08-19-15 06:50 AM
51 123
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  1. lawguyman's Avatar
    By now it seems like BlackBerry will be releasing an Android Slider. Let's not get into that here. It seems like it is going to happen.

    Many here would prefer a BB10 slider. There seem to be obstacles to this if BlackBerry is really going down the Android road. In short, this is because in order to obtain a license from Google for Google Services for that Android Slider, BlackBerry would need to sign an agreement that restricts BlackBerry's ability to release non-approved phones that run Android. Here is a link to one of those agreements: www.benedelman.org/docs/samsung-mada.pdf

    Assuming that the basic terms of this agreement have not changed, Blackberry would have to agree not to "take any actions that may cause or result in the fragmentation of Android." (section 2.2). Also, the "device" to which the license is given is defined as a device "using only the Android operating system." (section 1.9).. The device would also have to pass a compatibility test. (section 2.7).

    This creates problems for BB10. BB10 runs an incompatible version of Android in the Android runtime. It would not pass a compatibility test. It also runs an OS in addition to Android, BB10.

    Given these restrictions, is there any way that BlackBerry could continue to sell BB10 phones that contain an Android runtime. Even better, could that BB10 phone get Google Services?

    Maybe.

    Chen said that Apps are one of BlackBerry's Achilles heel. He said that "we're doing two things about it."
    See here beginning at 1:20: Something brewing for Blackberry: BBRY CEO

    Two things? One would be to launch Android phones. Maybe the second is to make BB10 fully compatible with Android.

    How could this happen?

    BlackBerry may have been working on making the BB10 Android runtime compatible for some time. Although the Android Runtime Roadmap no longer seems to be up (Release roadmap - Runtime for Android apps - BlackBerry Developer) it at one time said that the goal was to support all Android APIs.

    If BB10 runtime becomes fully compatible, Google may let the runtime slide and license GPS to BlackBerry for the Android Slider (but not for BB10). Google has licensed its services to companies like Xiaomi even though Xiaomi doesn't support Google Play Services in China. See here: https://support.google.com/googlepla.../1727131?hl=en
    Why does Google let Xiaomi slide? Because Chinese Xiaomi devices are technically Android Compatible, GPS are simply not installed on them. It is easy enough to install GPS on a Chines Xiaomi phone. See here:

    Note that it seems unlikely that Google would permit BlackBerry to install GPS on BB10 because BB10 does not run "only the Android operating system." But, it may be that while BB10 phones do not get licensed to run GPS, Play Services could be installable on them in the future much like GPS are installable on Cyanogen devices or on Non-Chinese Xiaomi phones. A developer could probably make a "one click" installer option.

    In reality, this doesn't do BB10 much good in the market because it will still require effort to install Google Play Services on a BB10 phone. But, once installed, it should make the Android experience on a BB10 phone much better than it is now.
    RubenDM, dejanh and bungaboy like this.
    08-16-15 12:40 PM
  2. thurask's Avatar
    In reality, this doesn't do BB10 much good in the market because it will still require effort to install Google Play Services on a BB10 phone. But, once installed, it should make the Android experience on a BB10 phone much better than it is now.
    Anything that requires the user to expend effort is a pointless cause, although the greater cooperation between BlackBerry and Google (cf. that Android Secured business) is hopefully indicative of something like this.

    Still, much more realistic than GPS out of the box on BB10, or some certified-kosher-Android/BB10 dual boot system.
    delgadom, bungaboy and mkelley65 like this.
    08-16-15 12:55 PM
  3. lawguyman's Avatar

    Still, much more realistic than GPS out of the box on BB10, or some certified-kosher-Android/BB10 dual boot system.
    I do not think dual boot would be permissible because the device would not run "only the Android operating system."

    I suppose you can interpret this to mean "at the same time." But I don't think this is what Google had in mind.

    Posted via CB10
    08-16-15 01:02 PM
  4. thurask's Avatar
    I do not think dual boot would be permissible because the device would not run "only the Android operating system."

    I suppose you can interpret this to mean "at the same time." But I don't think this is what Google had in mind.

    Posted via CB10
    And that's why it's a dumb idea.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    08-16-15 01:04 PM
  5. conite's Avatar
    It's possible that BB10 is so off the radar that its Runtime may be ignored by the OHA completely. BlackBerry could certainly run with that until somebody notices and subsequently cares enough to send them a lawyer's letter.

    Or better yet, allow the entire Android Runtime to be an unofficial download, and not even shipped with new BB10 devices.

    PassportSQW100-4/10.3.2.2339
    08-16-15 01:11 PM
  6. lawguyman's Avatar
    And that's why it's a dumb idea.
    It is possible that BlackBerry had compatibility as the plan and sunk resources into it. The goal would be a user installed GPS add on. Chen realized that this wasn't the answer and went forward with Android plus BB10/GPS add on.

    I'm just saying that this is plausible. I still think that BB10 is not coming to Slider.

    Posted via CB10
    08-16-15 01:26 PM
  7. lawguyman's Avatar
    It's possible that BB10 is so off the radar that its Runtime may be ignored by the OHA completely. BlackBerry could certainly run with that until somebody notices and subsequently cares enough to send them a lawyer's letter.

    Or better yet, allow the entire Android Runtime to be an unofficial download, and not even shipped with new BB10 devices.

    PassportSQW100-4/10.3.2.2339
    I doubt it would be ignored. When BlackBerry and Google sat down to talk, why would Google overlook it? I would think that both parties would like to find away around it. What I propose is a plausible way around the issue.

    BlackBerry doesn't get any special treatment It is treated like everyone else.

    Posted via CB10
    08-16-15 01:30 PM
  8. Ment's Avatar
    It's possible that BB10 is so off the radar that its Runtime may be ignored by the OHA completely. BlackBerry could certainly run with that until somebody notices and subsequently cares enough to send them a lawyer's letter.

    Or better yet, allow the entire Android Runtime to be an unofficial download, and not even shipped with new BB10 devices.

    PassportSQW100-4/10.3.2.2339
    BB10 should just ditch the runtime and use its developmental resources into compatibility with ACL like Tizen. They can then make Android phones with the Blackberry Experience built in and if BB10 users want to use android apps it will download ACL and if not they have a pure BB10 device.
    08-16-15 01:30 PM
  9. lawguyman's Avatar
    BB10 should just ditch the runtime and use its developmental resources into compatibility with ACL like Tizen. They can then make Android phones with the Blackberry Experience built in and if BB10 users want to use android apps it will download ACL and if not they have a pure BB10 device.
    If BlackBerry can't make its runtime fully compatible, it would have to be a downloadable option, like on Tizen.

    Posted via CB10
    08-16-15 01:37 PM
  10. Uzi's Avatar
    Interesting, we'll see in coming months. I just hope that slider will sell like hell make the company afloat again

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2339
    spyeagle and bungaboy like this.
    08-16-15 01:40 PM
  11. JulesDB's Avatar
    I am not sure that Android or Google Services could make BlackBerry interesting again.

    BlackBerry desperately needs a good marketing, so it needs money to advertise what it does.

    Elsewhere it's all time and efforts lost...

    Posted via CB10
    janzeeschuimers likes this.
    08-16-15 02:38 PM
  12. Kristijonas's Avatar
    Its marketing, not the OS

    If BlackBerry actally goes android - I hope it will default. It tricked us with Playbook, then bb10... Such uncertanty is killing thr company, it has no vision, no road map so how can anyone trust their money with it? I wouldnt even bet on BES now because of the mess Chen is doing, he might say one day that he has decided to ditch it too and make BlackBerry a 100 employee company
    they should hire at least a single marketing guy first...

    Putin Huylo
    08-16-15 02:46 PM
  13. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    By now it seems like BlackBerry will be releasing an Android Slider. Let's not get into that here. It seems like it is going to happen.

    Many here would prefer a BB10 slider. There seem to be obstacles to this if BlackBerry is really going down the Android road. In short, this is because in order to obtain a license from Google for Google Services for that Android Slider, BlackBerry would need to sign an agreement that restricts BlackBerry's ability to release non-approved phones that run Android. Here is a link to one of those agreements: www.benedelman.org/docs/samsung-mada.pdf

    Assuming that the basic terms of this agreement have not changed, Blackberry would have to agree not to "take any actions that may cause or result in the fragmentation of Android." (section 2.2). Also, the "device" to which the license is given is defined as a device "using only the Android operating system." (section 1.9).. The device would also have to pass a compatibility test. (section 2.7).

    This creates problems for BB10. BB10 runs an incompatible version of Android in the Android runtime. It would not pass a compatibility test. It also runs an OS in addition to Android, BB10.

    Given these restrictions, is there any way that BlackBerry could continue to sell BB10 phones that contain an Android runtime. Even better, could that BB10 phone get Google Services?

    Maybe.

    Chen said that Apps are one of BlackBerry's Achilles heel. He said that "we're doing two things about it."
    See here beginning at 1:20: Something brewing for Blackberry: BBRY CEO

    Two things? One would be to launch Android phones. Maybe the second is to make BB10 fully compatible with Android.

    How could this happen?

    BlackBerry may have been working on making the BB10 Android runtime compatible for some time. Although the Android Runtime Roadmap no longer seems to be up (Release roadmap - Runtime for Android apps - BlackBerry Developer) it at one time said that the goal was to support all Android APIs.

    If BB10 runtime becomes fully compatible, Google may let the runtime slide and license GPS to BlackBerry for the Android Slider (but not for BB10). Google has licensed its services to companies like Xiaomi even though Xiaomi doesn't support Google Play Services in China. See here: https://support.google.com/googlepla.../1727131?hl=en
    Why does Google let Xiaomi slide? Because Chinese Xiaomi devices are technically Android Compatible, GPS are simply not installed on them. It is easy enough to install GPS on a Chines Xiaomi phone. See here:

    Note that it seems unlikely that Google would permit BlackBerry to install GPS on BB10 because BB10 does not run "only the Android operating system." But, it may be that while BB10 phones do not get licensed to run GPS, Play Services could be installable on them in the future much like GPS are installable on Cyanogen devices or on Non-Chinese Xiaomi phones. A developer could probably make a "one click" installer option.

    In reality, this doesn't do BB10 much good in the market because it will still require effort to install Google Play Services on a BB10 phone. But, once installed, it should make the Android experience on a BB10 phone much better than it is now.
    It's a nice idea but I don't see it happening. What if Samsung tried to do the same thing with Tizen? And that is the real problem. It's the legal precedent that would be set by ignoring the BB10 android RT.

    The most realistic scenario is that we would see the android RT get stripped from any future BB10 devices. Those devices would be QWERTY only and a new one would be released once every couple of years solely for their highly security conscious customers (G7). For everyone else they would offer QWERTY and touch Android devices with the "BlackBerry experience". And when that fails they will be out of the HW business almost completely and will then spend their resources securing iOS, Samsung, and Windows phone devices.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    08-16-15 03:01 PM
  14. lawguyman's Avatar
    It's a nice idea but I don't see it happening. What if Samsung tried to do the same thing with Tizen? And that is the real problem. It's the legal precedent that would be set by ignoring the BB10 android RT.

    The most realistic scenario is that we would see the android RT get stripped from any future BB10 devices. Those devices would be QWERTY only and a new one would be released once every couple of years solely for their highly security conscious customers (G7). For everyone else they would offer QWERTY and touch Android devices with the "BlackBerry experience". And when that fails they will be out of the HW business almost completely and will then spend their resources securing iOS, Samsung, and Windows phone devices.
    I think from Google's perspective, it wants all Android phones to be compatible. It doesn't want an "Android" app that will run on some phones and not on others. That is why it insists on the compatibility test.

    Tizen may be compatible. It may not be. Assuming it is compatible, I doubt that Google cares that much. Tizen still relies on Google for Apps so it is the opposite of what Google is trying to prevent: incompatibility. Tizen isn't going anywhere without Android apps. That is why Samsung isn't doing much with it. Samsung knows it's a dead end.

    I think that BB10 is a dead end too, unfortunately. BlackBerry is hopefully going to give us a good BlackBerry experience on Android. I don't see much downside there, especially if it allows BlackBerry to continue to make phones.

    BlackBerry is bringing secusmart to Android too so BB10 will hold on long enough until Android is secure.


    Posted via CB10
    08-16-15 03:49 PM
  15. Vistaus's Avatar
    On my Jolla Phone it's easy to install Google Play Services and Store even though the phone is running SailfishOS rather than Android (it has an Android runtime, just like BB10) so I don't see why BB10 is different in that regard? If SOS can do it, then BB10 can also make it work?
    08-16-15 04:18 PM
  16. Dat Gui's Avatar
    By now it seems like BlackBerry will be releasing an Android Slider. Let's not get into that here. It seems like it is going to happen.

    Many here would prefer a BB10 slider. There seem to be obstacles to this if BlackBerry is really going down the Android road. In short, this is because in order to obtain a license from Google for Google Services for that Android Slider, BlackBerry would need to sign an agreement that restricts BlackBerry's ability to release non-approved phones that run Android. Here is a link to one of those agreements: www.benedelman.org/docs/samsung-mada.pdf

    Assuming that the basic terms of this agreement have not changed, Blackberry would have to agree not to "take any actions that may cause or result in the fragmentation of Android." (section 2.2). Also, the "device" to which the license is given is defined as a device "using only the Android operating system." (section 1.9).. The device would also have to pass a compatibility test. (section 2.7).

    This creates problems for BB10. BB10 runs an incompatible version of Android in the Android runtime. It would not pass a compatibility test. It also runs an OS in addition to Android, BB10.

    Given these restrictions, is there any way that BlackBerry could continue to sell BB10 phones that contain an Android runtime. Even better, could that BB10 phone get Google Services?

    Maybe.

    Chen said that Apps are one of BlackBerry's Achilles heel. He said that "we're doing two things about it."
    See here beginning at 1:20: Something brewing for Blackberry: BBRY CEO

    Two things? One would be to launch Android phones. Maybe the second is to make BB10 fully compatible with Android.

    How could this happen?

    BlackBerry may have been working on making the BB10 Android runtime compatible for some time. Although the Android Runtime Roadmap no longer seems to be up (Release roadmap - Runtime for Android apps - BlackBerry Developer) it at one time said that the goal was to support all Android APIs.

    If BB10 runtime becomes fully compatible, Google may let the runtime slide and license GPS to BlackBerry for the Android Slider (but not for BB10). Google has licensed its services to companies like Xiaomi even though Xiaomi doesn't support Google Play Services in China. See here: https://support.google.com/googlepla.../1727131?hl=en
    Why does Google let Xiaomi slide? Because Chinese Xiaomi devices are technically Android Compatible, GPS are simply not installed on them. It is easy enough to install GPS on a Chines Xiaomi phone. See here:

    Note that it seems unlikely that Google would permit BlackBerry to install GPS on BB10 because BB10 does not run "only the Android operating system." But, it may be that while BB10 phones do not get licensed to run GPS, Play Services could be installable on them in the future much like GPS are installable on Cyanogen devices or on Non-Chinese Xiaomi phones. A developer could probably make a "one click" installer option.

    In reality, this doesn't do BB10 much good in the market because it will still require effort to install Google Play Services on a BB10 phone. But, once installed, it should make the Android experience on a BB10 phone much better than it is now.
    Samsung is selling Tizen phones while selling andriod phones as well

    Posted via CB10
    08-16-15 05:05 PM
  17. Dat Gui's Avatar
    I do not think dual boot would be permissible because the device would not run "only the Android operating system."

    I suppose you can interpret this to mean "at the same time." But I don't think this is what Google had in mind.

    Posted via CB10
    A dual boot would not be possible because google wouldn't allow it, remember those windows/andriod tablets. Samsung, acer all showed them off a few years ago and they never got released, why because of google. A dual os phone is out of the question.

    Posted via CB10
    08-16-15 05:08 PM
  18. Dat Gui's Avatar
    Interesting, we'll see in coming months. I just hope that slider will sell like hell make the company afloat again

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2339
    It seems like it will be a hit or miss. On one note you could potentially gain a lot of android users, on the same note you could be cutting the rope that ties you to your loyal fanbase that's been with you during the worse of times. I know if I was super loyal and BlackBerry broke my trust and went back to bb10 because android failed, I'm not coming back, it's like a cheating spouse.

    Posted via CB10
    08-16-15 05:12 PM
  19. lawguyman's Avatar
    Samsung is selling Tizen phones while selling andriod phones as well

    Posted via CB10
    Tizen phones aren't shipped with the ability to run Android Apps. It comes from a user enabled download.

    Posted via CB10
    08-16-15 05:17 PM
  20. anon(153966)'s Avatar
    Some very good argumentative points here. I personally believe, it would simply be beneficial for BlackBerry to offer\make it easier to install Google Play. With that, those that MUST have certain apps from Google Play, can do so at a click of a button.

    As someone else said, 'most' users are not going to want to jump through multiple steps merely to install a basic app that isn't in BlackBerry World. The 'advanced' users; sure they would, as they do now, but...
    08-16-15 05:22 PM
  21. RubenDM's Avatar
    Some very good argumentative points here. I personally believe, it would simply be beneficial for BlackBerry to offer\make it easier to install Google Play. With that, those that MUST have certain apps from Google Play, can do so at a click of a button.

    As someone else said, 'most' users are not going to want to jump through multiple steps merely to install a basic app that isn't in BlackBerry World. The 'advanced' users; sure they would, as they do now, but...
    this...
    08-17-15 05:37 AM
  22. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    1st forget what you want.... as most of us are consumers, we aren't the target. Enterprise is BlackBerry's primary target audience. And for them it has to work OUT OF THE BOX and it has to be something that IT can easily and securely push out and manage. Not sure if SNAP or Cobalt's solutions are working to well in an enterprise environment. Hacks, Patches, Against TOS.... that isn't gong to get far in the business world.

    I still think that full Android with a secured work space that is the simplest option at this point. No it might not get the same DoD certifications... but how many of those phones are they selling today anyway? If there is enough demand... then BB10 without a runtime is an option.

    Originally the point of BB10 was so BlackBerry could make money on the ecosystem - well they closed the music and movie stores, the app store is basically for utilities. So really why continue at this point?

    Right now I don't discount anything... but I don't give the BB10 with full Google Play very good odds.
    08-17-15 11:08 AM
  23. dejanh's Avatar
    If you were to look through all of my past threads/posts you will see that this is basically exactly what I was suggesting that BlackBerry should do quite a long time ago, and in fact, I used Xiaomi as an example. The bottom line is that Google cannot prevent a platform from being "compatible" with Google Play Services and cannot prevent the end user from installing Google Play Services on the said platform. This is why Xiaomi devices don't ship with Google Play Services but can have them installed by the end user, when desired. BlackBerry intentionally crippled its runtime to try to build hooks into its own services in order to achieve tighter integration. After all, who would use BlackBerry maps if by default every Android app that was installed was going to Google Maps instead? BlackBerry can remove the hurdles to installing and using Google Play Services, and simply let the end user handle the install.

    With all of that said, I do think that ultimately a better solution would probably be a heavily customized Android device with BlackBerry Experience Suite. It eliminates the dual-personality thing currently going on with BlackBerry 10 and simplifies things for the end user.

    On my Jolla Phone it's easy to install Google Play Services and Store even though the phone is running SailfishOS rather than Android (it has an Android runtime, just like BB10) so I don't see why BB10 is different in that regard? If SOS can do it, then BB10 can also make it work?
    Exactly. See my points above.
    08-17-15 12:25 PM
  24. dejanh's Avatar
    Samsung is selling Tizen phones while selling andriod phones as well

    Posted via CB10
    To this point, HTC is/was also selling Windows phones, as is/was Samsung. There is nothing that restricts a vendor from selling phones with another OS that is not Android even if they are a member of OHA.
    08-17-15 12:29 PM
  25. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    If you were to look through all of my past threads/posts you will see that this is basically exactly what I was suggesting that BlackBerry should do quite a long time ago, and in fact, I used Xiaomi as an example. The bottom line is that Google cannot prevent a platform from being "compatible" with Google Play Services and cannot prevent the end user from installing Google Play Services on the said platform. This is why Xiaomi devices don't ship with Google Play Services but can have them installed by the end user, when desired. BlackBerry intentionally crippled its runtime to try to build hooks into its own services in order to achieve tighter integration. After all, who would use BlackBerry maps if by default every Android app that was installed was going to Google Maps instead? BlackBerry can remove the hurdles to installing and using Google Play Services, and simply let the end user handle the install.

    With all of that said, I do think that ultimately a better solution would probably be a heavily customized Android device with BlackBerry Experience Suite. It eliminates the dual-personality thing currently going on with BlackBerry 10 and simplifies things for the end user.
    For the small niche of us that enjoy using BB10 as an operating system I would welcome it if BB implemented their Android RT like Xiaomi did. This would clear the way for them to make a pure Google certified Android phone while still giving BB10 enthusiasts the option to stick with what they like.

    In terms of a heavily customized BlackBerry android based device, I don't see it happening. I was under the impression that Google wanted the OEM's to scale back their UI's. I could be wrong about that though.
    08-17-15 12:36 PM
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