a minimum we should work forward from there. in terms of how the counting works.
    11-13-15 09:48 AM
  18. jberb1984's Avatar
    Counting the apps installed is not a dependable measure...what percentage of buyers even know about these apps...never mind install them? I figure from my rough calculations that there is a demand for selling at about a rate of 5000-10,000 units per day since launch...not including amazon or shopbb.

    Calculations:

    5000 retail stores selling Privs across North America x 5 privs = 25000 / 3 days to sell out = 8300 per day x 365 = 3,041,666 + amazon + shopbb

    5,000,000 / 365 = 13,698

    So when you factor in increasing sales, more carriers, amazon, shopbb, and their other devices, it would appear they are well on their way to reaching their target of 5 million devices sold.
    Your numbers are way off. Only about 1/3 of the stores within 50 miles of me(all of Cincinnati and Dayton) had the Priv. Those that had stock got 2. And in the first 3 days only about half of those stores had sold out...

    Curve8300 - Curve9220 - Torch9850 - Z10 - Priv
    11-13-15 09:53 AM
  19. jonty12's Avatar
    I'm not sure this is true - the original articles from 2013 and looking at newer stuff, over at android central:






    Ask AC: How many installs does an app really have? | Android Central

    Then I found this from 2014:

    https://medium.com/@deepakabbot/goog...rs-5e7658698af

    Now that post has a lot of guesswork in it but one aspect isn't - that in 2014 (after the articles mentioned by the op), google changed how they measure preinstalled apps. So at a minimum we should work forward from there. in terms of how the counting works.
    The AC article was the first I found, but the key phrase is "I don't think", as opposed to the earlier article where they definitively contacted Google and Apple and got the answers. I actually refer to the later AC article in the OP.
    cgk likes this.
    11-13-15 09:55 AM
  20. cgk's Avatar
    The AC article was the first I found, but the key phrase is "I don't think", as opposed to the earlier article where they definitively contacted Google and Apple and got the answers. I actually refer to the later AC article in the OP.
    Opps missed that - one sneaky trick that Google now seems to do to discourage people publishing to a third party store is that if you install an apk from a third party and then uninstall it, it knock it off your play store numbers...
    11-13-15 09:58 AM
  21. aha's Avatar
    So basically we still don't have any ideas on sales. I can accept that.

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2639
    Elephant_Canyon likes this.
    11-13-15 09:59 AM
  22. Mark Sb's Avatar
    Your numbers are way off. Only about 1/3 of the stores within 50 miles of me(all of Cincinnati and Dayton) had the Priv. Those that had stock got 2. And in the first 3 days only about half of those stores had sold out...

    Curve8300 - Curve9220 - Torch9850 - Z10 - Priv
    Perhaps...but some stores had more than 5 units...some had less...some stores sold out...some didn't...maybe there are more than 5000 stores...maybe less at this time. It's just a projection...a guess based on the available information.
    11-13-15 10:00 AM
  23. -Puck-'s Avatar
    Did you read the article?

    I'll paste relevant points with highlights here:

    Both Apple and Google tabulate unique downloads of apps per user account. This means that they count only one download of an app no matter how many devices that you install that app on after you purchase it. Neither company counts updates in its app download numbers. These are purely single downloads from their stores.

    Pre-installed apps

    Both companies told me that they do not count pre-installed apps among their numbers.

    Many Android devices come with apps pre-installed that can also be downloaded via the Google Play store, but those do not count towards Play Store downloads.
    Only apps downloaded from the Play Store with a user account are counted.

    So, pre-installed don't count, and updates don't count.
    Thank you for just repeating what I said?

    My post was a reply to the quoted portion that stated there were only 5k-10k listed installed in the Play Store, and explaining that number as useless since our Priv updates are not counted.
    11-13-15 10:01 AM
  24. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    I recall another article that came out around the same time as that article, that did address the Pre-Installed metrics a bit more. But I didn't seem to find it just now after a cursory search. But it pointed out how many apps that are typically pre-installed (Maps, Gmail, etc..), saw a sudden surge in the Installed metric. I dunno if that article has been taken down, or it's just buried deep enough that my cursory search has the link on page 200 of the search results. :shrug:
    11-13-15 10:02 AM
  25. jonty12's Avatar
    Thank you for just repeating what I said?

    My post was a reply to the quoted portion that stated there were only 5k-10k listed installed in the Play Store, and explaining that number as useless since our Priv updates are not counted.
    actually no, it was in response to you saying:

    "Yes, but again we have no idea if that is counting updates, downloads, or just device sign-ins."

    I was simply reiterating that yes we do have an idea. They clearly state they don't count updates.
    11-13-15 10:05 AM
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