11-11-15 11:02 PM
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  1. thegioman's Avatar
    Guys, I like many of you am extremely disappointed that BlackBerry 10 is slowly dying with no further development and just a few security patches planned over the coming months. On the face of it BlackBerry is going Android and that's their last throw of the dice for hardware. I hope I'm wrong but everything is pointing to this assumption.

    So, for me, productivity is paramount which is why bb10 is/was perfect for me. Closely followed by privacy/security. How secure bb10 is in reality over any other smart phone has been discussed endless times on this forum. But for now the perception is that BlackBerry provides a higher level of security over other smartphones /OS's.

    I understand that the PRIV will have some bb10 productivity tools, even if it's only the hub. But what I'm trying to understand is how secure will it really be. I don't want Google and Co knowing what I'm browsing, who I'm emailing and txting etc etc. I'm taking security even more seriously now as I believe it will become a necessity moving forward. With that in mind I've been doing some research on the Blackphone 2 and the recently released ARCHOSE granite phone. Interestingly, the Blackphone 2 seems quite a robust device but as we haven't been given any real details on the security aspect of the PRIV it's hard to make any comparisons.

    The way I see it, if BB10 isn't coming out on the PRIV then I want to consider all other os's but need productivity AND security. Does such phone exist or am I asking too much here? Do we have to accept that the genie is out the bottle, Google will always know what we are doing cuz otherwise our apps won't work etc etc. Would love to know what fellow crackberry fans think. Appreciate that our requirements are all slightly different but surely we all want our personal business to remain personal!

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by thegioman; 10-10-15 at 11:03 AM.
    cbzeduser likes this.
    10-10-15 06:05 AM
  2. 6stringriffs's Avatar
    There's always iOS. If not there's plenty of solutions on Android. TOR, VPN, the new LG v10. There's all kinds of apps to solve your problem. You just have to take a look.
    Last edited by 6stringriffs; 10-10-15 at 10:34 AM.
    10-10-15 08:48 AM
  3. tw1g_007's Avatar
    There's always iOS. If other there's plenty of solutions on Android. TOR, VPN, the new LG v10. There's all kinds of apps to solve your problem. You just have to take a look.
    The only time I'd consider using an iPhone is when I'm dead and buried. Oh wait...

     вιaсĸвεггч ᕵαssρσяτ SE via CB10 (AT&T OS 10.3.2.2474)
    LoneStarRed, RWB3325 and saxxman like this.
    10-10-15 09:06 AM
  4. CivilDissident's Avatar
    I'd personally be more inclined to choose the BlackPhone 2 over the PRIV if security was my driving focus as the BlackPhone is not laden with the invasive data-mining known as Google Services... I don't mind running an Android driven OS, but I don't want Google services anywhere on it... BlackPhone 2's Silent OS does an excellent job eliminating the filth and bringing 'privacy' (as much as it reasonably can be brought on a mobile platform anyways) to their device... Personally, I simply refuse to use a device that has any trace of Google services lurking... Unfortunately the PRIV is balls deep in Google... That's a turn off on it's own... I worry BlackBerry's added 'security' they boast about will encompass a method of not being able to remove Google services from the device itself as I would normally do at GO, something that is a dealbreaker for me when looking at droids...

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by CivilDissident; 10-10-15 at 09:41 AM.
    A_Aviator_A and m1kr0 like this.
    10-10-15 09:13 AM
  5. 6stringriffs's Avatar
    Ummm... Blackphone 2 device has Google Play Services.
    10-10-15 10:35 AM
  6. CivilDissident's Avatar
    Ummm... Blackphone 2 device has Google Play Services.
    I wasn't talking simply Google Play Services and all that's associated with it... That can easily be isolated from the Silent OS... I'm talking Google Services as per how it presents itself in stock Android OS... Completely separate functionality... The way Blackphone incorporated Google Play is non-invasive and easily remedied for those like myself who want no part of it... This is why Chen essentially acknowledges the PRIV is slightly inferior to BlackPhone... The PRIV will still be using just a standard stock Android OS with some 'Built by BlackBerry' security features added to the mix... Still (as prior stated) 'balls deep in Google'... Herein lies the fallacy...

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    Last edited by CivilDissident; 10-10-15 at 04:59 PM.
    10-10-15 12:02 PM
  7. joeldf's Avatar
    The PrivatOS in the new Blackphone 2 has Google Services. But, like BlackBerry, it will also have Google for Work partitions - or however all of that is suppose to work.

    Posted via CB10
    Shadowyugi likes this.
    10-10-15 12:23 PM
  8. 6stringriffs's Avatar
    All Blackphone 2 did was the container technique. You can have a separate container for all your private stuff with G-PLAY locked out of it. Then have a separate container with G-PLAY turned on I suppose. But that means you choose to either engage the rest of the world and G-play services on the non-private container or shut yourself out & just use the private container.
    10-10-15 12:55 PM
  9. BB-JAM215's Avatar
    ... I don't want Google and Co knowing what I'm browsing, who I'm emailing and txting etc etc. ...
    If your main privacy/security issue is Google, couldn't you just ignore Google's browser, mail, and message apps and use your own alternatives?
    10-10-15 02:24 PM
  10. thegioman's Avatar
    Google services along with data mining is just one of my concerns. Now a days a lot of the apps want to know /access a lot more than what they need to operate. And if you prevent them from accessing this data they may not function correctly or not at all
    . I understand with Lollipop there is more granularity on what an app can and can't access and with the Blackphone you can have an app run in a separate container without having access to your personal data which is held in a separate container.

    Like I said, I'm not saying Android is any better or worse than BlackBerry or the Blackphone 2 just that access to my personal data etc should only be avaliable at my discretion. Just wondering which OS to jump to once my Z30 reaches EOL

    Found this article quite interesting while researching the various options.....worth a read

    http://www.zdnet.com/product/silent-...-blackphone-2/

    Posted via CB10
    CivilDissident likes this.
    10-10-15 04:41 PM
  11. ayngling's Avatar
    The new Lumia 950 has a replaceable battery, and Microsoft has publicly stated that their focus for Windows 10 Mobile is enterprise and productivity (they also talk about security being very important). Could be worth a look if you have decided not to go for the Priv.
    10-10-15 06:40 PM
  12. BB-JAM215's Avatar
    ... Now a days a lot of the apps want to know /access a lot more than what they need to operate. And if you prevent them from accessing this data they may not function correctly or not at all.

    I understand with Lollipop there is more granularity on what an app can and can't access and with the Blackphone you can have an app run in a separate container without having access to your personal data which is held in a separate container.
    When you said Lollipop has more granularity, did you mean Marshmallow Android version 6? It should be available for the Priv soon, and will allow you to selectively choose permissions much the way the Blackphone does with Silent OS.

    I've yet to find a explanation of just how the Blackphone app containerization solves consumer app permissions issues any better than selectively choosing individual permissions. In fact I've not seen where Silent Circle says it does. Containerization is normally used by device management systems to keep corporate apps and data secure from the consumer world.
    10-10-15 08:11 PM
  13. 6stringriffs's Avatar
    When you said Lollipop has more granularity, did you mean Marshmallow Android version 6? It should be available for the Priv soon, and will allow you to selectively choose permissions much the way the Blackphone does with Silent OS.

    I've yet to find a explanation of just how the Blackphone app containerization solves consumer app permissions issues any better than selectively choosing individual permissions. In fact I've not seen where Silent Circle says it does. Containerization is normally used by device management systems to keep corporate apps and data secure from the consumer world.
    Silent OS can do granular permissions without Android Marshmallow OS. I believe their perimssion functions goes down to the root/kernel level. Much like the way Cyanogenmod did it at the kernel level. It too can do granular permissions. Essentially Silent OS rooted an Android device and embedded their own custom ROM for granular level permissions. Hope BB did the same thing with their PRIV.
    10-10-15 08:44 PM
  14. The Big Picture's Avatar
    I wasn't talking simply Google Play Services and all that's associated with it... That can easily be isolated from the Silent OS... I'm talking Google Services as per how it presents itself in stock Android OS... Completely separate functionality... The way Blackphone incorporated Google Play is non-invasive and easily remedied for those like myself who want no part of it... This is why Chen essentially acknowledges the PRIV is slightly inferior to BlackPhone... The PRIV will still be using just a standard stock Android OS with some 'Built by BlackBerry' security features added to the mix... Still (as prior stated) 'balls deep in Google'... Herein lies the fallacy...

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    I find this interesting because the ability to almost completely remove google from my phone will be a decider for me.

    But how viable is an android phone without google services?

    How does Blackphone 2 allow a user to isolate google services?

    Can you turn off google services completely on the Blackphone 2?

    If so what happens to google service dependent apps?

    Btw BlackBerry's android will not be stock android as it has a GRsecurity kernel. That's pretty much confirmed.

    Posted via CB10
    10-11-15 05:06 PM
  15. Emaderton3's Avatar
    For those of you with security concerns, what OS do you use on your desktops/laptops?

    Posted via CB10
    10-11-15 06:05 PM
  16. skibnik's Avatar
    Google collects your data if you give it permission to do so, same with location services you can turn it off, contacts can be saved locally on your device or sim card. Cloud services are optional not mandatory. Google is not the boogeyman everyone seems to make them out to be lol
    Shadowyugi likes this.
    10-11-15 07:32 PM
  17. 6stringriffs's Avatar
    Google collects your data if you give it permission to do so, same with location services you can turn it off, contacts can be saved locally on your device or sim card. Cloud services are optional not mandatory. Google is not the boogeyman everyone seems to make them out to be lol
    The hardcore BB10'ers do not want to acknowledge this. They would rather spread their brand of FUD. Deep down they know their BB10 is dead or dying. Hell, I sure know from using my Z30. I'm just waiting for all the releases to settle down before I choose my next device (hint: no BB10).

    What's left of the BB10 community are people loath to change. I've come to the conclusion that they themselves are dying. It's what happens in life if you stop growing and changing. You just basically wait for death to come instead of engaging life. In the end BB10 users are a true reflection of their own choice of OS.
    Shadowyugi likes this.
    10-11-15 08:33 PM
  18. Omnitech's Avatar
    I'd personally be more inclined to choose the BlackPhone 2 over the PRIV if security was my driving focus as the BlackPhone is not laden with the invasive data-mining known as Google Services... I don't mind running an Android driven OS, but I don't want Google services anywhere on it...
    I'm sympathetic re: your skepticism about Google services and frameworks, but as someone else noted, the Blackphone2 does indeed contain them (because, uh, for one thing, their own "app store" contains..... 23 apps ), but they can be isolated from other apps/data/services.

    Which I actually think is a good approach (and no indication so far that the Priv will have this capability unless you're linked to a BES), but it also entails a variety of usability compromises.



    This is why Chen essentially acknowledges the PRIV is slightly inferior to BlackPhone...
    My take of Chen's very recent turnabout from bitter sniping at Blackphone to saying positive things about them (multiple times), is that I suspect they are eyeing either a takeover of them, or some sort of partnership deal.



    . I understand with Lollipop there is more granularity on what an app can and can't access...
    Something BlackBerry has had for many years prior to BB10, just so's you know.

    In a certain sense, it's kind of amazing to me that Android has not given users any control whatsoever over app permissions for 7 years now. (But not truly amazing, because anyone that gave a leap about privacy would have been foolish to buy and use a stock Android device anyway, so that was sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts)



    When you said Lollipop has more granularity, did you mean Marshmallow Android version 6? It should be available for the Priv soon, and will allow you to selectively choose permissions much the way the Blackphone does with Silent OS.
    You do realize that you have had control over a lot of the Android app permissions even on BlackBerry 10's own Android runtime since around OS version 10.3 starting in May 2014, yes? (If you are using a regular web browser to read these forums, the link to my article on this is in my posting signature)



    I've yet to find a explanation of just how the Blackphone app containerization solves consumer app permissions issues any better than selectively choosing individual permissions. In fact I've not seen where Silent Circle says it does. Containerization is normally used by device management systems to keep corporate apps and data secure from the consumer world.
    The problems addressed by app permissions and containerization are 2 different (though related) things. I personally think that if you expect to have any sort of security/privacy on an Android device that also includes non-AOSP Google services/frameworks, you need both of those things and more to reach a minimal standard. Then the question is whether you have created a device which is too much of a PITA to use, because of all the effort expended trying to enhance privacy on a platform that was designed to be fundamentally hostile to privacy.
    Shadowyugi likes this.
    10-11-15 11:16 PM
  19. Omnitech's Avatar
    Silent OS can do granular permissions without Android Marshmallow OS. I believe their perimssion functions goes down to the root/kernel level. Much like the way Cyanogenmod did it at the kernel level. It too can do granular permissions. Essentially Silent OS rooted an Android device and embedded their own custom ROM for granular level permissions. Hope BB did the same thing with their PRIV.

    As stated previously, a limited version of this capability has existed in Android from version 4.3 to about version 4.4, though it was hidden and considered "experimental".

    Which I think is one reason why BB10 didn't go beyond v4.3 on their Android runtime. Trying to use 4.4.2 or later would require more extensive building of permission tools (eg like what CyanogenMod did), though BlackBerry 10 does actually have its own Android permissions controlling tool now, which for some things no longer requires installing Android hacks to control.

    (I say "some things" because the BlackBerry tool has some broad categories, which are different than the categories that you get with "App Ops". Android OS actually has a huge number of specific app permissions - something like 50 or more - but up until 6.0, they were only there for the purpose of app developers to decide what to ask for in their apps internally - users didn't get any ability to control them.)
    clickitykeys likes this.
    10-11-15 11:25 PM
  20. Omnitech's Avatar
    But how viable is an android phone without google services?

    How does Blackphone 2 allow a user to isolate google services?

    Can you turn off google services completely on the Blackphone 2?

    If so what happens to google service dependent apps?

    Btw BlackBerry's android will not be stock android as it has a GRsecurity kernel. That's pretty much confirmed.

    Re: the grsecurity kernel, that's apparently just a drop-in replacement for the standard kernel that is supposed to be harder for hackers/malware to exploit. It will not address any of the fundamental elements of Android that are designed by Google specifically to serve its primary business-model of monetizing personal information.

    Re: how it would work on eg a Blackphone, the idea is that for example since we know that Gmail uses a variety of mechanisms to snoop on your activity and send it back to Google, if you isolate it in a container where it does not have access to your contacts, your social media accounts, your text messages, your location data, your web browsing activity and history, your local files and porn collection , details of any computer you connect to the device, details of any storage device or peripheral you connect to your device, and so on - then the aspects of its privacy-slurping proclivities that rely on slurping information from those places would be prevented.

    So then the question is, for example, whether or not you want to have a Gmail app that does not have access to your local contact list or not. Because unfortunately you do not have the ability to fundamentally re-write the Gmail app so it doesn't look at that. It wouldn't be so bad if such apps simply looked at those things when you needed to address an email to a contact. The problem is that they oftentimes snoop through things like that without any particular action on the user's part, and upload things to the Googleplex without your knowledge, and "under the hood". For example Google is well known and openly admits that it mines all of its users Gmail users email content in order to target advertising to them. But it also sells some of this information to the highest bidder. This is Google's fundamental business-model.

    And it's not simply a matter of accessing that data, or even selling/sharing that data. The other problem is that whenever such data is collected - some of it quite sensitive personal material - it now is vulnerable to compromise and attack through a variety of other ways, including various Google "partners" and "partners of partners" and "partners of partners of partners" who may be (and most certainly many are) using fundamentally insecure stewardship and operational practices. It becomes essentially a timebomb waiting to go off, the more data is collected, and the more it is shared.
    clickitykeys likes this.
    10-11-15 11:44 PM
  21. Omnitech's Avatar
    Google collects your data if you give it permission to do so, same with location services you can turn it off, contacts can be saved locally on your device or sim card. Cloud services are optional not mandatory. Google is not the boogeyman everyone seems to make them out to be lol

    Not really. There is a huge amount of data-collection that goes on that does not require any specific permission from the user, especially if they setup a standard Android device using common default settings. Because even if you say no to all the choices given to you regarding data-sharing, tons of other data sharing and collection goes on that you have no such choice over.

    Not that Google is unique in this, but they are probably the single biggest example. What makes the Google collection such a big deal is that Google's various businesses are involved in so many different aspects of society these days that it is almost impossible that your collected data doesn't get correlated and "data mined" in ways that greatly increase the detail of the "digital dossier" that gets compiled about you, and thus the risk of compromise and misuse.
    10-11-15 11:51 PM
  22. BB-JAM215's Avatar
    I'd personally be more inclined to choose the BlackPhone 2 over the PRIV if security was my driving focus as the BlackPhone is not laden with the invasive data-mining known as Google Services...
    Blackphone 2 does have Google Services.
    Attached Thumbnails Privacy; BB PRIV v Blackphone 2 v other-blackphone2-200.jpg  
    10-11-15 11:57 PM
  23. skibnik's Avatar
    Not really. There is a huge amount of data-collection that goes on that does not require any specific permission from the user, especially if they setup a standard Android device using common default settings. Because even if you say no to all the choices given to you regarding data-sharing, tons of other data sharing and collection goes on that you have no such choice over.

    Not that Google is unique in this, but they are probably the single biggest example. What makes the Google collection such a big deal is that Google's various businesses are involved in so many different aspects of society these days that it is almost impossible that your collected data doesn't get correlated and "data mined" in ways that greatly increase the detail of the "digital dossier" that gets compiled about you, and thus the risk of compromise and misuse.
    True but any data Google collects on you is what you volunteerily give to them, its a trade off of what an individual is willing to give in order to get services they want at no cost. All the freemium games and apps on Google Play show the average user is less concerned with privacy and more concerned in having a large and in their minds "free" app ecosystem.
    10-12-15 12:34 AM
  24. Omnitech's Avatar
    True but any data Google collects on you is what you volunteerily give to them..
    I disagree. I am fairly certain that a very large percentage of Android phone users have little idea about all the data that is collected about them in the course of using those portable electronic devices.

    Whether or not they would consent to it is a separate matter. But you cannot imagine "consent" if the person in question doesn't even know what the question is.



    All the freemium games and apps on Google Play show the average user is less concerned with privacy and more concerned in having a large and in their minds "free" app ecosystem.
    Actually I'm still not convinced that when the average user sees an advertisement, they know or assume it is collecting data on their activities.

    That said, it is indeed true that lots of people don't think or care about privacy esp in relation to their electronic device usage. Though I personally would argue that they would care more if they got a proper explanation about what is at stake.
    10-12-15 12:50 AM
  25. bczeetouch's Avatar
    I was a late convert to BlackBerry. My first smartphone was a Google Android. When Google data mining reached the point that it would not let me open my own previously set up apps without signing into Gmail or Facebook, It was the end. I changed carrier and bought a Z10. I don't need many applications ; native apps like Neutron do what I want. The Z10 Is a perfect phone for me. I decommissioned my Nexus phone with a hammer. I will never buy another phone with Google baked in. If this is the case with Priv then my next phone will be Microsoft or Ubuntu.


    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by bczeetouch; 10-12-15 at 12:22 PM.
    lactose likes this.
    10-12-15 02:20 AM
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