[anon(10268214)]

by the time BB10 was released, there was already a major movement away from BB10

Classic Troy.

[Emaderton3]

Classic Troy.

It's true unfortunately. The numbers are out there. People abandoned BlackBerry

[anon(10268214)]

It's true unfortunately. The numbers are out there. People abandoned BlackBerry

It's true there was a massive movement away from it before it was even released? You are obviously no stranger to hyperbole either, my apologies. Please carry on...

[Emaderton3]

It's true there was a massive movement away from it before it was even released? You are obviously no stranger to hyperbole either, my apologies. Please carry on...

People moved to iPhone and Android. The reduced numbers of BlackBerry users before OS10 is well documented. BlackBerry ruled the industry until the iPhone and later Android came out.

No one is saying it's because of OS10. It happened before it came out. It was too late to compete.

[anon(10268214)]

People moved to iPhone and Android. The reduced numbers of BlackBerry users before OS10 is well documented. BlackBerry ruled the industry until the iPhone and later Android came out.

https://popkey.co/m/ygap4-banging+he...ef=search_page

[Emaderton3]

https://popkey.co/m/ygap4-banging+he...ef=search_page

Ok, so what's your narrative?

[Invictus0]

People moved to iPhone and Android. The reduced numbers of BlackBerry users before OS10 is well documented. BlackBerry ruled the industry until the iPhone and later Android came out.

Really? Potential customers perhaps, but BlackBerry's user base was growing right up until BB10's launch. It only began declining afterwards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlackBerry#User_base

[Emaderton3]

Really? Potential customers perhaps, but BlackBerry's user base was growing right up until BB10's launch. It only began declining afterwards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlackBerry#User_base

Ok, if I believe the numbers. CB has never reported such user numbers which they would if they were available in every fiscal statement. People in the forums have been demanding these numbers, but they have been here all along?

Regardless, I may be wrong, but that just means OS10 was even worse than imagined as far as reception. The perception was always that people moved on. Even so, what does it matter now? And why wasn't BlackBerry thriving several years ago then?

[Invictus0]

Ok, if I believe the numbers. CB has never reported such user numbers which they would if they were available in every fiscal statement. People in the forums have been demanding these numbers, but they have been here all along?

Regardless, I may be wrong, but that just means OS10 was even worse than imagined as far as reception. The perception was always that people moved on. Even so, what does it matter now? And why wasn't BlackBerry thriving several years ago then?

There are similar numbers in The Guardian if you need an alternative source, it also explains your questions a bit.

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...erry-john-chen

[jakie55]

I know that I buy BlackBerry or Google because of the security updates. I buy BlackBerry because of the hub and suites.... And the physical keyboard!

[Emaderton3]

There are similar numbers in The Guardian if you need an alternative source, it also explains your questions a bit.

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...erry-john-chen

These numbers are lower than the Wikipedia article. Regardless, I imagine the lack of apps combined with the newness of viable competitors helped doom them. Oh, and decreasing BIS revenue.

Regardless, what is your beef with everyone else like Troy and Conite?

[Invictus0]

These numbers are lower than the Wikipedia article. Regardless, I imagine the lack of apps combined with the newness of viable competitors helped doom them. Oh, and decreasing BIS revenue.

The numbers are about the same on both sites, the graph formating isn't too great. It's possible towards the launch of BB10 that we saw a decrease in some markets but a rise in others that still allowed for overall subscriber growth.

Regardless, what is your beef with everyone else like Troy and Conite?

Excuse me? I don't have beef with anyone.

[Emaderton3]

The numbers are about the same on both sites, the graph formating isn't too great. It's possible towards the launch of BB10 that we saw a decrease in some markets but a rise in others that still allowed for overall subscriber growth.



Excuse me? I don't have beef with anyone.

All right then.

[Invictus0]

All right then.

If I disagree with a specific post I try and present sourced counterpoints but I don't think I've ever resorted to insults or personal attacks as your post seems to suggest.

[Emaderton3]

If I disagree with a specific post I try and present sourced counterpoints but I don't think I've ever resorted to insults or personal attacks as your post seems to suggest.

I can appreciate your point of view and some timely sarcasm. Game on Wayne.

[bb10adopter111]

If TCL has some success, I would imagine they would extend support for 3 years, as it would appeal to the corporate client.

It's just wasted on me personally.

At three years from final "official"sale, I'd be satisfied. Anything less and I'll simply buy the cheapest used phone available and do most of my work on these nifty devices called "computers" that are much more powerful and receive up to10 years' software patching support for security.

If the mobile industry wants me to take their devices seriously, they'll figure out how to support them for the duration of their useful lives. If they can't figure out a business model for that, then I will treat them as the disposable toys there are, IMO of course.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[Invictus0]

If the mobile industry wants me to take their devices seriously, they'll figure out how to support them for the duration of their useful lives. If they can't figure out a business model for that, then I will treat them as the disposable toys there are, IMO of course.

Many OEM's do, vote with your wallet.

[bb10adopter111]

Many OEM's do, vote with your wallet.

Name one. I haven't seen any evidence of that.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[Invictus0]

Name one. I haven't seen any evidence of that.

Posted with my trusty Z10

Apple supports their devices with 5 years of OS updates. Android is slower to catch up but Google, Essential, and Samsung (via Enterprise Edition) have switched to a three year security patch cycle. With recent changes to Android (Treble, extended kernel support) I'm sure some Android OEM's will continue expanding support if there's demand.

[bb10adopter111]

Apple supports their devices with 5 years of OS updates. Android is slower to catch up but Google, Essential, and Samsung (via Enterprise Edition) have switched to a three year security patch cycle. With recent changes to Android (Treble, extended kernel support) I'm sure some Android OEM's will continue expanding support if there's demand.

Apple is the only one with a "professional" level of support. Unfortunately for me, not even free, in person lifetime support by attractive members of my preferred gender could induce me to use iOS on a daily basis.

Android had been evolving so quickly that I understand why the support is not guaranteed for more than a couple of years today. But that's a weakness that they need to address to earn my business over the long term.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[Invictus0]

Apple is the only one with a "professional" level of support. Unfortunately for me, not even free, in person lifetime support by attractive members of my preferred gender could induce me to use iOS on a daily basis.

Android had been evolving so quickly that I understand why the support is not guaranteed for more than a couple of years today. But that's a weakness that they need to address to earn my business over the long term.

Posted with my trusty Z10

I know what you mean, I like iOS and how well Apple supports it but I personally feel my productivity take a hit when I use it. I avoid Android flagships now because 2-3 years of support for the cost isn't a great deal for me, I've compromised with midrange Android devices as the cost per year is better and I don't feel I'm losing much with the "downgrade".

We're in a post BB10 and Windows Phone world now so we just have to get used to shorter support cycles until OEM's (hopefully) catch up.

[conite]

I know what you mean, I like iOS and how well Apple supports it but I personally feel my productivity take a hit when I use it. I avoid Android flagships now because 2-3 years of support for the cost isn't a great deal for me, I've compromised with midrange Android devices as the cost per year is better and I don't feel I'm losing much with the "downgrade".

We're in a post BB10 and Windows Phone world now so we just have to get used to shorter support cycles until OEM's (hopefully) catch up.

Apple is the only one with a "professional" level of support. Unfortunately for me, not even free, in person lifetime support by attractive members of my preferred gender could induce me to use iOS on a daily basis.

Android had been evolving so quickly that I understand why the support is not guaranteed for more than a couple of years today. But that's a weakness that they need to address to earn my business over the long term.

Posted with my trusty Z10

Ya, it's all the same.

Buy an $850 iPhone that gives you 5 years of support, or two very capable Android mid-range devices that each give 2-3 years of support - and probably equal average performance over the whole 5 year period.

[Invictus0]

Ya, it's all the same.

Buy an $850 iPhone that gives you 5 years of support, or two very capable Android mid-range devices that each give 2-3 years of support - and probably equal average performance over the whole 5 year period.

Definitely, unless you want a device that can play games at the highest settings a midrange Android device from a good OEM is more than capable these days.

[bb10adopter111]

Ya, it's all the same.

Buy an $850 iPhone that gives you 5 years of support, or two very capable Android mid-range devices that each give 2-3 years of support - and probably equal average performance over the whole 5 year period.

That's a pretty accurate description of the tradeoffs, with a few caveats:

1) The iPhone's performance after 5 years will likely be terrible for mainstream users due to the battery and Apple's seeming inability to control resource requirements on each succeeding version of its software. That's how they make their older devices obsolete. The two midrange Androids are a better value, for me.

2) I don't see either of these two choices as being terribly appealing. I can get better value out of buying a portable Windows 2-in-one with LTE, for example. The only thing missing is call control for phone calls so that I can leave the computer in my bag.

Fundamentally, I see the industry desperately trying to maintain revenue growth without meaningfully increasing the productivity of the products. When it comes to income-generating productivity, I don't see the gains to justify the expenses.

So, while I recognize that mobile phones are a major force driving changes in society and consumer behavior, they do not seem to be increasing productivity the way that other computer revolutions have.

They just seem more and more like semi-disposable consumer electronics products, as can be seen from the "innovations" they tout: better cameras, water resistance, etc.

[Troy Tiscareno]

Really? Potential customers perhaps, but BlackBerry's user base was growing right up until BB10's launch. It only began declining afterwards.

BBOS's decline in developed markets started in 2010 - that's when growth started to reverse in those markets (North America, Europe, and east Asia). Overall userbase continued to grow for a couple more years because used and entry/mid-level phones were being sold into emerging markets to individuals in large numbers (Africa, South Asia, South America) - but BB's earnings potential from these customers was going to be very limited - there wasn't going to be BES revenue or other ways to monetize beyond BIS fees (which were reduced in those countries compared to developed markets). It also meant that most of those markets wouldn't be able to move to BB10, which was going to be priced at the high end - out of reach for the emerging markets who could afford a used Pearl or Curve.

While emerging market users certainly were helpful for BB at the time (2008-2012), they were never going to be helpful for BB10 in any significant numbers (and that's exactly how things came to pass). But had those users not existed at all, the story would have been more obviously bad for BB starting in 2010, when sales in developed markets began to drop for the first time after 10 years of constant growth.

Losing The Signal covers some of that story, though it's not the focus of the book. Anyway, BB10 was not the cause of the decline - the cause of the decline was not having a 2nd-Gen OS/platform ready to go by 2009 at the latest. BBOS was a 1st-Gen OS, and like all the other 1st-Gen OSs, was originally developed for much simpler devices and wasn't able to be scaled up for more powerful needs or significantly more powerful hardware. It was the TIMING that was the most critical element - and BB was way, WAY outside the window of time where they might have been able to be successful. That window was really 2007-2009, and the only SO that launched in that window (following the iPhone's announcement) were Android and WebOS. Developers took a look at those platforms and overwhelmingly chose Android, for a number of reasons. HP pulled the plug on WebOS only a couple of years later (Aug 2011) when it became clear that developers had chosen Android, and WebOS wasn't going to be competitive.

By 2010, the vast majority of people in developed markets began transitioning (mostly from feature phones, but also from the Gen 1 smartphones of the day: BB, Palm, Nokia, WinMo, Symbian, etc.) to either iOS or Android, with those numbers increasing through 2012. All that happened before BB10 was released in early 2013.

This is all well-established timeline here; nothing new.