11-11-15 11:02 PM
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  1. The Big Picture's Avatar
    So does the blackphone2 and Samsung know have secure root of trust?

    http://crackberry.com/heres-how-blac...d-android-priv

    What do you guys think of the priv's security now?

    Is it as secure as BlackBerry 10?

    And as far as privacy is concerned will DTEK allow permission control on 5.1.1 lollipop? Just like blackphone2?

    Posted via CB10
    10-20-15 11:49 PM
  2. clickitykeys's Avatar
    And it's not simply a matter of accessing that data, or even selling/sharing that data. The other problem is that whenever such data is collected - some of it quite sensitive personal material - it now is vulnerable to compromise and attack through a variety of other ways, including various Google "partners" and "partners of partners" and "partners of partners of partners" who may be (and most certainly many are) using fundamentally insecure stewardship and operational practices. It becomes essentially a timebomb waiting to go off, the more data is collected, and the more it is shared.
    Thanks for stating this clearly. This, actually, is my main worry. It is very difficult to control the flow of personal information once it has propagated to more than a small number of "partners ".



    Q10/10.3.2
    10-20-15 11:58 PM
  3. Omnitech's Avatar
    However, you can shut off permissions (in M native, in earlier revs using a third-party app) that for all intents and purposes "neuter" said apps ability to get to anything. If you do that, however, then any app that requires those components won't work -- much like is the case with BB10 now.

    Not really. There are tons of non-blockable app permissions in Android, eg internet access.

    I don't know how comprehensive the following are, but they provide a start (For example, apparently apps can declare custom permissions too):

    Manifest.permission | Android Developers
    https://github.com/android/platform_...idManifest.xml

    Where can I get a list of Android permissions - Stack Overflow

    Also, "App Ops" is fairly limited, there are a ton of app permissions that it doesn't have access/control over. BB10's new permission settings for Android are also very coarse - something like a half-dozen general groups that bundle dozens of raw permissions.

    For example, here is a list of what permissions the Google Play Store app requests on my Nexus 7:


    • read phone status and identity
    • send SMS messages
    • approximate location
    • precise location
    • modify or delete the contents of your USB storage
    • read the contents of your USB storage
    • add or remove accounts
    • create accounts and set passwords
    • find accounts on the device
    • read Google service configuration
    • use accounts on the device
    • modify secure system settings
    • change network connectivity
    • control Near Field Communications
    • full network access
    • Google Play billing service
    • receive data from internet
    • view network connections
    • retrieve running apps
    • run at startup
    • prevent tablet from sleeping
    • delete all app cache data
    • install shortcuts
    • interact across users
    • modify system settings


    And Google Play services:

    • read phone status and identity
    • read instant messages
    • write instant messages
    • take pictures and videos
    • record audio
    • approximate location
    • precise location
    • modify your contacts
    • read your contacts
    • read your social stream
    • write to your social stream
    • activity recognition
    • modify your own contact card
    • read your own contact card
    • modify or delete the contents of your USB storage
    • read the contents of your USB storage
    • add or remove accounts
    • contacts data in Google accounts
    • create accounts and set passwords
    • find accounts on the device
    • Google mail
    • read Google service configuration
    • use accounts on the device
    • view configured accounts
    • YouTube
    • modify secure system settings
    • read sensitive log data
    • retrieve system internal state
    • change network connectivity
    • connect and disconnect from Wi-Fi
    • download files without notification
    • full network access
    • receive data from internet
    • view network connections
    • view Wi-Fi connections
    • access Bluetooth settings
    • pair with Bluetooth devices
    • make app always run
    • run at startup
    • draw over other apps
    • control vibration
    • prevent tablet from sleeping
    • read sync settings
    • read sync statistics
    • toggle sync on and off
    • interact across users
    • modify system settings
    • read subscribed feeds
    • retrieve app ops statistics
    • send sticky broadcast
    • write subscribed feeds



    Since Gplay is the "Holy Grail" as far as BlackBerry's interest in Android goes, I think it goes without saying that Gplay is going to be installed and fully-functional on the Priv.

    Now see how many of those perms you can disable, using AppOps or Android M. Next, check to see if Gplay still works.



    That depends on whether or not BlackBerry is actually now part of the OHA. That has yet to be determined one way or the other.

    It's a requirement imposed by Google if you ship a device with any of their proprietary apps and frameworks. (Gplay, Gmail, G+, Hangouts, Gmaps, Google Now, etc etc etc.)



    But, that's also what is now being looked at by anti-trust police at the FTC, and similar government agencies in other countries. Similar to how Microsoft got in trouble with IE on Windows years back.
    The OHA may be slowly fading away, just like BB10.


    And as with the Microsoft antitrust litigation, any changes along those lines are years away, if any. Certainly not before the Priv ships in any case.


    Also, as of this post, BlackBerry still does not show up in the current list of OHA members as either a manufacturer or a software provider.

    Since BlackBerry has never yet shipped a native Android device, and since pre-release product plans are quite sensitive competitive material, it's not particularly surprising to me that they do not show up in that list yet. Imagine the uproar if they showed up in the list when they first explored the Android option on the Priv, say, 6 or 9 months ago? Yeah.
    Last edited by Omnitech; 10-21-15 at 12:51 PM.
    Superdupont 2_0 likes this.
    10-21-15 12:30 PM
  4. Omnitech's Avatar
    So does the blackphone2 and Samsung know have secure root of trust?

    Here's how BlackBerry secured Android on the Priv | CrackBerry.com

    What do you guys think of the priv's security now?

    Is it as secure as BlackBerry 10?

    And as far as privacy is concerned will DTEK allow permission control on 5.1.1 lollipop? Just like blackphone2?

    In a nutshell, none of the information I've seen so far, including the information contained on the linked page above, has led me to believe that the Priv is even close to the level of security/privacy offered by the Blackphone.

    That said, there are some practical matters - eg, the Blackphone provides highly secure/private voice calls and messaging, but both sides need to use their service to fully take advantage of that. Which costs money on an ongoing basis. (Blackphone owners get free access to it for a year or two.) Given how few people on the other side of the link are likely to be subscribers, the realistic benefit for day-to-day usage is not high, unless you can convince all your correspondents to sign up. (In some cases there is a minor benefit of encryption on the Blackphone side of link with someone not using the SilentCircle service)

    This is where BlackBerry potentially has an advantage, as about 80% of the security of the Blackphone voice/messaging security can be obtained with BBM Protected, and BBM still has millions of users. (Though most of them nowadays are in Islamic countries and Africa. )

    But what the Priv does not provide, as far as I can tell from the silly leaks and tiny snippets of information that BlackBerry has been dribbling-out about the Priv so far, is the customizable secure containers that Blackphone has, which are a huge factor in making all the snoopery Google apps, frameworks and services tolerable. (Ie, you could potentially "wall off" all the snoopery Google stuff into a container which cannot see your actual personal data held in another, separate container. Though there are a variety of features and functions of Android that you would give up if you did this. Also, if you decide you want to have eg Gplay use your personal credit card to buy apps with, once you provide that you are giving them an opportunity to cross-link it with other personal info held somewhere else in the Googleplex, quite possibly making your efforts at keeping your personal info out of their hands moot.)
    Superdupont 2_0 likes this.
    10-21-15 01:13 PM
  5. The Big Picture's Avatar
    In a nutshell, none of the information I've seen so far, including the information contained on the linked page above, has led me to believe that the Priv is even close to the level of security/privacy offered by the Blackphone.

    That said, there are some practical matters - eg, the Blackphone provides highly secure/private voice calls and messaging, but both sides need to use their service to fully take advantage of that. Which costs money on an ongoing basis. (Blackphone owners get free access to it for a year or two.) Given how few people on the other side of the link are likely to be subscribers, the realistic benefit for day-to-day usage is not high, unless you can convince all your correspondents to sign up. (In some cases there is a minor benefit of encryption on the Blackphone side of link with someone not using the SilentCircle service)

    This is where BlackBerry potentially has an advantage, as about 80% of the security of the Blackphone voice/messaging security can be obtained with BBM Protected, and BBM still has millions of users. (Though most of them nowadays are in Islamic countries and Africa. )

    But what the Priv does not provide, as far as I can tell from the silly leaks and tiny snippets of information that BlackBerry has been dribbling-out about the Priv so far, is the customizable secure containers that Blackphone has, which are a huge factor in making all the snoopery Google apps, frameworks and services tolerable. (Ie, you could potentially "wall off" all the snoopery Google stuff into a container which cannot see your actual personal data held in another, separate container. Though there are a variety of features and functions of Android that you would give up if you did this. Also, if you decide you want to have eg Gplay use your personal credit card to buy apps with, once you provide that you are giving them an opportunity to cross-link it with other personal info held somewhere else in the Googleplex, quite possibly making your efforts at keeping your personal info out of their hands moot.)
    In that case here's hoping for the priv to have secure containers. I'll be looking out for that.

    How about this?

    Protect Your Sandbox

    PRIV integrates seamlessly with Android for Work to provide secure separation between work and personal data and applications. The Personal Space lets you download apps and protects your personal privacy, while the Work Space lets the enterprise secure its corporate data.

    Taken from: http://blogs.blackberry.com/2015/10/...roid-platform/

    Have you tried removing google services from your nexus?

    http://www.xda-developers.com/settin...ithout-google/

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by The Big Picture; 10-21-15 at 01:59 PM.
    10-21-15 01:44 PM
  6. Omnitech's Avatar
    In that case here's hoping for the priv to have secure containers. I'll be looking out for that.

    How about this?

    Protect Your Sandbox

    PRIV integrates seamlessly with Android for Work to provide secure separation between work and personal data and applications. The Personal Space lets you download apps and protects your personal privacy, while the Work Space lets the enterprise secure its corporate data.

    Taken from: PRIV is for Private: How BlackBerry Secures the Android Platform | Inside BlackBerry

    All Blackberries are compatible with BES, which provides the secure containers.

    But BES is typically only used by large businesses that can afford the not insignificant investment and management required to run a BES infrastructure, and it still only provides rigid "work" and "personal" containers, which I don't think are adequate to achieve what is necessary to lockdown Android for personal privacy.

    Blackphone allows more than 2, user-customizable containers.

    What might change my mind about Priv is if BlackBerry introduces a new form of BES Cloud, which allows for such configurable containers and gives away the service with the Priv or at the very least makes it affordable. That would be my personal minimal requirement. Then we start talking about the other items in my shortlist of intrusive Android elements that need to be put on a leash.




    Have you tried removing google services from your nexus?

    Setting up Android Marshmallow, without Google - XDA Forums

    My Nexus7 (2013) is rooted and running CyanogenMod 11. When it was rooted the "Gapps" were installed but I don't use them at all, have all the Google sync stuff deactivated and in fact have no Google account associated with the device at all. Neither do I keep the kind of sensitive data on it that would normally be on people's smartphones. (Contacts, calendar, SMS history, phone call history, personal photos, GPS is disabled, don't use Google's web browser, don't use Gplay, don't use Gmail, don't keep the device with me and activated when traveling, etc etc)
    10-21-15 02:48 PM
  7. BB-JAM215's Avatar
    ... What might change my mind about Priv is if BlackBerry introduces a new form of BES Cloud, which allows for such configurable containers and gives away the service with the Priv or at the very least makes it affordable. That would be my personal minimal requirement. Then we start talking about the other items in my shortlist of intrusive Android elements that need to be put on a leash. ...
    My understanding is that, even though BES Cloud is marketed to businesses, it is possible for an individual to subscribe to it.
    10-21-15 08:35 PM
  8. Omnitech's Avatar
    My understanding is that, even though BES Cloud is marketed to businesses, it is possible for an individual to subscribe to it.
    That's correct, but it still only supports 2 containers and costs money.
    10-22-15 01:32 AM
  9. BB-JAM215's Avatar
    That's correct, but it still only supports 2 containers and costs money.
    And both Silent Circle and BlackBerry are in the business of making money through secure service subscriptions.
    10-22-15 10:36 AM
  10. tickerguy's Avatar
    All Blackberries are compatible with BES, which provides the secure containers.

    But BES is typically only used by large businesses that can afford the not insignificant investment and management required to run a BES infrastructure, and it still only provides rigid "work" and "personal" containers, which I don't think are adequate to achieve what is necessary to lockdown Android for personal privacy.

    Blackphone allows more than 2, user-customizable containers.

    What might change my mind about Priv is if BlackBerry introduces a new form of BES Cloud, which allows for such configurable containers and gives away the service with the Priv or at the very least makes it affordable. That would be my personal minimal requirement. Then we start talking about the other items in my shortlist of intrusive Android elements that need to be put on a leash.
    BES12 is available in cloud form, you can buy it as an individual for one device, and it's reasonable in price. This gives you the work/personal separation.
    10-22-15 11:48 AM
  11. Omnitech's Avatar
    And both Silent Circle and BlackBerry are in the business of making money through secure service subscriptions.
    BES12 is available in cloud form, you can buy it as an individual for one device, and it's reasonable in price. This gives you the work/personal separation.

    To reiterate, neither the customizable (up to 4) containers nor the security service for Blackphone users cost them any money for at least the first year. They also provide a free 1-year "gift subscription" that you can give to someone you want to do secure communications with.

    https://support.silentcircle.com/cus...-do-they-last-

    Trying to get details on individual device licenses of BES Cloud is a challenge, calling on the phone to support or NA sales results in getting put on hold for 15+ minutes, and their website is inconclusive about whether they sell single-device licenses or not. Anyone care to share those details? I can't find them here:

    https://store.blackberry.com/direct/...ue/c/1?q=cloud



    (EDIT: still on hold with BlackBerry Enterprise Sales... after 40 minutes. Not looking good..)
    Last edited by Omnitech; 10-22-15 at 03:14 PM.
    10-22-15 02:48 PM
  12. Steve Rizla's Avatar

    Is it as secure as BlackBerry 10?
    You will never get an honest answer from anyone here or even BlackBerry themselves. BB10 is closed source.
    10-22-15 02:57 PM
  13. Omnitech's Avatar
    You will never get an honest answer from anyone here or even BlackBerry themselves. BB10 is closed source.

    ROFLcopter.

    The main problem are people who have no idea what they're talking about when answering such questions. Do you?
    10-22-15 03:53 PM
  14. tickerguy's Avatar
    To reiterate, neither the customizable (up to 4) containers nor the security service for Blackphone users cost them any money for at least the first year. They also provide a free 1-year "gift subscription" that you can give to someone you want to do secure communications with.

    https://support.silentcircle.com/cus...-do-they-last-

    Trying to get details on individual device licenses of BES Cloud is a challenge, calling on the phone to support or NA sales results in getting put on hold for 15+ minutes, and their website is inconclusive about whether they sell single-device licenses or not. Anyone care to share those details? I can't find them here:

    https://store.blackberry.com/direct/...ue/c/1?q=cloud



    (EDIT: still on hold with BlackBerry Enterprise Sales... after 40 minutes. Not looking good..)
    Really? You couldn't just buy it online?

    Silver, 1 year per device, $23/yr.
    Gold, Flexible (Android, IOS or BB10) is $72/yr.

    Took me about 1 minute to get to the page where I can click "buy".

    https://store.blackberry.com/direct/...692.1419047964
    10-22-15 04:39 PM
  15. Omnitech's Avatar
    Really? You couldn't just buy it online?

    Silver, 1 year per device, $23/yr.
    Gold, Flexible (Android, IOS or BB10) is $72/yr.

    Took me about 1 minute to get to the page where I can click "buy".

    https://store.blackberry.com/direct/...692.1419047964

    It required a site registration to get past the point I had gotten-to (including your link above), I assume that's what the issue was. (I don't generally have much patience for companies that require a bunch of info from you just to get details on the product they are trying to sell you.)

    Or something else I was blocking in the browser may have caused it but I saw no evidence of that.

    Never had any reason to register with shopblackberry because they never sell devices that work on my carrier, or have competitive prices on accessories.
    10-22-15 04:46 PM
  16. tickerguy's Avatar
    Well it's $23.

    I had a trial but let it expire (they'll let you do that too, 60 days free, so you can see if it will do what you want before you pay.)

    The account, surprisingly, is still there. I may turn it back on when I get a Priv, just to get the second compartment.
    10-22-15 05:55 PM
  17. sorinv's Avatar
    The costs of maintaining two OSes will have the tendency to get out of control, at the moment BB has to do this because BB10 has all of the government security clearances or certifications Android does not. Chen stated on the Code/Mobile interview that there will be two more updates to BB10 that will update BB10's security certificates for the enterprise/government market. His long term plan for Android and BB10 is to influence Google's development of Android towards BlackBerry's implementation of security and add more of BB10's features into Android that in the long term would cause BB10 and Android to "merge" only then would BB10 be retired. So what this means IMHO is that for the consumer market BB10 is for all intents "dead."
    Or that Chen is playing an Elop for Google...
    FinnBerry likes this.
    10-23-15 08:28 AM
  18. sorinv's Avatar
    It required a site registration to get past the point I had gotten-to (including your link above), I assume that's what the issue was. (I don't generally have much patience for companies that require a bunch of info from you just to get details on the product they are trying to sell you.)

    Or something else I was blocking in the browser may have caused it but I saw no evidence of that.

    Never had any reason to register with shopblackberry because they never sell devices that work on my carrier, or have competitive prices on accessories.
    Thanks for all the posts in this thread.
    How secure and private is Ubuntu?
    Can you even trust Linux on your computer anymore?
    I gave up on the Windows and Microsoft even as a dual boot option more than 10 years ago.
    DJM626 likes this.
    10-23-15 08:34 AM
  19. Steve Rizla's Avatar
    ROFLcopter.

    The main problem are people who have no idea what they're talking about when answering such questions. Do you?
    Please enlighten me then oh wise one.
    My point is that you can't go through the source code of BB10, IOS, Windows 10, etc the same way that you can with AOSP source code and then make a statement on whether one is more secure than the other.
    I'm talking about OS level exploits, not some bullet points that you can read on some site.

    Sure, we assume BB10 is safer than Android, but how do YOU know for sure?
    10-23-15 08:53 AM
  20. Omnitech's Avatar
    Thanks for all the posts in this thread.
    How secure and private is Ubuntu?
    Can you even trust Linux on your computer anymore?
    I gave up on the Windows and Microsoft even as a dual boot option more than 10 years ago.

    There is no simple answer here. Any reasonably decent OS can be configured and run securely or insecurely. A securely managed Windows system is probably generally better than a poorly managed Linux or OS-X system.
    10-23-15 10:11 AM
  21. Omnitech's Avatar
    Please enlighten me then oh wise one.
    My point is that you can't go through the source code of BB10, IOS, Windows 10, etc the same way that you can with AOSP source code and then make a statement on whether one is more secure than the other.
    I'm talking about OS level exploits, not some bullet points that you can read on some site.

    Sure, we assume BB10 is safer than Android, but how do YOU know for sure?

    While it's all well and good to have the ability to inspect the source code, most people do not have the skill to do this and come to a useful conclusion themselves anyway, and the simple fact that the source is public is not a guarantee of security either. There are tons of OSS S/W that is notoriously insecure, and has a long history of insecurities.

    With regard to BB10 and other mobile operating systems, I have a decent idea of the relative merits because I follow the development, research and news on them. You can too.

    There is no "magic bullet" that automatically makes A, B or C "universally superior" - in fact, the situation changes all the time. For example, BASH, an open-source product from the very start and something that a huge percentage of the world's online infrastructure uses as the default command shell on webservers, DNS servers, routers, and all manner of network-connected devices that make up a huge percentage of the networked world - recently discovered an extremely-serious and widely-exploited security flaw that, as it turns out, had been introduced into the shipping code in 1989.

    That's just the background. If you want details you'll have to either lookup one of my prior posts on the subject or wait until I'm not sitting here typing this on my Z10.
    10-23-15 10:31 AM
  22. Steve Rizla's Avatar
    While it's all well and good to have the ability to inspect the source code, most people do not have the skill to do this and come to a useful conclusion themselves anyway, and the simple fact that the source is public is not a guarantee of security either. There are tons of OSS S/W that is notoriously insecure, and has a long history of insecurities.
    Uhhh, I never said that open source was more secure. I was just stating the fact that you can't compare the two because you can only dig so deep into BB10.

    With regard to BB10 and other mobile operating systems, I have a decent idea of the relative merits because I follow the development, research and news on them.
    So, now you just have a 'decent' idea? You mean the same as everyone else who doesn't have access to QNX/BB10 source?

    You can too.
    I know. I provided detailed reports to BlackBerry on how to recreate bugs that I found when 'we' were getting BB10 ready for end users.

    There is no "magic bullet" that automatically makes A, B or C "universally superior" - in fact, the situation changes all the time. For example, BASH, an open-source product from the very start and something that a huge percentage of the world's online infrastructure uses as the default command shell on webservers, DNS servers, routers, and all manner of network-connected devices that make up a huge percentage of the networked world - recently discovered an extremely-serious and widely-exploited security flaw that, as it turns out, had been introduced into the shipping code in 1989.

    That's just the background. If you want details you'll have to either lookup one of my prior posts on the subject or wait until I'm not sitting here typing this on my Z10.
    I wasn't asking for a history lesson on the Shellshock bug though. You made the assumption that I'm a random who doesn't work with *nix OSes and fix bad code every day.
    10-23-15 12:44 PM
  23. Omnitech's Avatar
    Uhhh, I never said that open source was more secure. I was just stating the fact that you can't compare the two because you can only dig so deep into BB10.
    You implied that simply because a platform is not OSS, its security (or lack thereof) cannot be ascertained or compared. It's a silly idea. Yes OSS can certainly help to determine the security of S/W, but there is no guarantee this will provide any concrete comparitive knowledge, nor does it mean that non-OSS is inherently weaker or inferior, or even inclined to be so. The devil is in the details.



    I wasn't asking for a history lesson on the Shellshock bug though. You made the assumption that I'm a random who doesn't work with *nix OSes and fix bad code every day.

    Well your comments here on this subject would not have suggested as much, thus the "history lesson" meant to demonstrate that security and vulnerability-assessment is not some either/or where something non-OSS is automatically assumed to be of unknown security simply because someone can't examine the source. BASH's source was open since the beginning but a horrible glaring security bug existed since 1989 despite millions of users around the world and probably hundreds if not thousands of people reviewing its source code over that timeframe.

    Hackers and pentesters have discovered and learned these security distinctions about both OSS and non-OSS S/W for decades. "Pwn2Own" competitions, last I checked, did not require the source code on every system challenged.
    10-23-15 06:38 PM
  24. tickerguy's Avatar
    Yeah, like with OpenSSL. Code intended for security purposes (and thus you'd think people would care) and yet I seem to keep having to load new versions as they keep finding buffer overflow, use-after-free and other similar errors..... no, open source doesn't mean that people actually vet the code!
    10-23-15 09:01 PM
  25. filanto's Avatar
    All Blackberries are compatible with BES, which provides the secure containers.

    But BES is typically only used by large businesses that can afford the not insignificant investment and management required to run a BES infrastructure, and it still only provides rigid "work" and "personal" containers, which I don't think are adequate to achieve what is necessary to lockdown Android for personal privacy.

    Blackphone allows more than 2, user-customizable containers.

    What might change my mind about Priv is if BlackBerry introduces a new form of BES Cloud, which allows for such configurable containers and gives away the service with the Priv or at the very least makes it affordable. That would be my personal minimal requirement. Then we start talking about the other items in my shortlist of intrusive Android elements that need to be put on a leash.







    My Nexus7 (2013) is rooted and running CyanogenMod 11. When it was rooted the "Gapps" were installed but I don't use them at all, have all the Google sync stuff deactivated and in fact have no Google account associated with the device at all. Neither do I keep the kind of sensitive data on it that would normally be on people's smartphones. (Contacts, calendar, SMS history, phone call history, personal photos, GPS is disabled, don't use Google's web browser, don't use Gplay, don't use Gmail, don't keep the device with me and activated when traveling, etc etc)
    It's like $23 a year for the Cloud Services, and the phone is over $600. So it costs like a few cups of Starbucks for a year.

    Posted via CB10
    10-24-15 02:14 PM
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